Seattle, WA - OTA - Page 310

trode
You're welcome. Thanks for the challenge. I had no idea your Mac tuner devices were streaming. Learned another one!
By the way, the ping is very low on the OSI stack. My old laptop I use for programming on site fails a ping, but works fine otherwise. Not worth repairing.
Your basic instinct and troubleshooting methods were right on. If you have another failure, try the Linksys/Cisco hardware. I don't like callbacks, and have been bitten with a variety of hardware and software issues with D-link, Netgear, ASUS and others. There probably are others out there with great reliabilty, but my luck has held well using Linksys/Cisco, and the 24/7 free support is decent, and their tier2 support is great.

After all this, you have the cleanest antenna install around !
Dan

rbico
Your antenna is waaaaaaaay to small.
Aiming with it is not going to be that critical, won't make much difference.
Whomever you spoke with at Channelmaster hasn't a clue about your terrain problems, so he thinks you're line of sight, which you aren't.
TVFool doesn't account for terrain. Good for finding the directions, though.
The 4228 is not too much for your location.
Going higher usually helps, sure won't cost much to try.
Remove the splitter temporarily. If it solves your problems, you could try a preamplifier, but not recommended. Spend the money on more antenna, no preamp. You'll get a better signal to noise ratio, which digital tuners like.
Always terminate a cable run if you're not using it. RatShack has 75ohm terminators. The open coax run on a splitter can act like a trap and cause all kinds of wierd problems. In strong signal areas it can actually work like an antenna and add more problems as well.
Last, digital will always look perfect when you get a channel to lock on. Not like the old analog days of ghosting, snow, etc when a signal gets weak. When you get right on the minimum amount of digital signal, or the noise level gets to high, comparatively, breakups and pixelation can occur.

Let us know what happens with the mast.
Dan

Thanks for the replies Jim and Dan.
I am on the west end of Lynnwood, but definitely in Lynnwood, about 6 blocks west of 99. i don't know about 30 channels but we my TV said over 30, although some don't come in. I would say we have about 20 channels - counting the foreign stuff. What antenna does your friend have?

I hooked up the second TV via the splitter and immediately had no pixelation on KIRO, KOMO and KING5. Fox was still half frozen, looked like it was made out of legos. I then removed the splitter and added a coupler connecting my antenna directly to ONE TV, and Fox came in clear as a bell, as did the others. This was last night. This morning, with the same connection, Fox is back to legloland but the other stations are great.
TVFool says the Fox tower is 30.8 miles from me, so you are probably right Dan. I took the CM tech guy's information with a grain of salt, but what he said did made sense to me. But I know very little.

I guess I will put the 4228 on the Christmas list, that is if my wife can't live without Fox. I don't care, personally - I just watch Hulu and movies and the news for the weather (which is inaccurate anyway).

rbico
Progress. Good job!
Fox owns both ch13 and ch22. Fox comes in on ch22-2 in standard definition.
Frys in Renton has the 4228.
Merry Christmas, either way !
Dan

Hi all,

I've been thinking about cutting the cable and have been reading a lot from this thread. I'm in Maple Valley about 25-30 miles from most of the local channels. I picked up a CM-4221HD from Fry's to see what I might expect.
TV Fool report
www dot tvfool dot com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8d1705e8c82a33
says I should get the major stations (KOMO, KING, KIRO), Fox, ION, etc. and generally I get a good picture but with random drop outs. I cannot get KCTS at all. I do have a large stand of tall trees in the direction of the transmitters.

I also have a CM-7777 since our house is wired with 4 outlets.

A couple of questions:

I assume the dropouts are due to low signal strength so a larger antenna, like a 8 bay e.g., a CM-4228. Is the 4221 too small for my location? Should I try for more height before I swap antennas?

Is Channel 9 (KCTS) too low of a channel for the 4221? Would it make more sense to add a dedicated VHF antenna or just use a larger antenna for both? For example, the 4228 claims to get channels 7-13 out to 45 miles.

Fry's website lists the 4228 at $95, and a Winegard 8 bay (HD-8800) for $40. Is there that much difference in performance and quality to justify the price difference?

Would adding terminators to the unused cable outlets make a significant difference?

Thanks for any input.

Dave

Must be tropo-like conditions today, freezing cold and all... DXing...

