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Acoustical Treatments Master Thread - Page 37

post #1081 of 10204
You could try using pvc pipe cut to the appropriate length. There is even some that is already grey or black that is used for irragation system risers, it is probably around 1.25" od. Depending on how your panels are made they may just rest in the corners, or drill a hole across the diameter and screw them in, or you could even use hot melt glue to glue them to a wood frame.

Of course, you could also just use some pieces of wood in the same way.

Just a few thougths for some simple solutions, I'm sure there are many other ways also.

Kevin
post #1082 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

What could I mount behind the panels to make them float over the chair rail?

You could stand them off - mount them on stand-offs - that clear the rail . . . wood blocks, metal blocks or even genuine stand-offs - metal sleeves that slip over screws. Or, if you are building the panels, scribe and cut the rail profile out of the frame members where they hit the rail. The fiberglass inside would esaily mold itself to the rail. The panel would be flat against the wall and the rail will continue under - through actually - the panel and out the other side. The scribing/cutting would, IMO, produce the most elegant result.
post #1083 of 10204
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I don't plan to put a frame around my panels, so I will look into either the pvc (in black), stand offs or wood.

Any other ideas?
post #1084 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I don't plan to put a frame around my panels, so I will look into either the pvc (in black), stand offs or wood.

Any other ideas?

How will you cover the fiberglass bats and then mount them without a frame? They do not have enough rigidity, in my experience, without a frame.
post #1085 of 10204
From reading through this thread, and seeing pictures of others that have mounted theirs, I was just planning to wrap them in fabric and use screws with washers and mount them. That is what I have seen and read others have done.
post #1086 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

From reading through this thread, and seeing pictures of others that have mounted theirs, I was just planning to wrap them in fabric and use screws with washers and mount them. That is what I have seen and read others have done.

10-4. I've heard of that as well. It seems to yield less of a "finished" look, but that's a matter of preference. Here's some specialized hardware to do just that -

Here

and here.
post #1087 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I don't plan to put a frame around my panels, so I will look into either the pvc (in black), stand offs or wood.

Any other ideas?

I'd just put some more rigid fiberglass behind them to fill in the gap above the chair rail.
post #1088 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

10-4. I've heard of that as well. It seems to yield less of a "finished" look, but that's a matter of preference. Here's some specialized hardware to do just that -

Or, for compressed panels, here: http://www.rotofast.com/home.htm

Really neat.

Kal
post #1089 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Or, for compressed panels, here: http://www.rotofast.com/home.htm

Really neat.

Kal

Kal, Have you used these? They really look simple and effective. Is there a on-line retail source you used? I was considering a french cleat installation but this looks much better.
post #1090 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by stromand View Post

Kal, Have you used these? They really look simple and effective. Is there a on-line retail source you used? I was considering a french cleat installation but this looks much better.

Used them this weekend for the first time and I am sold. Got them as samples but you should ask at the website.

Kal
post #1091 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by stromand View Post

Kal, Have you used these? They really look simple and effective. Is there a on-line retail source you used? I was considering a french cleat installation but this looks much better.

I looked at their site and they are .89 each. So at 4/panel cost is $3.50 each panel for hangers. I plan on about 15 panels so that is $52.50 for hangers. Sounds a little pricy, but I have not compared alternatives. I was considering these speaker grill guides from Parts Express. They are only 1.45 for a kit of 12 and they would work well if you have any sort of wood frame around your panel like a lot of people do. Just not sure how well they would work with hanging on drywall though...
post #1092 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by jandawil View Post

I looked at their site and they are .89 each. So at 4/panel cost is $3.50 each panel for hangers. I plan on about 15 panels so that is $52.50 for hangers. Sounds a little pricy, but I have not compared alternatives. I was considering these speaker grill guides from Parts Express. They are only 1.45 for a kit of 12 and they would work well if you have any sort of wood frame around your panel like a lot of people do. Just not sure how well they would work with hanging on drywall though...

From the looks of those grill guides, they pre-suppose being mounted to a frame. Absent a frame, somehing will need to be driven through an "un-structured" fibelglass panel to have any chance of holding it.
post #1093 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

From the looks of those grill guides, they pre-suppose being mounted to a frame. Absent a frame, somehing will need to be driven through an "un-structured" fibelglass panel to have any chance of holding it.

Agreed. Also, I am not sure that you wouldn't need more than four per panel if you wanted to sit beneath them.

In addition, the Rotofasts are really easy to set up, align and mount in minutes.

Kal
post #1094 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Used them this weekend for the first time and I am sold. Got them as samples but you should ask at the website.

Kal

I just send a request for information to Rotafast. I like these better than the grill guides since they mount directly to the material versus having to fabricate wood frames.
post #1095 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightd View Post

I'd just put some more rigid fiberglass behind them to fill in the gap above the chair rail.

From everything that I have read, you want to have either 1" or 2" rigid fiberglass, if I used more fiberglass behind them, that would make them too thick for their purpose.

I se all the different suggestions for how to hang the panels above, but is there anything wrong with just using screws and washers or is it more for the appearance?
post #1096 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin12586 View Post

From everything that I have read, you want to have either 1" or 2" rigid fiberglass, if I used more fiberglass behind them, that would make them too thick for their purpose.

I se all the different suggestions for how to hang the panels above, but is there anything wrong with just using screws and washers or is it more for the appearance?

Oh no, there is no such thing as "too thick" for their purpose, at least not from a purely performance standpoint. (An SO may have other "issues" though.) In fact, if you use 2" like I did you will probably find yourself - like I did - going back and adding bass traps. Two inch of fiberglass - I used OC SelectSound black - will NOT reach effectively to mid- and upper-bass frequencies. And doesn't come close to deep bass. If I had had the room - and the understanding I have now - I would have used four inches of 'glass. I would still need to go back and add some bass traps, but my room wouldn't be such a mess 100Hz - 300Hz.

