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The Official HD Leeza review thread. - Page 2  

post #31 of 1632
Thread Starter 
Nick
The blinking blue light without a source is normal.
post #32 of 1632
After the lengthy positiver review on the Miranda piece and the short and sweet review on the Leeza . I think that either it did not blow you away or you are saving some business for the Assimilator.
I think you owe us at least some vague review on a scale basis

ex: 1.Piece of crap for the money
2.
3.
4.middle of the road scaler
5.
6.HTPC 6 or 7 could be changed depends on what
7. Faroudja 5000 camp you are from.
8.
9.
10. TERANAX
So is it a 6- 1/2 , 7- 1/2 , 8, 9, 9 -1/2, 10 or what if 11 or what if a 5-1/2

We are all waiting. Remember your review of the Miranda 4101

Thanks JC
post #33 of 1632
Thread Starter 
I did not have the time to spend with the HD Leeza I did with the Miranda. I opened a unit that was being installed for a local customer and only had it for a short period of time. I did use it with hd material and dvi dvd and I was very impressed.
I look froward to hearing feedback from others who are installing the unit in their system and obviously will be spending more time with it then I had.

This scaler has everything the Teranex does not have but needs.
I think everyone will be pleased.
post #34 of 1632
There are now #34 posts in the "official" thread, but nothing resembling a review really. :(
post #35 of 1632
I got my HD Leeza on Tuesday and finally had the chance to set it up in my friends theater today. It replaces a Faroudja NRS 720P which is connected to a Sony 1272. All my sources pass through a KD Matrix switch before reaching the Leeza. Anyhow my ultimate goal was to try and cross convert 1080i material from my HD cable box to 720p since the projector can resolve this resolution fuller. I also wanted to cross convert the 1080i signal coming from my JVC 30K DVHS deck to 720p. I did the initial sytem setup and set my output aspect to 1.85:1 and setup my HD component input aspect at 2.35:1 for the DVHS deck. I set my resolution at 1280 X 720p @ 60Hz. At first the HDL seemed to have a harder time syncing up to the projector than the NRS did. I flipped the resoution to 540p and it sync'd fine since I had 1080i already converged as one stored setting in the projector. Then I would set the resolution back to 1280 X 720p @ 60Hz and it sync'd up perfect. I seem to have to do this everytime I power on and off the HDL. Once sync'd up I was absolutley amazed at the superior detail I was seeing. My source material again was X-MEN on the JVC DVHS. With the 1272 being fed 1080i originally from the JVC deck I was missing detail, contrast deepness, color depth. After the HDL cross coverts and sends out a 720p signal the image displayed takes on a whole new life. Scenes with rapid camera movement or high speed objects no longer exihibit the interlaced artifacting that's inherient of 1080i. The ability to manipulate the picture setting also came in rather handy as I could tweak the contrast and saturation of the HD material to my liking...something I was never able to do before. My next test was to ues the PBS HD Loop off the cable box. It yeilded results that exceeded my highest expectations....fly-by's of some of the European shores made me feel like I was in the plane looking out the window. The clarity at which it was presented was incredable. Again...the artifacting that I was normally seeing was virtaully non-existant. My future test for the HDL is to compare ABC's native 720p signal to the HDL processing ABC's signal at 720p and see whether I can notice much of a difference. I plan on doing this during the Stanley Cup playoff's. Hopefully soon I'll be able to get out the 1292 to run the HDL at 1080p and compare it to the F5000. Overall my initial experience with the HDL has been excellent and I'm very pleased with it's performance. My only complaint the the sluggishness in the menu system...wish that was a little quicker...but I guess we can't have it all. I'll post some more coments once I run some more tests.

~Ryan
post #36 of 1632
One more thing....I just got done playing around with running my Panasonic RP-82 (running in progressive mode) into the HD component input of the HDL. I was using Star Wars EPII as my source material. After a half hour of tweaking I must say I wasn't impressed. I hooked back up the NRS and wow....to me the NRS was much clearer and vivid with SD material than the HDL. Again...I believe I need to spend some more time with the HDL to get it right, it took me 3-4 hours of playing with it to get the HD material where I wanted it. I want to run the RP-82 in interlaced mode through the SD Component input on the HDL and see what happens. I'll do this sometime tomorrow. Just wanted to post an update with the SD tests.

