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Acoustical Treatments Master Thread - Page 305

post #9121 of 10203
The guys using it for their DIY AT screens.
post #9122 of 10203
They are projecting onto the spandex??? Kids these days. smile.gif

Anyway, I'd want to see some tests or have an acoustician weigh in.

Jeff
post #9123 of 10203
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Has anyone thought about using spandex instead of GOM fabric for panels? The thought hit me when I was reading about the DIY spandex screens. If its as acoustically transparent as they say it is, it might be a cheaper alternative to GOM.

IMHO there are many more interesting uses for Spandex ! smile.gif

Cheers,
post #9124 of 10203
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?




post #9125 of 10203
Assuming its acoustically transparent enough to use for an AT screen, it would work for absorption panel coverings. I wonder though if you'd be able to see the Fiberglas/framing through it, since it is very sheer.
post #9126 of 10203
That's what I initially thought until I read a bit more. They are saying it seems to be a pretty tight weave and they can't see any moire effect at all. I may get a small sample and try it to see. Or you could paint the face of the OC703 lightly with black spray paint to help with the see through. With the elasticity and four way stretch I think it would be much easier to work with than GOM. Hmmmmm...... It's really got me thinking.
post #9127 of 10203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Assuming its acoustically transparent enough to use for an AT screen, it would work for absorption panel coverings. I wonder though if you'd be able to see the Fiberglas/framing through it, since it is very sheer.

Most guys are doubling the spandex up with either a white/white or white/gray for their screens.

Seeing as there is no back lighting I doubt you'd have a problem with anything showing through behind it.
post #9128 of 10203
Plaster ceiling
With respect to the plaster ceiling construction, is it OK to fill in OC703 batts in the ceiling (sandwiched between the solid concrete ceiling and the suspended plaster board held by the aluminum furring channel)? When installed this way, will it help in improving bass decay time?
post #9129 of 10203
As far as I know only treatments inside the room will have an effect on the decay time, and to have an effect on the lower octaves it needs to be rather thick. See the bass traps threads for more info.
post #9130 of 10203
Stick with regular fluffy insulation inside wall/ceiling cavities, and save the more expensive rigid insulation for broadband traps inside the room.
post #9131 of 10203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Stick with regular fluffy insulation inside wall/ceiling cavities, and save the more expensive rigid insulation for broadband traps inside the room.

+1
post #9132 of 10203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

Stick with regular fluffy insulation inside wall/ceiling cavities, and save the more expensive rigid insulation for broadband traps inside the room.
But the cheap fluffy stuff are not dense enough & won't do much on lower frequency.

The question remains...will decay time be improved with batts in ceiling cavities? One guy says no. Any other comments?
post #9133 of 10203
In wall insulation is to stop the wall acting like a drum, it doesn't have any/much direct acoustic benefit.
post #9134 of 10203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

In wall insulation is to stop the wall acting like a drum, it doesn't have any/much direct acoustic benefit.

So should interior theater walls have regular insulation? Exterior walls of course need it but I hadn't planned on doing interior walls since I'm not doing DD/GG/Clips.
post #9135 of 10203
Yes, all the walls benefit from insulation - you don't want any resonating air cavities adjacent to your playback space (unless of course, you've tuned them for a specific purpose).
post #9136 of 10203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

But the cheap fluffy stuff are not dense enough & won't do much on lower frequency.
The question remains...will decay time be improved with batts in ceiling cavities? One guy says no. Any other comments?

Cheap fluffy stuff is effective at low frequencies if thick enough, and 2" of OC70X won't effect much low frequencies either. For wall construction, use the fluffy stuff.

Any insulation in the walls will reduce decay times only if the decay times were imparted by resonation inside the wall construction. If there wasn't any prior, then it will not add much of a benefit other than a higher STC rating, and well, the expected benefits of heating & cooling.
post #9137 of 10203
Hello guys, I was hoping I would still get some feedback on this. I fixed the images so you won't have to click and download each one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e2g_ View Post

So I skimmed through the first few pages some more, and perhaps I need to read a lot more but seeing that my questions may be specific to only me, I only got a few answers. I would appreciate if anyone can help me out with my questions, and provide any advice.
First, the setup up:


I have attached the following picture of downstairs where I have everything set up. The subwoofer is actually on the opposite side in between the tv and the left speaker. The couch is against the wall, and behind that wall is the stairs leading upstairs. We no longer have the dining table. Just two bikes. Also, the double window at the bottom of the sketch has a curtain.
What I understand is that
  • I need broadband bass traps at least 8" or more behind the head. I am not sure if I can get a panel thicker than 4" because of my girlfriend
  • I need to bass trap as much as possible. Unfortunately, I will be limited to one corner (bottom right of sketch) due to the WAF, and this being a common room.
  • .....
Some of my questions apart from what should I do to help some of the acoustics in the room without breaking the bank (I am planning on building something since buying online seems out of my budget right now)
1. We have two cats. I am afraid that if they were to scratch the panel (especially the corner bass trap)..and get at the insulation, that may not be good. Are there any alternatives...or I shouldn't be worrying about this?
2. Being that the listening space is at one end of this rectangular shaped room downstairs, do you think 1st reflection points coming from the left side of the room (the side where the left speaker is located) is going to be a problem. I figured since those surfaces are further away, it would not be an issue. If it is, it may be an issue treating due to the lack of complete wall space.
3. For the broadband bass traps directly behind the head...and up to the ceiling, are these suppose to be 8" thick, and have no air gap?
4. I was planning on looking at some fabric from spoonflower (website) since there is a thread on here talking about how to make custom acoustic panels. Do people generally buy from a fabric store. This would be nice if I can do that, and allow my girlfriend to help pick something out with me but everything I see indicates that if you can blow through it, it is good enough. Is it really?
5. What exactly is straddling...straddling the wall?
6. I am willing to purchase a calibrated mic (parts express?) in order to figure out what I need to be addressing as I am not sure what I am bothered with. The room has some serious echo going on...and is quite evident when clapping in the room. I am not sure what else is wrong in particular, and would like to narrow it down






Thanks for your help and if this is the wrong thread, I do apologize.
I bookmarked this long time ago: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1295338/best-material-for-acoustic-panels/30 but after rereading it, I am not sure what to think. One thing I am sure is I would like to address the behind my head issue (and probably two panels up front) before moving to a corner bass trap.
post #9138 of 10203
E2g

Do 1 thing at a time.

If I were you, I'd do in order.

Create a RFZ on sidewalls, use 4" 703 with 4" air gap if possible.
See how that improves your imaging and soundstage

Next:
Broadband bass traps, bigger is best, they will help reduce your bass decay to improve the bass PQ. As much coverage as you can, really big ones use pink fluffy. There are separate threads on why.

I'd stay away from backwall treatments for now, until you do the above, then get into the whole measurement thing.
Maybe you don't need back wall treatments.

Have fun, DIY will save some $ for you.


Sent from my iPhone4 using Tapatalk
[edit]
ok doing this on iPhone i could NOT see your living room layout.
You might want to consider moveable stand mounted side RFZ panels, possible wrapped in the spoonflower fabric for WAF/GF aesthetics.
Might even consider a ceiling cloud for the RFZ, 6" thick with 6" air gap.
Edited by mtbdudex - 10/16/12 at 5:53pm
post #9139 of 10203
mtbdudex

Thanks for the suggestion. I am limited on the thickness for our space. So I will just play around with the max I can go, and see where it takes me from there.
post #9140 of 10203
e2g;
Totally understand space limitations.
Since your area is non-symmetrical, LH open very much and RH has doorwall, you might consider an acoustic cloud to handle ceiling reflections......
You'd have to ditch the fan, and re-do your ceiling lights.....

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1312693/diy-construction-methods-of-hang-able-acoustic-panels-not-fixed-frames#post_19987247


Again measurements do seem best in your case, ETC, depends on how serious you are to truly identification the WHAT to do, then tackle/improve your acoustics.
A good recent thread is here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1432713/using-waterfall-and-etc-graphs-to-analyze-room-response
Edited by mtbdudex - 10/21/12 at 5:41pm
post #9141 of 10203
Quick question mtbdudex, well, more like a confirmation.

I haven't called any stores yet to see if they sell Owen Corning 703 and how much if they do but I came across this and it seems pretty cheap: Roxul Safe n Sound

http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&productId=3285120&cId=

I really liked this guys design, and will end up going with something like this: http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1036726646&postcount=18 . Seems like it lessens any reflections that can occur from the frame itself. So my question, since I have never came across this Roxul Safe and Sound, and seeing that OC 703 is obviously looks nice and rigid, would going with the rigid fiberglass be a better option if I want the front of the panel to be nice and squared/flat shape. Or will the Roxul provide enough rigidness to not look like I have a pillow hanging on the wall?