And 1" is useless for first-reflection-point control.
post #1097 of 10204
I do like the idea of not building frames. I just want these things done!! Where is everyone getting their rigid fiberglass???
post #1098 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by jandawil View Post

I do like the idea of not building frames. I just want these things done!! Where is everyone getting their rigid fiberglass???

I looked for and fouind a local "insulation distributor" for Owens Corning. I am about to contact them again for 4" 703 for bass traps. There's alot of things I'd rather not do, but no frames was not even considered. I did not build a Rialto, but aesthetics mean something. Frames allowed me to tightly stretch GOM and have a very finished look. Mounting on the wall and CEILING was a breeze with frames.

YMMV.

Check the link in my sig for what I did.
post #1099 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Oh no, there is no such thing as "too thick" for their purpose, at least not from a purely performance standpoint. (An SO may have other "issues" though.) In fact, if you use 2" like I did you will probably find yourself - like I did - going back and adding bass traps. Two inch of fiberglass - I used OC SelectSound black - will NOT reach effectively to mid- and upper-bass frequencies. And doesn't come close to deep bass. If I had had the room - and the understanding I have now - I would have used four inches of 'glass. I would still need to go back and add some bass traps, but my room wouldn't be such a mess 100Hz - 300Hz.

And 1" is useless, even for first-reflection-point control.

I do not understand this at all. I have seen, more than once, the bonafide experts like Dennis Erskine state that 1" on the walls at ear level and below is sufficient for most home theaters. More than this will cause the room to be too dead. From what I understand, you are not trying to trap much base on the walls that is what room boundaries like in the corners are for.

Pepar, sounds like you need one of these acoustic engineers to bring their equipment in, test your room, and make specific recommendations.
post #1100 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by stromand View Post

I do not understand this at all. I have seen, more than once, the bonafide experts like Dennis Erskine state that 1" on the walls at ear level and below is sufficient for most home theaters. More than this will cause the room to be too dead. From what I understand, you are not trying to trap much base on the walls that is what room boundaries like in the corners are for.

Pepar, sounds like you need one of these acoustic engineers to bring their equipment in, test your room, and make specific recommendations.

I've not seen anything re 1" being sufficient for first reflection points. As for a room being made too dead, that's a function of the percent of room surface area covered with absorptive material. If only the "first reflection" points are being covered, I can't see how that'd be enough to make it too dead - 1", 2" or 4". Why would you cover all of the walls at and below ear level? That most likely would deaden the room too much (even if you only used carpet).

Are you talking about the entire room at and below ear level, or only first reflection points?
post #1101 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by stromand View Post

I do not understand this at all. I have seen, more than once, the bonafide experts like Dennis Erskine state that 1" on the walls at ear level and below is sufficient for most home theaters.

A 1" thickness of fiberglass is sufficient to control early reflections. These cause imaging problems at medium to high frequencies, and the lower frequency absorption of thicker fiberglass is unnecessary.

- Terry
post #1102 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Montlick View Post

A 1" thickness of fiberglass is sufficient to control early reflections. These cause imaging problems at medium to high frequencies, and the lower frequency absorption of thicker fiberglass is unnecessary.

- Terry

Bingo! Thanks, I've been enlightened. I thought reaching lower was a benefit with the corollary being 1" was insufficient.
post #1103 of 10204
Nope. 1" is plenty - if all you need from those panels is reflection control. If you need additional overall control in lower frequencies, then 2" or more is certainly not going to hurt anything.
post #1104 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpape View Post

Nope. 1" is plenty - if all you need from those panels is reflection control. If you need additional overall control in lower frequencies, then 2" or more is certainly not going to hurt anything.

I guess that was my point/question; if you've got the physical space, why not apply 2" as you will most likely need to control lower frequencies anyway?
post #1105 of 10204
I am with you on that pepar... Most rooms need as much low end absorption as it can get.. Not saying bryan or Terry is wrong..
Glenn
post #1106 of 10204
I was just agreeing with Terry that 1" is sufficient IF all you need is reflection control. In a small room where you don't have a lot of space, sometimes the reflection panels need to do double duty.

If you're already addressed the bottom end in other ways and don't need it or there are corners free where it's more effective, then 1" would be sufficient.
post #1107 of 10204
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpape View Post

I was just agreeing with Terry that 1" is sufficient IF all you need is reflection control. In a small room where you don't have a lot of space, sometimes the reflection panels need to do double duty.

If you're already addressed the bottom end in other ways and don't need it or there are corners free where it's more effective, then 1" would be sufficient.

If I've learned anything in building my own home theater, and that's always debatable, it's that a holistic approach must be employed for acoustical treatments. Knowing a little - or even a lot - about one aspect doesn't cut it. Sooo, for every true statement - 1" is sufficient for first reflection control - there are two (or more) "ifs" that may not be obvious unless you have a broad understanding of the whole - a big part of the fact that people make a living at acoustics.
post #1108 of 10204
Bryan, I think you and I are saying the same thing here.. Most rooms can not fit enough bass trapping in it anyway, so the 2" panels can help with the rest..
Glenn
post #1109 of 10204
Now I am unsure again if I am supposed to use 1" or 2" panels for my first reflection points. My basement is over 6000 cubic feet, with about 1/3 of that for the actual theater. The theater itself is open to the entire basement and my plan is to put either 1" or 2" panels at my FRP and 4" thick base trapping at all corners and soffits, a total of 13 corners.

Based on this, should I stick with the 1" or go with 2" for my FRP?
post #1110 of 10204
For a room that large, just off the top of my head, I'd probably use 2".
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