Using home-built M4, able to get RF 22, 20 and 43 from up north! Yeah!

Yeah, KCTS is on VHF, and your CM 4221 wasn't designed for VHF that low (channel 9).. I guess it can reach down to channel 13 FOX since you seem to be able to get it, unless you're picking it from RF 25.

Some websites claim HD-8800 has better gain than CM 4228HD, while others say the reverse.

If you prefer a signal antenna solution to get KCTS 9, then a CM 4228HD should do the trick for you, or you can add a 2nd VHF antenna and combine it with your CM 4221 (though this can get tricky to combine two antennas).

Thanks for the tips, Dan. Frys is where I got my 4220.

Fox 13 (HD) seems to come in great at night, just not during the day. Seems odd, but whatever. I will try channel 22 until I get the 4228.

Do you know if the 4228 will work with the mast from the 4220mhd?

Dave,

Maple Valley is very difficult. We used to live just north of Shadow Lake Elementary & could only get OTA from the West Tiger Mountain transmitters. TVFool's signal locator is worthless & AntennaWeb isn't much better. Neither considers the terrain. Use the Google Maps links on TVFool for much more accurate results.

We moved to Kent last year & now get all the OTA signals.

Dave
What's your nearest cross streets?
Dan

rbico
The 4228 is about 30" high, so it won't work with the foot and mast on yours.
Depending on where you mount it, a fairly strong bracket needs to be used. There's a lot wind load with the 4228. If possible, an eave mount would work without having to go into the roof,
http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/image/21022193.jpg
or a chimney mount
http://www.rfwiz.com/images/AustinAn...House200pm.jpg
Make sure you have about 15" to 20" above the roof peak or chimney top. Just enough so they won't affect the antenna reception. You also don't want to allow the antenna to have too much leverage over the mount, like a 10' mast anchored at the bottom and 3' up, with 7' left above hanging in the wind. Sure disaster.
Dan

Dan,

Nearest cross streets: 234th Ave. S.E. and S.E. 253rd Pl.

I'm toward the northern end of 234th.

Dave

Dave
Good news, your at 570ft elevation.
Bad news, 3 miles of trees before you clear the hill at SE Lake Youngs Road and 190th. TVFool doesn't see trees.

Dropouts aren't always from low signal level. Your preamp has lots of power and can make up for that if you get enough coming in above minimums for it to work.
The main problem is the trees. They tend to really chop up the signal. Makes it very hard for the tuner to lock on. A 4228 would be better than a 4221, specially for the VHF. It's not designed for VHF, but works somewhat.
A yagi style UHF, though, usually works better in these situations. Think of it as helping you to pick your way through the trees, ignoring some of the other ugly signals.
Frys has the CM2020 for about $70. It also has the hi-band VHF for ch's 9-11-13. Combined with your 7777 preamp, that's a pretty good start. You could go for more antenna, but since you're doing pretty well with the 4221, it should work.
The biggest thing is finding the sweet spot. Patience will win out. Make a chart with the main channels and the "strength" numbers you see for each. Sight down the antenna and pick a spot in the distance. Move the antenna a bit one way, identify another spot and note it and numbers, and then do it again. By a bit, like having the nose of the antenna move about four inches.

It takes about 10 to 30 seconds for a tuner to lock on, so you can't whip it around like an old analog antenna and get instant results. After a while you'll see some channels are more sensitive than others. Concentrate on those to shorten the process. Also moving it higher or lower than 8" can make a difference, too. Even moving the mast a bit to a different location just 8" can make it.
The numbers you're seeing aren't really strength, but more like signal quality. You could be very weak, or strong in actual level, and still see the same numbers. If the signal is not good, as viewed on a scope, it won't lock. That's what makes this a real challenge with out test equipment.

Check out the basic direction on a map, or use Google Earth to draw a line from your house to QA Hill and that should get you close.
Also, ch13 comes from much more to the west, so worry about that last. If it doesn't come in, you can use a separate antenna if needed.

Last, I hope you installed the 4way split after the preamp power supply, not between it and the preamp. Definitely use terminators on unused splitter ports, or at the end of the unused cable run.

