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DIY Aluminum paint rolls well. . . but. . . - Page 2  

post #31 of 514
Maybe that's what is the problem, the thin consistency of the 100% silver paint, and that's why there was little tiny bubbles and blisters in it when I was trying very carefully to roll it out. These did disappear as it dried, but the rough texture of the paint was visible from the back of the room, so it's a no-go for me I'm afraid.

Mixing it up as Ddog suggested made it somewhere in consistency between a 'normal' white paint and the "thin-ness" of the silver. That painted quite easily.

For me, it's going to be plain bright white or Ddog's mixture...I shall post when I've played some more & made a decision...
post #32 of 514
What kind of white paint are you mixing the behr silver and the gloss with?
post #33 of 514
Thread Starter 
PJ,
What kind of roller are you using? I have found that a 5" foam roller works well with silver paint. You still get some bubbles with some of the paints I tried, but they are very small and popped within minutes, well before the paint dried. This gave a very even finish. I would assume the same principle would apply with the Behr paints.

Ddog,
What would you estimate the gain of your final screen to be?
post #34 of 514
edketz - Not sure of the exact name, but it's plain, no frills, cheap matt white latex based paint. I checked it had no extra colors in it, such as a hint or peach or something like that. I can post the name when I get home and check the tin! I just asked the guy at Home Depot for matt black & matt white latex paint, and told him it was for a home theater. He smiled and said you want a tin of this and a tin of that. Apparently they have been getting more and more people asking about paint schemes for movie rooms!

Assayer - I have a small 4 inch foam roller that I used for the test cards, and a 8 inch foam roller that I originally did the room and screen in, back in Jan/Feb time. That worked very well for plain matt black (ceiling and end wall) and plain matt white (screen), rest of room in matt dark purple.

You are exactly right about the bubbles. Very small and popped in minutes V's the paint taking about an hour to dry.

Don't get me wrong. The 100% silver finish was very good if you are going to use it for a candlestick or other decorations, but it gives a slightly rough textured finish, (which makes it look like a solid cast metal object...like this stuff is meant to!).

When I projected onto it, (the 100% silver) I could see the texture 'under-lying' the projected picture from the other side of the room. It made white scenes or very light colored scenes look like they were being projected onto a 'dirty' surface, (for want of a better description). It was damn reflective. :cool:

I should also mention that I saw no traces of the dreaded sparkles with any of the samples, even right up close standing next to the screen.

However, Ddog's mix seemed to remove all traces of this annoying texture and stop it bubbling when rolling it out, (I would assume at the cost of some reflectiveness, but hey, even if 100% silver reflects really really well, but looks like crap; would you want it as your screen?)

Here's an idea...I have a motorcycle jacket with a 3M 'Scotchlite' reflective strip on the back of it. This stuff is highly reflective and doesn't seem to have any sparkles...maybe a HUGE strip of this stuff would be a good screen?
post #35 of 514
I envy you guys having the paints to experiment with. May be because of what we mentioned, the glaze was sold out at Home Depot. I have to wait until next week and try my luck.

Question: For the white paint, do you guys just pick up a quart of paint WITHOUT asking the paint guys to mix it up because it is already white, or you have to tell the guy or gal the color selection?
post #36 of 514
Okay, here are some more experimentation results…

I was at a local art store and saw that they were having a sale on acrylic paint, so I said what the heck and bought some to try it out. I have a blackout screen with no treatment whatsoever. I thought about painting it with a Rustoleum Silver, but my test on a foam board was very uneven, so I gave up on that idea.

What I really wanted to do was to duplicate what Ddog was recommending, but since I don’t have a sprayer, so I tried to roll it on. I first bought a white base – Golden Acrylic’s Titanium White (1 qt) – the whitest white I could find. The store ran out of a silver pearlescent (dang!), but they had a tube of Golden Acrylic pearl with “fine†pearlescent, so I decided to give that a try ($22 total).

First, the acrylic paint was too thick, so I thinned the white with about 25% water. I laid two even coats with a small foam roller. After the paint dried, I checked it out. Colors were better, but blacks were worse and any ambient light had much greater effect on the screen than without the paint. Disappointing since I heard so many good things about Gesso on blackout screens and I figured this should give pretty much the same result.

I moved on to applying the pearl paint. I had some glaze sitting around, so I poured about a qt of glaze and mixed it with the entire tube of the pearl paint. I mixed it thoroughly and painted three coats of the paint. Like I said, I’ve tried the Rustoleum Silver before, and that gave me a really bright screen with fantastic blacks (but horrible finish), I was hoping for something comparable to that. The finish was fairly white (but at lower temperature than titanium white), but definitely had silver sheen to it. The pearlescent flakes were much finer than the Rustoleum Silver, it almost looked like some of the more expensive screens I have seen.

