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Replay MPEG Sync problem, this tool may help us... - Page 3  

post #61 of 396
At one time I d/l all my shows through DVArchive. Something happened, maybe it was some advice from this forum, but
I reinstalled windows and forgot to back up the file that contained all the guide info.
So I had to import everything by creating another dir, moving all the files, importing them and adding all the info.
These are the file I've been working with that have had audio sync problems.
Since then I've done around 5 reboots, this time not adding java or DVA.
Loaded WinReplayPC, run regsvr on a dll in my system32 folder and set it up to receive a bunch of files from the Replay.
When loaded, edited, and saved with Womble...Perfect Sync!!!
Going to try the gop fixer next , although I don't think I need it as all my
shows burn just fine to DVD with DvdLab and DvdMF2.
p.s. I also used Power dvd for the codecs.
post #62 of 396
As an alternative to the GOP fix tool, try de-muxing and then re-muxing. I've only tried this once, but it did seem to fix a file I was having problems with.
post #63 of 396
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by kb2tdu
Noticed that sometimes pasting a clip into Womble doesn't always start at the last frame of the previous clip, sometimes have to drag the insert point or type in the frame position ... spent a while finding this after having some odd frames show up in eary Wombling efforts ... maybe you are seeing the same thing.

kb2tdu, on the right side of the clip window there are four small buttons below the timecode. The one that looks like a _| with an arrow at the top is move to end of clip. That works the best for moving the insertion point to the end of the clip you are editing. Works better than any drag method I've used. =)
post #64 of 396
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by acourvil
As an alternative to the GOP fix tool, try de-muxing and then re-muxing. I've only tried this once, but it did seem to fix a file I was having problems with.
acourvil, demux & mux doesn't do anything to the stream except demux (split) and mux (interleave) the data streams. The gop fix actually does a lot of "little" things to the stream for the first two passes. The third pass acutall restructures bad GOPs, this involves destructing a bad GOP and reconstructing one or more good GOPs from the source.

The only time I've see the error counts change is by acutally editing and saving. The save seems to correct the PTS and other small errors.
post #65 of 396
Thread Starter 
Almost forgot!!! Jim, good to hear you got something that works! You took the long way, but glad to see it working for you!! Good to see the backup space in the new configuration. =)
post #66 of 396
I have also noticed that I use the button that you referred to Jeff, but still have a 0.1s segment that gets stuck after the insterted clip... i have actually been leaving it there lately... started doing it a few weeks ago to try to see if it would help my sync problems... i thought it was rather odd... and still do...
post #67 of 396
>>acourvil, demux & mux doesn't do anything to the stream except demux (split) and
>>mux (interleave) the data streams. The gop fix actually does a lot of "little" things
>>to the stream for the first two passes. The third pass acutall restructures bad GOPs,
>>this involves destructing a bad GOP and reconstructing one or more good GOPs from
>>the source.

>>The only time I've see the error counts change is by acutally editing and saving. The
>>save seems to correct the PTS and other small errors.

Womble's de-mux/mux does seem to be doing something to correct errors. As I said above, doing that fixed a file I was having problems with - even after running the GOP fixer. After a de-mux/mux cycle, the file showed no errors. I just ran 2 more files that showed thousands of PTS errors, and after de-mux/mux, the resulting file shows no PTS errors. I understand that the video is not re-encoded so GOPs are not changed, but the de-mux/mux is changing something. Maybe the information in the headers is changed; isn't that where the PTS and timecode info is?
post #68 of 396
[quote]Originally posted by Jeff D
[b]Ok, to clear up one thing that everyone keeps bringing up that just isn't a factor.... If a file plays fine on one machine and not another machine, it's not the COPY that screwed something up. If this were the case microsoft would be in a heap of trouble because of the fact that the file transfers don't "copy" a file. Think of how many word documents would get screwed up because the "copy" didn't work. It's not going to happen the file transfer, almost always, will give you an identical file when copied from one PC to another.

I only report what happened. And no it was absolutely not a "playback" issue. It was only that ONE file. BOTH computers downloaded and edited and authored tons of ReplayTV mpegs. Computer A was often used without issue. And never had a problem. Computer B also was used and never had a problem. The only problem was this one mpeg that was downloaded to one computer and moved to another.

