Seattle, WA - OTA - Page 259

I played around with antennae some more today and found that I could get solid reception on 11 in my upstairs room simply by hanging up one of those old "T"-style jobs with the flat white translucent sheathing.

But with the antenna that's been in my attic since forever, my TV's tuner shows 11's signal bouncing around between 50 and 75% with break-up... basically behaving like being on the fringe of my reception area. My HDHR gives more info, showing 100% signal but poor signal quality and 0% symbol quality.

Very strange... 9 and 22 are perfect, and are coming from the same place. I guess that 12.5Kw signal is just too weak.

But I'm in Kirkland with clear line of sight over the lake to Seattle. I need to get an antenna guy out here to adjust/boost things.

Channel 13 is a VHF signal, whereas channel 18 was a UHF signal. UHF signals require more power to cover the same area.

30 kW is the power limit for KCPQ on channel 13 at their 2000' height above average terrain.

- Trip

MBC 44.4 (the Korean-language station) has extremely quiet audio on my Zenith DTT901 converter box, but sounds normal on my CM-7000. has anyone else experienced this?

To those who have requested the modifications to the Channel Master 4221HD to improve reception of Channels 9, 11, and 13:
Give me a day or two to write up the mods and I will post the writeup here.

Richard
KR7L

Keep in mind when comparing analog and digital power levels that it's a bit like comparing apples and oranges. They're both fruits. That's about where it ends.

Let's talk about KCTS since it is what I know. Unless otherwise indicated all power levels are quoted are for ERP

The comission bases coverage, most of the time, on something referred to as a 90/90 curve. That means that 90% of the people are able to recover the signal 90% of the time. They call this city grade coverage. Then there's a 50/50 curve. 50% of the people 50% of the time. They call this grade 'B.'

In order to achieve this with analog I needed to maintain a 48db (At least I think it was 48db, I'll look it up.) signal to noise ratio. In order to acheive it with digital I need to maintain a 15db signal to noise ratio at any given location.

Using computer modeling, longley rice curves and, occasionaly, a ouji board, it was decided that I needed 318kw of power on analog and 7.3kw of power on digital. After being granted a CP to construct 7.3kw the Comission decided to allow stations to apply for "maximization" of their signals. Short version of the definition: "I could crank up the power until I started to interfere with signals from other stations." In my case that turned out to be 21.7kw.

Also, power, as measured for analog TV stations, is spread across the entire visual carrier. It was only at the tip of analog sync that I was actually making 318kw. Most of the time the average power the transmitter was producing was signigcantly lower. In digital it's spread across the entire 6 meg channel but the transmitter is producing something close to full power almost the entire time.

I don't know if any of this makes any sense and I'll try and answer whatever questions I can. Also, keep in mind, 10 million watts or 10 milliwatts, it is all about the receivers ability to recover the bit stream. If there is something wrong with the bit stream itself then all the power in the world won't makes a whoots worth of difference.

Good explanation Tim. Here is a couple more tidbits from the original digital assumptions:

Over 50 years ago when the original analog power/coverages were determined (Grade A/B) the assumption was the average consumer receiving TV Over The Air would have a horizontal receive antenna mounted at an average height of 35 feet Above Ground Level with a pre-assumed amount of receive antenna gain for VHF (later UHF). Fast forward to 1998, that same assumption was used when determining DTV coverage, plus the fact that digital modulation propagates differently than analog signals.

In regards to signal reception, here is where things get tricky.. Whereas everyone who has commented about the differences between VHF and UHF here is correct, there is one physics based factor to consider; that being field strength is field strength no matter what the frequency.

Even though VHF does propagate further than UHF, (transmit antenna to receive antenna) the field strength is less and the wavelength longer for VHF. The longer wavelength of VHF signals mean the greater chance of blockage from building structures and more opt to interference from electrical devices (aka impulse noise). A good example of this effect can be seen with AM radio signals going away under tunnels or in concrete buildings. The longer wavelength at AM broadcast frequencies is too long to get through the rebar grid in concrete walls. The higher-shorter wavelength FM radio, will penetrate overpasses and tunnels with no problem.