The result is not bad at all. The screen is significantly brighter (not as much as silver, but noticeable), the contrast has improved slightly, color is also sharper, and black level is at least what it was with the plain blackout cloth. Definite improvement from what I had before. Only negative is that during a bright scene, I can see some of roller marks. Overall I am happy with my $22 and sweat equity investment.

Now, I am trying to decide whether to lay down two or more coats of clear glaze. I know Ddog recommended those steps, but I am apprehensive about giving it more sheen that what I have now. I may try a coat and see what happens.
post #37 of 514
gameboy, Sounds promising. Thanks for posting.
post #38 of 514
First of all Thanks to everyone on the AVS Forum this has really been one Heck of a education on HDTV and projection!!

DDOG,
I tried your new formula this past weekend; Semi gloss pure white base and the top mix 50% Behr Style Silver, 40% glaze and 10% white. I applyed 3 coats base and 3 coats top. I calculated % in oz. to get the blend. I used a Wagner 210 Sprayer(85 watt) that I had, since HVLP cost $170 min. and I had it already.

My current screen is a Parkland Plastic(4:3 54x40.5) which is quite good but very susceptible to ambient light and my living room is somewhat hard to control light during daylight hours.

Now to my results, at first it seemed to be dark but after a couple of days watching it I find myself liking it more, colors are more vibrant and have depth to them. Blacks are realy black but overal brightness is down.
But ambient light rejection seems much better.

My PJ is a NEC LT240 published spec's are 1600 lumens, contrast 1300:1

Ok, a couple of questions: One more thing I used 3/8 wallboard as substrate

1. I do see some mild banding; I think this is spraying technique. I sprayed screen left to right starting off screen and ending off screen.
Can you elaborate more on this since I a beginner and this is your specialty.

2. How can I vary formula to get a bit brighter whites and a little less black.

You say that silver/glaze mix ends up translucent would adding some prescient to white and say 10% less silver do this??

Thanks
post #39 of 514
Gameboy: how big of a tube (in ounces) was the pearlescent paint that you mixed with the quart of glaze ? Did you compare your finished result side-by-side with an original piece of you blackout cloth or are you going from memory of what is used to look like ? Also- what is the name of the store where you purchased this "golden acrylic" brand paint ?
And one final question - what about the viewing cone angle of your finished screen - did it narrow it significantly ?
post #40 of 514
First of all, I'm glad to see all you guys are giving it a try and it sound like your having pirty good result.

Rew452,

To brighten(boost the gain) up the screen, add a little more White to the Silver,Glaze coat.

You might also try spraying at an angle(45degrees) and this will help even out the Metallic.

Assayer,
I feel that my screen has a gain of about 1.0 to 1.1 It's hard to say because it's not quit as bright as my Da-lite HCMW(1.1) But, it's a lot bigger!!

Ddog!!
post #41 of 514
Any considerations as to yellowing of the glaze over time? Given you are projecting light onto it that is. I don't expect that it would change much but it would have an effect and you wouldn't be wanting to go and resurface your screen every so often. If you are relying on translucency then any yellowing would be to layers below as well so you'd need to start with priming full white again for opaqueness.

Even a small amount of yellowing will bring the greens in LCD projectors to the fore, quite undesireable.

Can I also suggest that depending on the spray gun used, physical piston vs air and other factors that the spray angle on metalic flake (due to solvent drying speeds, droplet size etc) could give the screen a focus. If you were to determine the standard viewing spot and spray out from that point to the outward edges of the screen it may mean the lay of the flake would effectively act like a concave mirror.

It occurs to me that rolling, even under light pressure, will give direction to the flake, as will either laying the board down or upright. This due mainly to drying times and settling of the heavier flake in the base. Could be why some people report sparkles vs others not.

One thing you would not want to be doing is creating a screen with massive dispersion. Yes, wide viewing angle but...loss of light.

I've not tried spraying with metalics, but I have used plain paints and duco's on several occasions through the years with different spray outfits and know that there are simply so many factors. I would guess the factors are mulitplied with flakes. Oh for a heat tunnel and instant drying!
post #42 of 514
Sportster,

Unfortunately, I do not have any more scrap of the blackout cloth, so I cannoto do a side by side test. I do have some blank canvas so, I can test that out. I also still have my foamboard with Rustoleum Silver on it, so I can compare against that at least.