I think I will doing something like this for our front room (front wall behind the plasma). and trying to squeeze in as thick of a panel as I can around the front corner:




Thanks for the links!

EDIT:

According to this site - Link, it would be wise to use less dense material such as the safe n sound in the corners, but provided that I have the corners at least 6" or more deep. I am planning on covering most of the wall in the front but some of these tiles (according to that picture) will not have any insulation in them to not overdo the mids and the highs. I just want to be sure if I can stick to one type of insulation (preferably cheap), and double up on a single panel for added thickness (air gap too) if I get the opportunity all the while having something such that when I wrap with cloth, it doesn't look like a pillow but have a nice clean finish.
Edited by e2g_ - 10/24/12 at 9:47pm
post #9142 of 10203
Anyone in the Ne Ohio area that could help with a treatment layout
post #9143 of 10203
Quote:
Originally Posted by e2g_ View Post

Quick question mtbdudex, well, more like a confirmation.
I haven't called any stores yet to see if they sell Owen Corning 703 and how much if they do but I came across this and it seems pretty cheap: Roxul Safe n Sound
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&productId=3285120&cId=
I really liked this guys design, and will end up going with something like this: http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1036726646&postcount=18 . Seems like it lessens any reflections that can occur from the frame itself. So my question, since I have never came across this Roxul Safe and Sound, and seeing that OC 703 is obviously looks nice and rigid, would going with the rigid fiberglass be a better option if I want the front of the panel to be nice and squared/flat shape. Or will the Roxul provide enough rigidness to not look like I have a pillow hanging on the wall?.

Roxul Safe'n'Sound is cheap and a good bet for acoustics, but just as you proposed is very floppy and needs a frame. It would look like a pillow as you suggest. It is very light and floppy.
post #9144 of 10203
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIK Acoustics View Post

Roxul Safe'n'Sound is cheap and a good bet for acoustics, but just as you proposed is very floppy and needs a frame. It would look like a pillow as you suggest. It is very light and floppy.

I used Roxul inside of my main stage. Pretty easy to work with and cuts like butter.
post #9145 of 10203

Found this today for anyone pondering building a DIY QRD.

 

http://www.mh-audio.nl/diffusor.asp#calcul

post #9146 of 10203
Quote:
Originally Posted by GIK Acoustics View Post

Roxul Safe'n'Sound is cheap and a good bet for acoustics, but just as you proposed is very floppy and needs a frame. It would look like a pillow as you suggest. It is very light and floppy.

Thanks. I may have found one place that sells OC 703. It seems like Roxul/Rockwool Rockboard 60 is a good alternative as well but no one seems to carry it.
post #9147 of 10203
It was suggested that I post this in this wonderful thread that I did not know existed and given that you guys are obviously the ones to talk to about this, I suppose I need to give a little insight into my exact situation so you know what I'm asking to begin with.

Here are a couple of picture of my living room where I am setting this all up as well as an updated pic of the work I had to do to the mantle to get the new center channel speaker to fit. The mantle has since been completed and painted as of the time this pic was taken.

**Update** I've added a couple pics with the new speakers.










The speakers shown in these pictures, except for the last picture of the mantle, are focal's. (I've since added a couple new pics of the mounted bookcase speakers) They are bookshelf speakers that I recessed into the wall when we got the tv set up over the mantle thinking that was just awesome. rolleyes.gif After having the Focal's for some time, it became more and more annoying that sometimes I would have a hard time making out voices, etc. and the 8in sub that came with the kit was a far cry from what I needed to fill that space so I thought that just getting bigger better speakers would do the trick.

Anyway, these focals are gone now, the holes are patched up and in their place, on Omnimount 60.0 brackets, are Paradigm Studio 20 bookshelf speakers, a cc-590 center on the mantle, and ADP-590 surrounds, which are actually coming in the mail today and I have not fully decided how to mount just yet. The ADP's however, will not be mounted on the wall behind the couch, on either side of the window like the focal's are now. They will most likely go on side walls, to the left and right of the couch. I was thinking of putting a couple of acoustic panels on either side of the window where the focals currently reside. The Studio 20's are pointed slighty in from an apporximate 30 degree angle and the cc-590 center as well as the Studio 20's are all pointed slightly down into the listening position. The center channel, as you can see, has to no choice but to be butted up against the stone, as there is just no other place to put it. It is rear ported and I've plugged the port with styrofoam and the sound seems to be quite good out of it. I can not hear any chuffing or boomy muddy bass/sound from it. Would it be of benefit to put some Roxul insulation behind it?