~Ryan
post #37 of 1632
Given that the NRS only takes interlaced input, you're really not comparing apples to apples... It may be the DVD player's fault that 480p didn't look good. I'll wager that 480i input will look better going into the HDL.
post #38 of 1632
Hi,

Well, the RP82 progressive is almost as good as any (besides a FLI2300 output) progressive output can get. If the scaler can't do good with it, then the scaler won't do good with other progressive too.

regards,

Li On
post #39 of 1632
reg152,

I agree with Michael on this, as this is not quite a fair test, as there are two separate processes taking place. Either hook it up through SDI (interlaced) or through SD component input, and let us know if there's any improvement.

Also, I would not expect a dramatic improvement of 720p material when configured for native resolution. This is already preprocessed, and there's very little that processing or scaling will do to improve it. The same (to a slightly lesser extent) applies to 480p.

The big benefit would be when scaling SDI, SD component, and 1080i. For progressive signals (RGB, DVI, HD Component) there is only a scaling aspect to them. The benefit of routing those is to prevent the internal scaler from kicking in, using one projector memory for all your input, and using the unit as a switcher. It would be interesting to connect a PC through the RGB input and seeing how the HDL (I like the name!) will handle that.

I have a question that no one has answered yet. Do the buttons on the remote provide you with direct access to specific inputs and aspect ratios (i.e., can I press a single button to always reach SD component? Can I press a single button to always reach 4:3 anamorphic?).

Does the unit have separate memories per input (does it remember the last aspect ratio, or other setting per input)?

Rogo,

I think I'd prefer a thorough review, over a "quicky" that is not in depth...

I guess we can wait a few more days for a more thorough review.
post #40 of 1632
in my opinion, the biggest advantage of the HDL is the Clearmatrix Pro which can de-interlace SD and HD. That by far is the hardest job and Mike T has done it well.
I would still expect to see scaling artifacts, depending on how many new points have to be created, whether the HDL does it all the way to NR, the display does it, or both contribute. My guess is the HDL will do it best.

Ofer (or anyone): how would you describe scaling artifacts (as opposed to de-interlacing issues)?

that said, the 1080iHD to 720p conversion sounds very, very promising.
post #41 of 1632
I agree with the fact that I don't think it was quite a fair test. I plan on hooking the RP-82 up to the SD inputs and also trying the SDI modded RP-62 to see what results the HDL will yeild. I wish I had some better techinical expertise in video processors to give you guys a better review...sorry!!

~Ryan
post #42 of 1632
Quote:
Originally posted by jlm
in my opinion, the biggest advantage of the HDL is the Clearmatrix Pro which can de-interlace SD and HD. That by far is the hardest job and Mike T has done it well.
I would still expect to see scaling artifacts, depending on how many new points have to be created, whether the HDL does it all the way to NR, the display does it, or both contribute. My guess is the HDL will do it best.
My HDL arrived this morning and I'm just breaking for lunch. I have spent the last couple of hours playing (and comparing to my Faroudja 5000); the HDL beats in the F5000 in a number of important areas: Y/C chroma delay (perfect), colour banding (none, so, perfect), and sharpness (especially with SDI), but the HDL has some problems with deinterlacing; while watching the "Reconstructing Leloo" scene in Fifth Element, I noticed a few *significant* deinterlacing/artefact problems which I've never seen on the Faroudja.

I have a list of specific tests to do, but lunch first. A fuller report later.

Mark
post #43 of 1632
Mark,

I'm going to hook up my SDI RP-62 later to the HDL and try the SD scaling again. I'll try that scene in the Fifth Element and see if it yeilds the same result.

jlm,

I agree the biggest advantage to the HDL is the ClearMatrix Pro's ability to deinterlace SD and HD. It certainly passed at HD scaling for me...but again I wasn't so successful with SD material, however I still have quite a few SD tests to run.