About 1-1/2 years ago I was visiting a channel 5 analog station in the South, who was planning to migrate back from their high-UHF channel back to their VHF channel 5 on the transition date. Their temporary transition DTV channel was something like channel 55 UHF, operating at an Effective Radiated Power of 1,000kW. This particular station example post-transition DTV power using the FCC coverage calculations to duplicate the channel 55 UHF and the old analog channel 5 100kw coverage was post-transition DTV at 10kW. I saw this scenario as a problem, because the reality is that probably less than 50% of the new DTV viewers would be using a suitable outdoor antenna mounted at 35 feet AGL, but rather would be using rabbit-ear antennas or ones mounted in the attic. The high power UHF station with a shorter wavelength would reach viewers in buildings more effectively than the lower field strength channel 5 VHF. By the looks of the scores of unhappy comments both on the AVS forum and the angry calls coming into the station, it appears that the laws of physics once again won out over the assumptions of the FCC.

The other challenge is that noise from electrical and consumer electronic devices create noise at VHF frequencies. When your receiver is trying to read a 6 MHZ wide signal using rabbit ears, then your neighbor fires up a blender, the noise can cause loss of signal because the low field strength from a station 20 miles away can't compete with a "spark-gap transmitter" 50 yards away.

The point is there are pro and cons to either spectrum. High power UHF stations with high field strength (assuming no multipath or overloading of a receiver close in) have the advantage in structure penetration. VHF has the advantage in pure distance per watt (assuming the frequency isn't too low and the receive antenna isn't indoors).

Thanks much Richard.
Maybe I'll be able to get 13 again not that they deserve it.

tschall wrote:

As reception reports come into this forum and elsewhere we, as broadcasters, would find it extremly valuable to know where you are. Exact street addresses are not necessary but city, town, neighborhood, that sort of thing would sure be nice.

tim
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Tim,
I'm on the southwest corner of QA Hill overlooking Pier 91, under the 'boulevard' retaining wall and although your UHF signal worked for me I no longer receive you nor channel 11, but I haven't built a high-band VHF antenna to try to receive you yet. For my first attempt, I'll build a 5 or 6 bar 'cut-to-channel 10' Yagi centered at 196 mHz and hopefully capture both signals.

I recently built a 15 bar Yagi for Channel 12 (35) a 12 bar Yagi for Channels 4 & 7 (38/39) and an 11 bar Yagi for 5 (48) with good results. Wish me luck!
Jim in Seattle

I'm down in PDX this weekend. I noticed their local ION affiliate KPXG is 720p. I watched "Assassins" in HD. Any idea when/if KWPX will broadcast in HD?

quarque wrote:

Jim - you are one determined guy! I wish I could help you with a source but I've done almost nothing with dishes or mounts. Some thoughts come to mind: home centers that sell antennas, Radio Shack, abandoned houses with unused dishes (?). Good luck!

P.S. the tilting idea has not been widely accepted on AVS but I know it works in some situations.
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Larry,
I built simple 10 degree mounts to tilt two Yagis and I'll test them soon. It will be interesting to see if there is any improvement in signal reception. Again Guys, thanks for the help. Photo is attached below.
Jim

http://www.ionmarketplace.com/articl...ID=0&indID=142

It looks like Seattle is in the second phase for ION HD, sometime in 2009.
They are also going to broadcast Qubo and ION Life in HD

Not over the air, they're not. They'll be available to cable in HD, if any cable company wants to carry them in HD.

- Trip

Greetings All:

It's been awhile since I've logged into the AVS forums, so long that I didn't have my user name and pswd, so I created a new one so as to answer some questions, and clear up any miss-information that has been posted here.

Sometimes people who work for us don't have all the answers because we don't tell them what we are doing until we actually make a final decision TO do it. Things change very fast around here, and what was a plan today can go away tomorrow...That's just the way it is. It's not a matter of employees not knowing what is going on, it's a matter of what we as managers want disseminated. Rumors posted on public forums easily become to be considered as fact, just because it was posted. So, you need to take what gets posted with a grain of salt as the people posting may not really be employees of the station, or they may be disgruntled former employees. SO, believe what you read at your own risk, and know that we will not be held to anything just because it was posted here and people thought it was fact.