Like I said .. it defies all logic. If it WERE a decoding problem on computer B, then why did OTHER downloads made directly to that computer work fine? With the same decoder that was playing the "transferred" mpeg way out of sync?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not inferring anything about the accuracy of an http file transfer from the ReplayTV to the computer. Everyone seems a little sensative about that <grin> I'm only pointing out one strange sync problem I had that defied all logic.

Both computers played mpegs fine before and after the "event". I suppose maybe one codec might have jumped up to take over my video world for that one instance, but I doubt it.

I've seen the results of a HORRIBLY fragmented hard drive that had just enough free space to fit a 2 GB file that was transferred to it. It ain't pretty. And codecs have nothing to do with it.
post #69 of 396
Quote:
Originally posted by JohhnyReplay
jbarr, Can you try one of those movies again and include the GOP fix? I amThe implication from the thread right now is that GOP fix is creating problems... Now thta you have a clean system, we should try it out and see if it does or does not creat problems... I don;t think it will create a problem on a clean system.. At least, that has been my experience....
I took the "raw" "Flatliners" 2-hour untouched file and ran it through the GOP Fixer, and when I played it through Womble and PowerDVD, the audio was slightly out of sync near the end. Not hugely, but noticable.

I will be recording a longer program and run the same tests against it and let you know what happens. Preliminarily, it looks like simply cutting and saving leaves it in excellent condition.
post #70 of 396
Quote:
Originally posted by jbarr
I took the "raw" "Flatliners" 2-hour untouched file and ran it through the GOP Fixer, and when I played it through Womble and PowerDVD, the audio was slightly out of sync near the end. Not hugely, but noticable.

I will be recording a longer program and run the same tests against it and let you know what happens. Preliminarily, it looks like simply cutting and saving leaves it in excellent condition.
I almost never use the GOP fix. Even when there are reports of PTS errors.

Like I say often, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. However ... and this is important .. you DO need to use the GOP fix on occassion and I have (albeit rare). What I do is load the raw mpeg into womble. Then scrub to the end of the movie. If I have a one hour movie and Womble shows the time code at the end to be one hour, then I continue to do my normal editing and don't even bother checking the GOPs.

BUT, every once in a while I'll find the reported time in womble to be way off. Like that one hour movie will be reporting 20 minutes or something.

If you try to edit with that scenario you will have a pretty screwed up mpeg in the end. So when that happen I run GOP fixer and after being parsed through GF, the new time will then show properly and the file will edit correctly.

MOST of the time you do not need to use GOP fixer. Even when you have a ton of PTS errors. At least that's how I've been doing it.

FWIW, I was using Womble on the RPTV mpeg long before there was a GOP fixer. And when I had that screwed up time code once in a while I had to resort to other methods to fix it. Usually parsing it through TMPgenc or some other multiplexor.
post #71 of 396
Here's my questions after reading this long and winding thread:

1.Do you need Womble to avoid audio sync errors on 2hr+ replay files?

It seems like our heroes who have no audio sync issues are using womble as one of the steps. I was hoping to figure out the cause of the audio sync problem before investing in Womble.

2. One guess from someone who knows nothing: Are frames being dropped from the video that aren't compliant during the dvd compilation, resulting in an ever increasing audio lag as time goes by?
post #72 of 396
Thread Starter 
acourvil, this may explain what you saw...

http://www.molehill.org/twiki/bin/vi...V5KMPEG-2Usage

With the 5k mpegs the muxrates are appear to be incorrect. I believe the muxrate is the same as an iterleave rate, which states for every x-bytes of video data there is a section of audio data. This way the audio and video data is kept with the other data for the same point in time.

Your finding sound valid and there may be true there may be more to this. Thanks for pointing it out.
post #73 of 396
Thread Starter 
Did anyone else notice on the gspot webpage...

Soon: Selectively enable/disable or register/unregister codecs by right clicking on them, permitting the user to control which codec is used - on a format by format basis if possible. This will be extremely useful for many situations.


This could be very cool!
post #74 of 396
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff D
Did anyone else notice on the gspot webpage...

Soon: Selectively enable/disable or register/unregister codecs by right clicking on them, permitting the user to control which codec is used - on a format by format basis if possible. This will be extremely useful for many situations.


This could be very cool!

Waaayyyy cool ... ;)

We'll be beating a path to that door for sure.
post #75 of 396
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by HarryTheHat
Here's my questions after reading this long and winding thread:

1.Do you need Womble to avoid audio sync errors on 2hr+ replay files?