~Ryan
post #44 of 1632
just to wring out the system, I would like to see these tests:

1. dvi in, 1080iHD:
...a. output as dvi;
...b. output as rgb (or component)
2. component in, 480i from dvd:
...a. output as dvi;
...b. output as rgb (or component)
3. dvi/HDCP 1080i: (using CP material from the sat test station)
...a. output as dvi/CP to CP compliant display

I left out sdi; do that as well!

finally, a check to see how the display accepts NR, and if the internal scaler is disabled.
post #45 of 1632
Quote:
Originally posted by reg152
Mark,

I'm going to hook up my SDI RP-62 later to the HDL and try the SD scaling again. I'll try that scene in the Fifth Element and see if it yeilds the same result.

jlm,
Things to look for:

The computer generated feet during the reconstruction: lots of noise in there. But the biggest, and easiest problem to spot is when she jumps through the wall and runs down the corrugated tube... watch the right hand side of the tube as she runs down it - very nasty artefacting appears in a significant area.


Quote:

I agree the biggest advantage to the HDL is the ClearMatrix Pro's ability to deinterlace SD and HD. It certainly passed at HD scaling for me...but again I wasn't so successful with SD material, however I still have quite a few SD tests to run.
~Ryan
I will test HD scaling once I'm happy with SD material.

OK, lunch over, back to it!

I should point out I'm testing with CRT, with DVD fed via SDI.

Mark
post #46 of 1632
Hi Mark,

Funny you should mention that 5th element scene, I've recently run it using various displays and configurations.

I believe the artifacts (strong noise issues, and occasional other problems) are in the source. I have never seen a good rendition of that scene on any display. This is a VERY problematic scene to fix. I guess only a very strong selective 2D/3D noise filter *might* kill that artifact.

Perhaps the Miranda would do better with it (It's hard to tell if it's noise, a compression artifact or grain combined with a problem in the transfer).

Jlm,

Scaling aritfacts are difficult to put into words. It's usually a question of perceived sharpness. It is much easier to demonstrate on an A-B test than to point out distinctly. A well scaled image looks sharp and has more detail. A badly scaled image can have jaggies (due to scan lines, not a deinterlacing artifact!) and appears much softer.
post #47 of 1632
At the end of that scene when the cop shouts down the tube to her she turns round and looks back. In the top right corner of the tube you see artifacts. Also keep it going and have a look at the vents bside where she exits building and also the ledges on the buildings around her.

Looking forward to hearing more from Mark. He's got a pretty good display device for seeing problems on!.....and some pretty neato sources too!

Gordon
post #48 of 1632
Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Grant
Given that the NRS only takes interlaced input, you're really not comparing apples to apples... It may be the DVD player's fault that 480p didn't look good. I'll wager that 480i input will look better going into the HDL.
I, for one, hope he's right, but . . . .480i is not listed as input on the HD LEEZA, which causes me to question if you can even feed it

The manual identifies "Standards accepted" as:

1080i 59.94/60Hz
720 progressive 59.94/60Hz
480 progressive 59.94/60Hz

It says nothing about accepting a 480i input, which would give you the only level field of comparison. I'm hoping that means something other than it says, although each of my players are progressive scan and could output the 480p signal. I just don't see why 480i would be omitted as an acceptable standard for scaling.

If it's a progressive signal that the HD LEEZA will accept, doesn't that mean it's scaling an already-scaled signal?

Nick :cool:
post #49 of 1632
OK, I'm calling it a day for now... tomorrow - greyscale calibration!

Here are my thoughts... deinterlacing works very well... I now think the problems I saw in Fifth Element are actually scaling artefacts, not deinterlacing. HD delinterlacing was perfect, or near as; I saw no major problems at all... I guess SD uses the same deinterlacing algorithm, hence my switch to believing the problems lay with scaling.

Test equipment: Faroudja 5000, Meridian 800 with SDI/component, Barco Reality 812 projector, JVC D-Theater/Panny HD1000, Milori Gregatech Eye for greyscale and, of course, the HD Leeza.

I am not biased towards the Faroudja in any way - I would *love* to replace it with something better, so anything I say below, I believe, is objective. With this in mind, I am primarily looking for areas where the HDL out/underperforms the Faroudja in order to decide whether or not I can replace the F5000 with the HDL.