KCPQ broadcasts on VHF channel 13, from our tower on Gold Mountain in Bremerton, WA as it always has. We will not be moving the transmitter, nor will we turn back on the transitional digital channel that were were on previously...UHF channel 18 is gone forever.

KMYQ broadcasts on UHF channel 25 from our tower on Capitol Hill. It displays on digital receivers as 22-1. There will be no change to KMYQ other than increasing power to 1MW.

We are petitioning for a digital translater for KCPQ that would be broadcast from Capitol Hill on UHF channel 22, using the transmitter we used to use for analog KMYQ. We need to make some changes to the transmitter to be able to use it for digital service, but we are looking at doing this, IF the FCC grants us the digital translator authorization.

Translators are by design, low power...but they should not be confused with low-power televison which is another service entirely. The power level that the FCC has initially authorized for digital translators is low...15KW to be exact. That power level would make the digital translator function to service the core area of downtown Seattle only. Accordingly, we will be petitioning the FCC to see if we increase (maybe double) that power level. As digital translators are a totally new service (having just been authorized), the FCC may or may not grant the power level increase...Engineering studies have to be completed before any such change in power levels would be authorised.

Anyway, I'll check in from time to time...Hopefully I'll be able to answer questions as they arise.

Regards,
JRZ - Asst. Chief - TTNW

KCPQ-ACE wrote:

... KCPQ broadcasts on VHF channel 13, from our tower on Gold Mountain in Bremerton, WA as it always has. We will not be moving the transmitter, nor will we turn back on the transitional digital channel that were were on previously...UHF channel 18 is gone forever. ...

Regards,
JRZ - Asst. Chief - TTNW
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JRZ,
I'm on QA Hill and currently receiving an excellent signal from 13 on a Channel Master CM 4228 8-bay, aimed at KIRO's channel 26 translator K54AO in Bremerton. No problems for me. Thanks for the Accu-weather subchannel, and are their plans to add other subchannels? Thanks in advance,
Jim

The recent KCPQ move to VHF doesn't work well for me (located north of Redmond on a hill). I still receive it but it's a close call, and it's probably becoming worse once the Seahawks season starts (since the weather is not that stable come fall...)
I'm in a pretty good spot otherwise as I can pickup a total of 34 (sub) stations locally. All used to come in in the mid to high 90s except KBTC, which is stable in the mid 80s. KCPQ used to work very well, but not anymore. KCTS and KSTW are perfectly fine, KSTW was always good, and it hasn't changed, KSTW is probably even a bit better now (I think it moved from 92 to 98, which doesn't really matter).
I'm using a 4228 plus a 7777 located in the attic. I could obviously move it outside, but I'm somewhat reluctant to do this for one channel. Maybe I'm trying to move it again, if I get bored (went to that game 2 years ago, and had everything optimized...). Oh well...

Can we get someone that knows what's going on at KOMO in here? They must have changed the way they did something because I was getting 4.1 and 4.2 fine before the rollover. Now I get nothing after rescanning twice and fiddling with my antenna cable a lot. I also don't get why DTV 4-0 shows on the channel indicator when hitting the 4 button now rather than DTV 4-1.

Short of buying an indoor antenna at Radio Shack to see if that works, I don't know what to do. I tried a Terk directional fishbone type before and had to return it because it didn't work well. I may try a UHF/rabbit ear type this time though. The guy at the lower Queen Anne RS store showed me how well that type works in their store for KOMO, and I live only about 8 blks SE of their store.

Can someone post a link to FCC info where I can find what KOMO has done if anything to change the way they broadcast? Thanks in advance for any help, this forum rocks!

And a special shout out to Dan Kurts, whom I know is doing heroic things wherever his superpowers take him.

For information on KOMO: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=komo

FCC Search: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html. Just type in the call letters for the station, or search by state / city.

Listers,

I noticed Friday when I rescanned to reset Channels 9, 11 and 13, my set detected KIRO-7's translator (26) in Bremerton/Silverdale first, then when rescanning to add Channel 12 (35) on a second antenna, it detected KIRO's main transmitter (39.1-39.2) off of the side of my Project-35 Yagi at a rock-solid signal level of 10. This is new 'behavior' and it was quite a surprise to me! Does anyone know if they bumped up their ERP and to what level?