It seems like our heroes who have no audio sync issues are using womble as one of the steps. I was hoping to figure out the cause of the audio sync problem before investing in Womble.

2. One guess from someone who knows nothing: Are frames being dropped from the video that aren't compliant during the dvd compilation, resulting in an ever increasing audio lag as time goes by?
A 1 - Womble is mostly used to edit the mpeg files, the ability to cut on frames that aren't I frames allows you great freedom in editing. Most authoring packages only allow cuts on I frames. It makes sense, but womble will construct a custom GOP to match your cuts.

A 2 - Most dvd author packages do re-encode the mpeg stream, I find I only want to work with an authoring package that doesn't re-encode the video stream. That said, the bad frame pass through for me, and during playback causes some problems on some stand alone dvd players. Each player is different.

As far as software players, like the PC the bitrate shouldn't be a problem, the limit is a DVD spec, no MPEG spec.
post #76 of 396
One factor in this whole Audio Sync problem I remember Rich telling me about was sound cards. Can some sound cards, or more specifically some driver versions/families have an affect on the Audio Sync issue?

The other thing about codecs. Think about all the times you try to play a video or audio file in Windows Media Player. Many times it says "finding codec, downloading codec, etc." I am thinking it may not even be a good idea to use Media Player at all, as it is just a open invitation for those damn rogue codecs! I believe Womble will play the Replay Mpegs, right?

From what I have seen the only real programs needed are:

DVArchive (or equiv.)
Womble (or equiv.)
DVDLab (or equiv.)
Nero

Finally, this is for anyone out there who has successfully burned "in sync" DVDs:

Are you playing the DVD in a stand alone player, and fast forwarding to the very end (less than 5 minutes left), and actually watching someone talk? I am not trying to belabor this, but I have found that most 1 hours shows I have burned to DVD are in sync right up until the very end, and even then sometimes hard to tell. But if you watch carefully the audio is off by about .3-.5 seconds. It seems that medium quality works the best in general, as high quality can choke programs and somtimes is too big for a DVD, and low quality seems to have a lot more errors. Which brings up one more thing. I found DVDLab was able to fix some problems on a low quality video, and the result was much better than Wombles GOP fix. Maybe I am getting two different things confused, but the first couple of paragraphs are more important.


I am going to try the clean install, maybe even with Win2K, as Rich really likes it, and he seems to have the best results. I will post success or failure for others to follow or avoid.
post #77 of 396
Thread Starter 
Chris, I know I'm checking in stand alone player. And I'd say I know AV sync, I've been working with digital video for about 10 years now. I believe you can trust what Rich says too. I'm easily able to tell a sync offset of <.1 sec without even trying to notice.

From all the trouble Jim's been through I'm pretty sure he's using a good eye to check.

I also agree about the windows media player, I hate that it tries to "find" the correct codec, I don't care for that.

Womble can play the replay mpegs just fine.

One thing on your clean install, do it very carefully. Install one piece at a time and check. If you have a spare drive for the downloaded mpeg use that. Just in case, keep java from being installed at first. DVA won't work, but that's where the extra drive come in. =)

first pass would be install w2k
Next the codecs, rich likes the codecs that come with PowerDVD if you got that install that. Otherwise womble (I believe womble can decode mpeg with installing a mpeg codec, not sure about that, but someone mentioned it earlier)
If everything is fine, install your authoring package and check again.
If still good, edit your mpeg, check again and then author your dvd.
Check the output from your authoring, the fileset check the *.VOB files in the VIDEO_TS directory. Last numbered VOB is the last one, check the sync again...
Finally install burning software and burn.

Nero or burning software won't really play a factor unless your burning software is your authoring package.
post #78 of 396
Well I finally got a good edit!!!! I am using XP Pro, 2500xp, a7vn8x, 512. Here Is all i have had time for so far.
1 - Fresh install of XP pro,
2 - loaded motherboard drivers (network, Audio only)
3 - installed sp1 only,
4 - womble,
5 - java,
6 - dvarchive.

took my 2 hr movie and cut the ppv intro and ending out in womble. replayed and zoomed ahead to 1:45min and watched the lip sync.... I think i see slight sync on one frame then not another (switches people talking)... I think i have become possesed in the quest of perfection and getting wallie-eyed from watching too close.... lol

I will burn a dvd and test it on my set top later today, I dont think i will patch XP again.... This Hard disk will only be used for this purpose.