Basic use.

The unit is very clumsy. It is slow to navigate and I often hit buttons which not only removed the menu, but for some reason blocked me from getting back in. I had to switch inputs, and then switch back again, to reset. There are no navigation buttons on the front of the unit; control is via the remote. No RS232 codes are supplied with the unit so I cannot yet integrate/test it with my Crestron.

The input order on the front panel does not match the selection order via the remote, which is very confusing.

I started with DVD, aiming to set the HDL up to replace my Faroudja for subsequent testing. Unfortunately, there is no true 960p setting as default (quadrupling), but, if I understand the custom settings correctly, I was able to create a 1440 x 960p. Unfortunately, I then discovered that unless you use 1080P, you are unable to switch to HD, as the HDL claims there is no HD source. With 1080P selected as the output resolution I was able to switch between both SD/HD source, so I left output resolution at 1080p. Fortunately, my projector can handle this, but this is a problem which needs fixing.

Input/Output aspect ratios are many, but I settled for 1.33 input and 1.33 output. I assume this means the HDL does no scaling/squashing and that I can control that via the projector for anamorphic sources. Lots of aspect ratios available. There is a DSX mode (on/off) available for 1.33; there is no description of what this means so I left on "off".

I won't cover contrast/brightness/color etc as I'll be doing greyscale tomorrow, but, from initial fiddling, I am concerned that they are not as useful as those found on the Farouda.

I've already posted some initial comments, so here are some more detailed observations:

Sound & Vision Test Disc:
==================
The Focus Pattern:
The bottom 4 rows of pixels are corrupt. This must be due to a problem with the scaling algorithm and could, I guess, affect video images. This needs to be fixed.

Avia Test Disc:
==========
Vertical grey ramp: no banding that I could see, much smoother transitions than the Faroudja, which can exhibit banding in some scenes.

Resolution pattern: With the Faroudja, there is lots of noise in the 3.58Mhz, 4.2Mhz and 6.75Mhz circles. The HDL was totally clean. However, the 6.75Mhz was only fully resolved via the SDI connection. SDI looked sharper than the component connection from the Meridian.

Y/C Delay screen: the Faroudja suffers some chroma delay. The HDL was perfect.

Zone Plate: Faroudja is riddled with noise on this image... the HDL was clean.

Moving zone plate: The Faroudja struggles with this moving pattern but was significantly better at it than the HDL. The HDL display was *nasty* :D

Video Essentials
============

Snell & Wilcox plate: Moving ball - again, the HDL was worse than the Faroudja at displaying the moving image.

I feel this ties in with the Fifth Element scene, which is essentially a set of very close lines in a circular pattern - I guess the scalar must incorrectly interpolate these kinds of patterns.

Montage of images: this was a surprise - the HDL outperformed the Faroudja entirely during this sequence. The HDL seems to handle film and video equally well, and in scenes where the Faroudja failed to deinterlace correctly (the tops of the masts on the swaying yachts) the HDL performed flawlessly. The HDL also rendered the US Flag better than the Faroudja.

It seems that the HDL is deinterlacing very well, but there is definately a problem somewhere, which I now suspect is in the scaling.

More problems:

The 48Hz NTSC mode does not work well at present, which is a disappointment to me; I was hoping to switch to 48Hz for all my film viewing.

When you first select 48Hz the HDL starts to stutter the image. Selecting it again resolves this problem. Worse than this, however are two problems which show up. Firstly, a very faint picture structure becomes visible; it almost looks like vertical scan lines are visible. Worse still, on static menus, such as the Avia menu, there is a massive amount of twitter visible. This twitter was also visible while watching moving images. 48Hz is, IMO, currently unwatchable. I'm not interested in 72Hz so only switched it to check for the problems I saw with 48Hz, but they weren't there. 72Hz is not available at 1080p.

Contrary to what has been reported, I could not get settings be remembered across inputs. Currently any settings seem to be shared globally across all inputs. This means I will be forced to do all greyscale calibration at the projector and I'm concerned that colour saturation, which is only available at the scalar, will have to be compromised for one of the sources until this is fixed.