Secondly, 7.2 RTN (The Retro Channel) is now calling itself RTV, not to be confused with the silicone rubber gorp I use to waterproof my outdoor antenna fittings!
Jim

Hello Everyone.....
Ahhh...the speculations run rampant. KSTW switched over to our permanently assigned digital channel 11, with a TPO of 12.5Kw from the top of our tower on capitol hill at high noon on Friday. We are having NO TECHNICAL ISSUES. Our EVM and S/N are actually better on 11.
I personally worked the local phone bank this weekend and took calls with folks who got some stations before and now don't. get 9 and 11 good but not 13. get 13 but not 11...on and on. Most of the time....adjusting the antenna and re-scanning results in receiving most of the stations most of the time.
Realize this...just because several stations broadcast from towers real close to each other, doesn't mean these signals reach your antenna at the same exact time. Reflections, especially for VHF stations like ours now become a bigger factor when tuning in and adjusting antennas.
I live 20 or so miles South of Seattle and have a large UHF only antenna mounted in an attic with a VHF/UHF low noise pre-amplifier connected and I am still receiving 34 digital OTA stations after the transition. Now, I had to move the UHF antenna around a little bit to get all 3 VHF stations to come in better....yes...the VHF stations are lower in gain on a UHF only antenna....but it can be done. My convertor displays both a signal strength and quality of signal meter...so working these two factors together I find you can compromise lower signal strength for better quality signals and be OK.
FWIW...I found from callers with indoor rabbit ear antennas...they need not be extended their full length as they were designed to capture all the VHF band....but as the high VHF channels are shorter in wavelength, having folks reduce the length and re-orient the "ears" seemed to help most people who called in.
Another common issue I heard with callers regarding outdoor antennas is that they are not using pre-amplifiers mounted close to the antenna and then they come down 30 or more feet of coax into splitters......I strongly advise acquiring a pre-amp.
Lastly, KSTW knew the challenges that the lower assigned power of 12.5Kw for digital channel 11 was OK on paper, but in reality, we need a bigger blow torch to assure indoor reception in the core viewing areas and that 's why we've had an application into the FCC for 100Kw since last year. We knew the Canadians would probably take their time on approval...and they are...but we are converting our analog ch.11 transmitter into a 100Kw capable DTV transmitter next month.
IMHO the VHF digital reception issue is going to be pushed back hard to the FCC on a nationwide basis and there will be changes made to allow stations like us to serve our viewers better with more power and better coverage...and it will be soon.

Ron D.
CE, KSTW

rdiotte wrote:

... "KSTW switched over to our permanently assigned digital channel 11, with a TPO of 12.5Kw from the top of our tower on capitol hill at high noon on Friday. We are having NO TECHNICAL ISSUES. both a signal strength and quality of signal meter...so working these two factors together I find you can compromise lower signal strength for better quality signals and be OK. ...

Lastly, KSTW knew the challenges that the lower assigned power of 12.5Kw for digital channel 11 was OK on paper, but in reality, we need a bigger blow torch to assure indoor reception in the core viewing areas and that 's why we've had an application into the FCC for 100Kw since last year. We knew the Canadians would probably take their time on approval...and they are...but we are converting our analog ch.11 transmitter into a 100Kw capable DTV transmitter next month.
IMHO the VHF digital reception issue is going to be pushed back hard to the FCC on a nationwide basis and there will be changes made to allow stations like us to serve our viewers better with more power and better coverage...and it will be soon."

Ron D.
CE, KSTW
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Ron,
Thank you for the update. I am on the SW corner of QA Hill (blocked by 60 to 40 feet of hillside, depending on my antenna height) and receiving your analog signal was always a nightmare for me, so I'm looking forward to capturing your digital signal. Currently, I don't have a high-band VHF antenna in the air so I cannot receive 9 nor 11. According to the TVFOOL website I am 3 miles away from your transmitter. I am aware of the propogational advantages of VHF over UHF and receiving 'digital 9' before the transition was not a problem here when it was on the air. I will be building a 'cut-to-Channel 10' Yagi this week to try to snag both stations.

I hope KSTW is allowed to jump to 100 kw, but I think it is important KCTS also gets permission to raise their ERP. I can forsee problems for locals trying to receive a 21.7 kw station and a 100 kw blowtorch on the same compass bearing on the same antenna.