Keep us informed on your progress!
Dan

Dan,

Thanks for the detailed reply. I had assumed that I needed a more signal capturing capacity, but I understand your point about trees affecting signal quality. I have my 4221 oriented toward the Queen Anne transmitters using a compass heading and it pointed right at a large stand of trees. I do notice more dropouts when its windy, so I think your analysis is right on.

With a yagi, would it be better to aim for gaps in the trees even if the direction isn't exactly toward the transmitters? Or is it just a matter of experimentation?

The splitters in my house are all hidden in the walls so I have the amp connected between the antenna and a cable outlet. The intent is to drive the signal to all the outlets. Is there a better method?

I think a trip to Fry's is in my future for a CM-2020 and some cable terminators. Hopefully the weather will allow some installation work.

Thanks again.

Dave

Dave
Aiming an antenna is not that exact. In your case, misaiming can actually work to your advantage. With a yagi, it may be as much as 20 degrees either side of perfect. You will see a noticeable difference, though, with very small movements. The 4221 is very wide, and can be turned far more without much change, not very directional. Yes, it's going to take some playing around with direction and location to find that one good spot. If you keep a chart, it will help you narrow down the better gaps in the trees.

All your cable connections are in a daisy chain? Do you know which one is the first one?
The normal way of splitting is to have each run go to one location, and connect to one splitter. That way each run has the same amount, give or take because of cable lengths. A 4way split connected that way would lower the signal level 7db to each TV. When you split it once, and then feed the next splitter, and then the next, and then the last one, the loss to each TV, from beginning to end would be 3.5db, 7db, 10.5db and the last one would be down 14db. There are other considerations, but the main result is far more loss. Your preamp can make up for a lot of that, but if your signal is weak coming in, you can have a lot of signal level, but also a lot more noise. Digital hates noise, makes it hard to figure what's real and what isn't.
If possible, try to figure out where the cable company hooked up their signal. That's where you want the output of the amp to go. Cable companies don't usually configure cabling runs like yours. They get too many problems and callbacks. If you are using a secondary set of runs that someone else did, bail and use the cable company runs.
What I meant with the preamp connection is the preamp is on the roof at the antenna, and the power supply for it is in the house. After the power supply is where you start your run to the rest of the house. If you install a splitter between the preamp and the power supply, it will short out the power and not work. Occasionally, when there's a lot of signal to begin with, some signal will still get through, but it's not reliable. Eventually you'll fry the power supply.
It sounds like you probably have it connected correctly, though, as you are getting a fair amount of channels. Just making sure we're all set up right.

Let us know what happens.
Dan

I'm down by the water in Bremerton and hardly ever get KING. Today, Sunday, the 20th, it's booming. My signal quality meter is in the 70's. I've never seen it that high. Usually it's under 30 and unwatchable. I checked here to see if KING had made any changes but don't see any mention. I'm hoping it's not just the weather.

Taperwood,

I'm on QA Hill and I receive KING via a reflection off of a downtown skyscraper and its signal 'strength' has not changed for me. On occasion I can receive it when I aim my CM-4221 at their tower, but not this morning.

Every once in a while I point my 4221 toward Victoria and rescan to see if by chance any Canadian stations are making the trip and for the first time on this antenna at its current height, my tuner 'discovered' The Shopping Channels. My guess is both of our reception changes are being caused/allowed by the current weather/atmospherics.

Jim

Jim,

Thanks. I guess I got my hopes up for nothing. Another thing I just thought of is that the city is doing work on the sewer line on my street and a couple of days ago they parked two big cranes across the street and up a house or two in the general direction of my Seattle signal. I don't watch much TV so today was the first chance I had to notice any changes. I'm wondering if all that steel sitting there has something to do with it. Whatever the case, I'll enjoy it while I can.

I doubt KCTS is flagging Masterpiece but I thought I just ask really quick.
I haven't been able to record a whole show in sometime. I usually just get a few minutes. Once I got an hour of a 2 hour program.
I've only tried other stations once, and it did work.
I suspect it's a MCE problem. Nothing seems the same after a failed SageTV install.

I haven't had any such issues with an EyeTV hybrid tuner and EyeTV 3.5.3 software.

I regularly record Masterpiece but recently I had to change my record time from 1.5 hours to 2 hours to fit the longer shows. No problemo.