Thanks for all your help!
Boris
post #79 of 396
Chris: I do a "spot check" by looking at the audio near the beginning, the middle, and near the end. "Near the end" is typically where the out-of-sync was noticable because it was a "progressive" out-of-sync. I have tested it on two different PCs and one standalone player (my other standalone player has problems with DVD+RW's.)

And for those of you testing, here's a tip: it's a ROYAL PAIN to have to fast-forward to the end of a 2 hour movie. DVD Players (at least the ones I have) stretch the definition of "fast" in Fast Forward. So just stick a chapter mark somewhere near where you want to "test" enabling you to jump to that point quickly.

Boris: Good to hear you are having some success! Sounds like you are REALLY close!

Though this exercise has been frustrating, it has definatly been most educational.
post #80 of 396
Jeff D -

>>With the 5k mpegs the muxrates are appear to be incorrect.

Actually, these were 4xxx mpegs.
post #81 of 396
For Jeff,

I'm pretty sure Womble need NO codecs. They have their own engine. This is one of the reasons many find that the mpeg plays fine in Womble but not outside of it.

I've installed Womble to a laptop that had NO mullitimedia. No AV codecs execpt the limited ones provided by the MS system. And Womble still decoded all types of mpegs (both 1 and 2) just fine.

Hmmm, I wonder if you were just using Womble and something like DVD-Lab with NOTHING else installed, would that work okay?

And (If I may say so myself) I notice guys are either fixing their problems or getting close by doing a fresh install of the system. Sure looks like what I've BEEN preaching for a year now. (seems like ten heh heh) The problem is NOT (in most cases) the actual ReplayTV mpegs. Rather it's in some combination of "something" in the computer's environment that has trouble with them.

If you find the magic combination .. then not only will the RPTV mpegs edit and author fine, but all the other mpegs will be fine too.

I just finished putting together my new 3000 mhz computer. Long story there. Also a "good guy" from this forum has offered an FTP site where you can upload a sample of your broken ReplayTV Mpeg so I can get it and look at it. I'm working out the details now.

The point to remember, is that I believe MOST of these problems are not actually due to the mpegs themselves. BUT are due to the system. However there ARE some who have real honest to goodness problems with the mpegs. I should be able to tell you which you have. (ie if it's broken on MY system then you KNOW you have a problem ... heh heh)
post #82 of 396
Quote:
Originally posted by Rich A
I'm pretty sure Womble need NO codecs. They have their own engine. This is one of the reasons many find that the mpeg plays fine in Womble but not outside of it.
You are 100% correct on this. I installed Womble right after doing my new install of Windows XP Pro, and Womble worked perfectly. I tried to run the "gspot" app and it complained that there were no valid codecs for the media. After installing PowerDVD, "gspot" worked properly (and I presume other such "codec-dependent" apps would have worked properly too.)

Quote:
And (If I may say so myself) I notice guys are either fixing their problems or getting close by doing a fresh install of the system. Sure looks like what I've BEEN preaching for a year now. (seems like ten heh heh) The problem is NOT (in most cases) the actual ReplayTV mpegs. Rather it's in some combination of "something" in the computer's environment that has trouble with them.
Yup, I agree. It always seemed to make sense that the ReplayTV MPEG file MUST be problematic--"other" MPEG files played without problem, right? But it turns out that though Windows works and works well, the simple fact is that apps can be very intrusive when they install, and many are HORRIBLE at cleaning up after themselves when you uninstall them. Not until I did a fresh install did things actually work. In fact, it has med me VERY gun-shy about installing ANYTHING else on my "Video Partition".

All hail Rich!!! <gets on knees and bows in reverence>
post #83 of 396
Quote:
Originally posted by jbarr


<snip>

Not until I did a fresh install did things actually work. In fact, it has med me VERY gun-shy about installing ANYTHING else on my "Video Partition".

All hail Rich!!! <gets on knees and bows in reverence>
Aw shucks, garwsh and gee whiz .. Thanks ...

I think I can best explain it this way.

There are of course "standards" in place. When anyone (worth his salt) writes a program where there are standards to be met, said program will adhere to those standards. Ergo DVD authoring programs and editors are expecting to see mpegs that comply to those standards. Without standards, it would be video anarchy. :p And you'd have dozens of differently manufactured DVD-ROMs and DVD Players all "doing their own things".