Simply, if I build a high-gain 10 bar Yagi to receive both of you and only one of you gets to bump up your ERP, the higher signal level from one station could require attenuation and odds are (if attenuated) I will lose the other station, unless I remove it. Then, I'll lose the stronger station do to overload! Aaack!

Jim

Back in the local OTA club, as I've finally reconnected my HD receiver to my projector (football season is coming, y'know), and get KOMO, KING, and KIRO quite easily, but getting nothing from KCPQ or KSTW whatsoever.

KCPQ putting a translator on Capitol Hill may increase the number of households being able to receive the signal, but it still won't reach those of us towards the east, especially here in SE King county. If stations are going to go through the expense & trouble of putting up translators, it seems to me it would make more sense to put them where more people will be served, like on one of the higher hills/mountains to the east. West Tiger already has towers, so some infrastructure should be there.

JRZ, et al:

It seems the REC website is a wee bit optomistic regarding the Capitol Hill 're-transmitter' for Channel 13. Reported at 15 kw ERP, it covers from Capitol Hill, Seattle all the way to Olympia! That is amazing efficency! LOL! I gotta get me one of those stuperior transmittin' de-vices!
Jim

http://recdev.akane.recnet.com/cdbs/...e=LICEN&jaws=0

just tried repointing the antenna and no luck. managed to get the tv to reallize there's actually a signal on that frequency but no bars or video. No channel 13 here it seems.

Ron Diotte et al,

Is there any way for consumers to pressure the FCC into faster action on power increases etc. that would make DTV more usable for more people? Or does the FCC not really care about the current state of DTV as it impacts massive numbers of viewers who can't get a picture any more? Many people are doing all the right things and still can't get reliable reception.

Here are the instructions for modifying your Channel Master 4221HD UHf antenna to improve its performance on channels 9, 11, and 13. It is definitely a compromise but it works for me.

If you decide to modify your 4221, I would love to hear from you.

Richard

 

Mods to the Channel Master 4221HD Antenna.pdf 227.759765625k . file

I heard that the FCC is testing a power boost in Chicago for upper-VHF tomorrow. Now if that isn't fast for the FCC, nothing is.

I'm hopeful that if that test is successful, the FCC will let upper-VHF stations boost power more ASAP, though I really don't know anything for sure.

- Trip

I got a few dozen calls over the last few days. All were on the VHF channels being gone. Not too surprising. What was, though, was my reception in Federal Way. When ch's 9 & 11 did their tests with limited power around the holidays, I got pretty good results and levels. I normally got both of them about -5db and -8db, respectively. Waveshape on scope wasn't flat, but very respectable and my H20 sat box, which isn't that swift, did fine. The tests, which I recall were at lower power levels, only dropped by a few db's, waveshape almost identical. I thought we would be in good shape. My antenna is a 4221, no amp, some trees. Now both ch's are way down, ch 9 at -19db, barely locks, but steady. Ch11 below -22db, with a few peaks above. (My meter only reads to -22db) It will not lock, just occasional streaks of a tiled picture. I thought we would be doing much better than that.
Ch13 completely gone. The analog VHF ch13 did come in pretty good. As I recall, they transmitted in a circular pattern, and required an antenna that looked like X elements on a 8ft boom. They quit making the antenna back in the late 80's. Regular horizontal cut for 13 yagi's didn't help, still had ghosting. I don't remember what their analog levels were on the 4221, but obviously can't compare it to digital now. Would like to know if they are still using the same style antenna or something new. Have a bunch of rework stacking up from old customers. I'll try and call ch13 tomorrow.
In any case, if Ron is checking in here, curious as to why the reception got worse on ch11.

JRZ
Thanks for the update. Answers a lot of questions. Didn't see your post until now, way too many irons in the fire.
Are you still transmitting ch13 in a circular, or elliptical pattern, as before?
When you do field testing, what antenna do you use?
Again, thanks for the information. Helps me put smiles on customers !
Dan

Richard
EXCELLENT mod !!
I'll try it out on my older 4221. It has the old "chicken wire/bedspring" type backplane, which is wider than the newer one. We'll see what gives.
I'll also try a new one.
Dan