Also, I have replaced the 8" sub with the Premier Acoustics PA-150 15" subwoofer. I have an Onkyo tx-sr507 (which can be seen in the right side of the third picture) with Audyssey which I have learned is much better at setting up the speakers the way they should be than I am. So I've run Audyssey, it has the speakers crossing over at 70, etc., and I've set the subwoofer accordingly and have not touched the settings there after. The sub is sitting in between the big fluffy chair and the end table, basically under the receiver that is mounted to the wall behind the fluffy chair. It is a couple of feet away from the wall and pointed straight out into the room.

So here is the problem. With Audyssey set up, speakers set up to the best of my limited acoustic ability, when I put a movie in and watch it for a while, (LOTR, or Master and Commander, any good surround sound movie) it initially seems to sound awesome, but I still feel like I should be able to hear the voices clearer and as if that wasn't annoying enough, after a short bit, I notice that my ears are actually starting to hurt which makes no sense to me because I am not playing it louder than when I go into a movie theater and my ears aren't hurting when I'm done watching a movie in a theater. This led me to search google and I find a thing called "listening fatigue" and it seems to be from horrible acoustics more than anything which seems to go along with the fact that I have "clap echo". I know its not the Paradigms because I auditioned them for quite a while and bought them specifically because they were so much easier to listen to than the Klipsh's which I did noticed were hard on my ears.

So that is where I am at, and is why I am looking at making some acoustic panels, most probably from the 3 1/2 in Roxul from lowes that is routinely recommended. I was thinking of putting a couple acoustic panels above the love seat at the first reflection, and maybe a couple more on the slanted ceiling above the couch at reflection points there, and was considering putting them higher up on the walls, above all the pictures to help deaden the sound echoing out of the cathedral ceiling. Also a couple on either side of the picture window. I am also toying with the idea of an acoustic "cloud". Just saw some plans for a couple today. We have some nice thick black-out blinds that I can draw down in front of the window, as well as the curtains to help keep noise from bouncing off the glass. For a reference of scale on how large the room is, the tv is 65". Also, with the bookshelf speakers on the Omnimounts, they are only about 8" away from the wall so should I put an acoustic panel directly behind them as well?

Any insight into how to better this situation is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for all the great input so far!!
post #9148 of 10203
Wow, good luck, GrasaDeCastor.
Tackling acoustics in a general/open living room is so much more challenging than a dedicated Home Theater.

Is changing your room layout an option?
Such as moving your set-up 90 degrees, putting your front soundstage speakers at ear height, your rear surrounds on speaker stands?
Then doing a basic sub crawl for optimal sub location.

Then run audyssey and see how it sounds.
Then, you could consider some movable side acoustic panels for 1st reflection absorption as initial step.


Possible some corner broadband bass traps, but that's later down the road.
I'm surprised Audyssey does not dial down your over bright/reflective sound with its eq at least somewhat even now as your set-up is.

Just throwing that out there.......
Edited by mtbdudex - 10/31/12 at 3:56am
post #9149 of 10203
Looking for some help to start in my room . Was thinking of making some panels or bass traps do my room. Which would you start with?

And if bass traps would you do the front two corners first or the back two?

I have been reading many threads on how to build. It's all starting to confuse me . Any certain measures I should keep on track with or any link that I should stick to for the build?


It will be going in a 7.2 or 7.3 theater room used or mostly movies an gaming.
post #9150 of 10203
All modes are active in tri-corners. Start there. Wall-wall is a corner. Wall-floor is a corner. Wall-ceiling is a corner. Wall-wall-ceiling is a tri-corner. Wall-wall-floor is a tri-corner. Beyond tri-corners, which are "bonus" corners, a corner is a corner is a corner.

If you have measurement software, use that to find your most active/troublesome modes, and that will dictate more efficient placement, and alternative treatments. IOW, test, hypothesize/diagnose, treat, repeat.

In an otherwise empty/reflective room, studiotips superchunks and first reflection point absorbers are a good thing. In other rooms, your mileage will vary.
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