Jim, I thought you said you already get KVOS from Bellingham (Orcas Island) already... if so, it shouldnt be a suprise you get the "Shopping" channels (RF 19), since they're on the same Mt on Orcas Island..?

be236,

KVOS has an ERP of 580 kW which makes the trip but KBCB has only 165 kW ERP and the only time I received them (not dependibly) was this past summer when testing a Terrestrial Digital DB-2 at about 36 feet above ground level. My tuner 'sensed' the KBTC translator in Grays Harbor/LeBam at the same crazy height.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Yeah, I knew KBCB (RF 19) had a lower ERP than KVOS, but I just assumed you'd still be able to pick it up still. It must have a lower NM value than KVOS.

I'm about 15 miles closer to KBCB (listed about 62 miles away) and I can get KBCB just fine using an old RS VU-160 or CM 4221 or home built M4 antenna. Its NM is about 9 dB or so for me. (heh).

Also, I can get RF 24 from Orcas as well with its super low ERP. Using M4 or CM 4221, I have it about 15 feet AGL just barely (about 60% signal on my Sony to get picture lock).

I'll assume you can't get RF 24 at all?

Also, we talked a few months back about me trying to get those BC channels. Well, update with a pre-amp (KT200) and M4 (similar to CM4221), I can occasionally now get RF 22 (CHAN), and RF20 (OMNI) with NMs at -8db and 13dB.. amazing , huh? Yes, might be due to tropo conditions, but it's just good to know I can get this. I think I just need a bigger antenna, (maybe CM 4228 or HD-8800) or gang two up to 2.5dB gain.

CHAN is amazing in HD! :-)

be236,

The only way I have been able to receive KBCB is with a DB-2 shoved WAY up in the sky, but it wasn't dependable reception. I checked the REC Networks website and their antenna height above sea level is 42 meters lower than KVOS, so for me its a combination of their lower height and lower ERP.

I'm convinced the DB-2 is undersized and designed for channels at the top of the current UHF band, but if I built a cut-to-channel multi-bar Yagi or a stacked pair, I bet I could capture them. Lucky for me, I don't need to receive that channel!

Jim

Yea, I think those DB-2s are like the CM 4221s... they're designed for high UHF, so I made an M4 design (similar to CM 4221) for low UHF... that allowed me to pick up RF 20 and 22 sometimes. heh.

My next project is to build basic SBGH since it might have slightly higher gain ...

If that doesnt work, I'm thinking of getting two HD-8800s and ganging them up.

Oh, Friday 11/25, I went to Fry's and they just had one CM 4220 left.. I dont think they sell CM 4228s (or out of stock and I didnt see).. and I saw they have Channel Master 7000 there.. about $349.. ouch.

be236,

The DB-2 has 6.5" whiskers compared to EV's Kosmic SuperQuad with 10" whiskers. If I get a chance this winter I want to build a 2-bay version of the KSQ. By the way, my friend in Lynnwood lives a couple blocks west of Harvey's Tavern and currently he has a pair of old-style CM-4228's vertically stacked. What a kite!

When you were at Fry's was the OTA TV section poorly stocked? The last two times I was there it was wiped out. You wrote they have a CM-7000 (converter box) for $349 - I hope you meant a CM-7000 PAL DVR!

Jim

That's probably the reason it was redesigned and replaced.

Yeah, the shorter whiskers are better for high UHF channels. For me the highest UHF channel from BC is RF 43 (CBUT).. while most of their channels are low UHF (17 to 26,32) that I want.

Do you know if ganged CM 4228s are better than ganged HD-8800s (since those HD-8800s are half the price of CM 4228s). I get conflicting reports of one being better than the others.

Yes, I was in the OTA section yesterday and their selection, they had lots of Yagi types left... and one of those bay types... But I was hoping to see and look at a 4228s, but couldnt find any.

I wish they had more different bays, like HD-8800 or DB4s, etc... or diffferent Yagis, like CM 3023 or MXU59 or 91XG. (heh).

And yes, I mean CM-7000 PAL DVR. That is so expensive for a OTA DVR!? Geez.. It shouldnt be more than a regular DTV box, say around $100-$150 at most?

ProjectSHO89,

I have a copy of the early version DB-2 that uses a standard balun and a copy of the second generation DB-2 that has an integral balun. What are the characteristics of the replacement 'newest' DB-2?

Thanks in advance,

Jim