The plain and simple of it is that the ReplayTV mpegs adhere to their own proprietary standard .. which happens to be physically close to DVD but really only what I call a basic "raw" mpeg. As such, it's very prone to working or not working depending on how forgiving the environment that you are using it in is. (I don't believe I said "using it in is") Apologies to my English teachers where-ever they are.

Now to find out what's wrong with my new computer system. I'm not impressed with the resultant jump in speed and power going from a 2000 mhz to a 3000 mhz mhz and doubling the bus speed and RAM as well. I still have some tweaking to do I guess. However the new RAID controller is exceeding my wildest imagination. Went from a 30 Mb/s sequential sustained write across 120 GB to a 90 Mb/s rate. Disk intensive stuff should fly now (like multiplexing and such)
post #84 of 396
This is what I have done that works:

select simple demux with TMPGEnc
de-mux with TMPGEnc
remux with TMPGEnc
Run the file through DVD2AVI just to check the file.
the audio delay file thats created shows no delays.
Burn with no sync errors.
post #85 of 396
Quote:
Originally posted by Rich A
... the new RAID controller is exceeding my wildest imagination. Went from a 30 Mb/s sequential sustained write across 120 GB to a 90 Mb/s rate. Disk intensive stuff should fly now (like multiplexing and such)
Just came back from reading all about RAID in the Storage Review article(s) about PC disk linked from some elsewhere here (?), and wonder what flavor RAID you chose. Guess outside of re-encoding speed (!) a RAID kit would speed up my video-editing more than a new CPU. P.S., Hyperthreaded in the new box? Or did you go AMD?
post #86 of 396
My new mobo came without an on-board RAID controller. (first one I've bought without one in the last three mobos) So while at the computer fair, I picked up a cheap off-brand board. Not Promise or one of the other more common plug in cards.

This was something from Silicon Image. The part number was SD-SIL680-RAID. It's fully ultra ATA 100 capable and supports all the RAID formats.

I think it was like 39.95 or something. I was surprised how "plug and play" it really was. It was the last thing I installed and really seems a lot faster than the old HighPoint and AMD on-board Raid controllers I had with the old mobos.

It looks like this company makes several different add-in controllers. This one had an added sticker on it that said, " Ultra ATA 133". Could be the difference as I believe my old board's raid was an Ultra ATA 66. (the four drives are 133. (40 gig Maxtor 7200)

I also keep another plug in hard drive for scratch work in this system. When ever I"m muxing or compiling a DVD or anything where I have to read from one file and output to another, I always split them up. I off load to the scratch drive. Then when editing it there I re-direct the writing of the output file to the raid. Always reading from one drive and writing to another. Demuxing a 2.7 GB mpeg file (with the old Raid) only took on average under one minute. Around 50 seconds or so. I'm anxious to see how much of an improvement this new controller will make.

If you don't have the capability of using two drives then just doing all your work on the RAID 0 drive will surely be a big boost in speed as well. I'm just always looking for that extra second or two .. <grin>
post #87 of 396
Rich,

Shame on you! Sleeping with the enemy...

http://www.siliconimage.com/press/03_27_03.asp
post #88 of 396
Quote:
Originally posted by worldofaaron
Rich,

Shame on you! Sleeping with the enemy...

http://www.siliconimage.com/press/03_27_03.asp
Well how about THAT? I didn't know it. heh heh. By the way, checking their web site. (thanks for the link) I found the RAID controller I have. It's the one they call the "Medley"

Guess I'll have to yank this rebel card outta my system now. :p
post #89 of 396
Thread Starter 
Looks like people are finally accepting what Rich has been saying for a while, it's the system configuration that's screwing things up. Great to hear there are new success stories from people who use to have problem.

Jim, how silly do you feel about the "magic" audio stretch that just happened to work? I'm still curious how that ever worked, especially since the number used for calculations was a bug in vdub mod. Odd.


So, now that we've are starting to get success stories, I'd like to tie this baby up. From what I've seen so far:
1) Fresh install of virgin system
2) Install limited applications which can include, womble, powerdvd, dvdlab? and an burning application like nero or stomp (personally nero dvd burns won't work on my dvd player, so I choose stomp)
3) Don't install anything else =)

Anyone care to post the direct show render paths from your working systems? If I have time I'll try to verify the moonlight decoder works, but for now moonlight and ligos are on my "don't install" list.
post #90 of 396
so ... Rich A, your setup is RAID 0? :confused:
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