I have not yet tested PAL, I will do that tomorrow.

Overall impression?

Well, apart from the few visual problems I've noted, I am sufficiently impressed with the image to continue using the HDL in favour of the Faroudja for now. SD images were sharper and cleaner (via SDI) and the lack of Y/C delay, banding, is very welcome. HD images also seemed sharper and the deinterlacing was superb. I now need to do a greyscale calibration and then sit down and actually watch some movies!

I'm sure i've missed a lot of stuff, so if there are any specific question...

Cheers,

Mark

PS. If checking with the Fifth Element, during the scene where the police are looking down the tunnel, with leloo on the ledge; as well as checking the right side of the tunnel, check the numbers on the police helmets - the numbers should not be connected in any way, but the HDL renders them with connected white lines - again incorrect scaling it seems...
post #50 of 1632
Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Hi Mark,

Funny you should mention that 5th element scene, I've recently run it using various displays and configurations.

I believe the artifacts (strong noise issues, and occasional other problems) are in the source. I have never seen a good rendition of that scene on any display. This is a VERY problematic scene to fix. I guess only a very strong selective 2D/3D noise filter *might* kill that artifact.
The Faroudja 5000 renders it perfectly, which is why it stuck out so much when I was testing...

Mark
post #51 of 1632
Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Satullo
I, for one, hope he's right, but . . . .480i is not listed as input on the HD LEEZA, which causes me to question if you can even feed it

The manual identifies "Standards accepted" as:

1080i 59.94/60Hz
720 progressive 59.94/60Hz
480 progressive 59.94/60Hz

It says nothing about accepting a 480i input, which would give you the only level field of comparison.
It accepts 480i.

Mark
post #52 of 1632
The SDI input is 480i isn't it? I would think that it has to accept this becuase most other video is a 480i input i.e. DSS, VCR(ugh!), LD, cable box.
post #53 of 1632
Thread Starter 
Wow the HDL has made it halfway around the world already:)
post #54 of 1632
Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
Hi Mark,

Funny you should mention that 5th element scene, I've recently run it using various displays and configurations.

I believe the artifacts (strong noise issues, and occasional other problems) are in the source. I have never seen a good rendition of that scene on any display. This is a VERY problematic scene to fix. I guess only a very strong selective 2D/3D noise filter *might* kill that artifact.

I checked that scene. It does not have major problems
with motion rendition via a Faroudja. It looks quite good.
The transfer does have DNR problems, but nothing bad in
that scene. If the numbers on the helmets get linked it
sounds like HD Leeza applies interpolation when it should
do inverse 2:3 pulldown. Instable 2:3 sequence detection?
post #55 of 1632
Do you mean 3:2 pulldown? 2:3 pulldown isn't listed for the HDL.
post #56 of 1632
The Matrix:

At the end of the lobby fighting scene, check the elevator UP button... the HD Leeza renders it incorrectly, instead of a clear triangle, there is a horizontal line under the apex of the triangle. Then in the elevator, the suitcase's "grainy" surface is badly rendered.

The "busy" fight scene in the lobby looked fine.

Please note: I'm not trying to detract from the HD Leeza, but simply pointing out scenes which most will be able to check. One of the big advantages of the HDL is the firmware upgrades - no doubt Key will fix this problem and supply an upgrade in the near future.

Mark.
post #57 of 1632
I don't want to comment too much about picture quality but can confirm what Mark has posted. I watched about 40 minutes of LOTR at 1080i scaled down to 768P on my Pioneer plasma and couldn't see any artifacts. It was pretty amazing. SD Pal and NTSC DVD's looked pretty much as Mark describes...as is functionality. These are issues that I'm sure the guys at Key will address soon.

More as it happens!

Gordon
post #58 of 1632
Based on KD performance with the Digital Leeza (proud owner of one) I am sure that upgrades will surely follow in the near future. They did an excellant job with my version considering the issues they had with their licensing partners
post #59 of 1632
Well on the way to being a killer product it seems.
post #60 of 1632
The more I use it, the more I like it. And as for the problems I'm seeing, as Dan points out, Key have the ability to provide fixes - hopefully these won't be too far away...

Mark
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