Most of my observation is from memory. The viewing angle really hasn't changed at all - which I expected as the surface is not perfectly smooth. There is still a bit of dispersion due to the fabric graininess.

I bought my paint from the Seattle Art Supply store at the Pike's Market, but I believe Golden brand is available from many art supply specialty stores. If Golden is not available, there are several other "high-end" acrylics brands that I have had success painting with in the past (I just never looked at "metallic paints" before).

Based on my previous painting experiences, yellowing is not much of a problem with glazes. Unless you are painting a surface that has direct UV exposure, it is unlikely that you will notice the yellowing at least for 5 to 10 years. I highly doubt that I will keep my screen for that long, so it is not a big concern for me.
post #43 of 514
DDOG
Thanks I will try your suggestions. One more question how does the pure white base really effect the picture on the screen??

Also would you suggest repainting the pure white base and then applying the glaze/silver mix top coat? Since I will reuse my original board.

Thanks
post #44 of 514
The White base keeps the whites White and the Metallic rejects light and aids the Blacks (shadow detail).

I would block sand or preferably if you have or can get a Jitter Bug (Black& Decker Mouse sander)and lightly sand the hole screen with 320 grit sand paper (be careful not to sand through) and repaint the Glaze,Metallic and White (just add more White this time).

Ddog!!
post #45 of 514
As promised I got home tonight and I brought out my foam board with Rustoleum Aluminum paint and did a side by side comparison with my blackout cloth with pearl pearlescent paint.

Wow, that aluminum paint is something. Definitely brighter, but not as much difference with unpainted blackout cloth. I actually prefer the pearl paint's brightness since there is a bit of hotspotting with the aluminum paint. Pearl paint's flakes are much finer and they are hardly noticeable, while aluminum flakes are huge in comparison and sparkle like crazy.

But aluminum just kicks butt in contrast and black level. The blacks look really black while pearl screen is just dark charcoal (I have a DLP and there is a quite of bit of light leakage).

Color looks very good in both.

Now I have a dilemma. I don't know if I should go and find a silver pearlescent paint and put another coat on it to see if it will give me better black and contrast.
post #46 of 514
I decided to follow Ddog's formula. Yesterday I spent almost 3 hours in different utilitystores looking for the right ingredients, without succes :( (I live in Holland). Could someone please explain to me (like I'm a 4 year old) what "glaze" is and under what other name this product might be sold. What it's normally used for ? If someone could be of some assistance I'd be very grateful !
post #47 of 514
gameboy - do what I do when I experiment - my screen is made out of a 1x4 wood frame - my screen is 96" x 54" - so I took an extra 1x4 and made a "tiny" screen - about 3' x 3'. then used extra blackout material stapled to the inside of the tiny or "test" screen - I then perform test paints on this test screen and set it up against (when dry) my regular screen to compare how much of a difference my samples make. You could try this whith your ingrediants with the silver instead of the pearl - to see if it makes a difference before you comit to rolling the whole screen. The best thing about doing it this way - is that it actually allows you to do a live comparison of the changes instead of trying to remember from memory what it used to look like before you rolled on your new paint. This eliminates the guess work of "does it or doesn't it look better than before "
post #48 of 514
tdusquet,
Glaze is used as a mixing clear to be mixed in with paint to dilute it for faux technique's.

Ddog!!
post #49 of 514
Quote:
Originally posted by ddog
tdusquet,
Glaze is used as a mixing clear to be mixed in with paint to dilute it for faux technique's.

Ddog!!
So bassically it's medium as you would use with oilbased paint ? I'm sorry but I still haven't the slightest idea where I could find that kind of stuff as it seems none of the local craftstores carry that kind of product or something similair. Is there any other name it could be sold under ?

Update:

Just spoke to someone here in Holland, and he thought "glaze" would be a generic varnish, it that correct ?
post #50 of 514
tbusquet,

Let me see if I can help you out (the couple of art courses in college are finally paying off)...

Paint is nothing more then paint pigments (usually powder) mixed with some sort of medium so that you can make it adhere to a surface.

Oil paint is pigment mixed with linseed oil. Acrylic is pigment mixed with acrylic. Watercolor is... well, you get the idea.

Glaze is really nothing more than a bucket of mixing medium (so you can thin the paint). Accordingly, if you want to add glaze to oil paint, you should use glaze made of oil. If you wan to add glaze to acrylic, you should acrylic based glaze.

First determine what your paint is made of. If it is latex-based, you will be able to get glaze for latex paint in most home improvement stores. Just ask for it at the paint department. If you are using acrylic paint, you probably should go to a local art supply store. Just look for a "mixing medium".

You can also use water for acrylic and latex paints to thin it out. Just remember that it will dry quicker so you need to work fast.

I hope that helps...
post #51 of 514
Hey, thanx gameboy I don't think that I could of said that any better!!

Ddog!!
post #52 of 514
Quote:
Originally posted by gameboy
tbusquet,

Let me see if I can help you out (the couple of art courses in college are finally paying off)...

Paint is nothing more then paint pigments (usually powder) mixed with some sort of medium so that you can make it adhere to a surface.

Oil paint is pigment mixed with linseed oil. Acrylic is pigment mixed with acrylic. Watercolor is... well, you get the idea.

Glaze is really nothing more than a bucket of mixing medium (so you can thin the paint). Accordingly, if you want to add glaze to oil paint, you should use glaze made of oil. If you wan to add glaze to acrylic, you should acrylic based glaze.

First determine what your paint is made of. If it is latex-based, you will be able to get glaze for latex paint in most home improvement stores. Just ask for it at the paint department. If you are using acrylic paint, you probably should go to a local art supply store. Just look for a "mixing medium".

You can also use water for acrylic and latex paints to thin it out. Just remember that it will dry quicker so you need to work fast.

I hope that helps...
Thanks for your explaination ! So if I understand correctly, a glaze is just a "paint" without any pigment, thus making it transparent. In other words, if you'd have a terpentine based aluminum paint some terpentine would yield the same result as the glaze. The advantage of the glaze being that I shouldn't thin the paint so much that it wouldn't be suitable for application anymore. Does my assumption sound correct to you ?

Or another way of looking at it would be, glaze is really the base of the paint, when mixed with pigments (to give it color) it becomes the colored paint we are all familiar with. So mixing glaze without pigment with a ready mixed colorpaint would decrease the density of the color, thus making it more transparent... Correct ?
post #53 of 514
Correct!
post #54 of 514
Quote:
Originally posted by ddog
Correct!
Thanks ! I really needed that confimation ;) Now I feel more secure to go shopping for some more paint tonight :D
post #55 of 514
Followup on Ddog's new formula:
1st let me say I had some techical difficulties in my first post were I said it was a little dark. My lamp was near end of life and upon getting new one it seems it also had a flaw; a square of foil about .5x.5 floating around inside.

Anyway putting in the new lamp made all the difference!!
This is one heck of a good screen for DIY on a buget. While I can't say it is the same as a Siverstar is sure comes close for those of us that may not have $1k to spend on the real thing!!

Colors are vibrant, with depth, it has excelent ambient light rejection and very good brightness. I really think Ddog deserves a "that aboy" for sharing this with us.

As said before use a paint sprayer in my first attempt I used a Wagner 210
results were pretty good but will do again this weekend and am going to use a Wide Shot version since it has a horizonal and vertical spray pattern which I think will be much better.

The mix I used is as follows

Base Coat
3 layers of Pure White

For 16 oz. of top coat:

8 oz. of Style Silver Metalic
6.4 oz. of Faux Glaze
1.6 oz. of Pure White


3 coats

I will add 1 oz. more of Pure White on my next version

Again thanks Ddog for sharing!

I post my results latter.
post #56 of 514
Rew452,

Paint mix sounds great (I 2nd the mention of kudos to Ddog!), and I'd like to try it myself sometime, but I need to know the substrate or base that you're spraying this paint onto.

I have been looking at dense-weave 100% polyester cloth, vinyl (like the material you use for shower curtains, gator board, and wall paneling (like the Parkland plastics and the dense particle wood board), but haven't seen much talk in here as to the optimal base surfaces to paint onto for the best results.

Well, any help would be nice. ;2)

that's my 3 yen. ;2)

--- DanekJovax
post #57 of 514
rew - what is your technique for spraying ? Are you laying your screen flat - like on saw horses, or are you standing the screen up -like against a wall when spraying ? Also I am wondering if anyone knows if spraying these ingrediants makes a difference in appearance over using a foam roller for application ?
post #58 of 514
Well Guys I went real basic, good old 3/8 s plasterboard cheap and not too heavy; my screen is only 67" diag. (54x40.5)

I did forget to mention thin paint by about 30% about 5 oz. I think.

I sprayed it standing upright at a slight angle. (leaded against the lawnmower handle)

Hope that helps.

By the way Blacks are realy black.

I also should mention the PJ is a NEC LT240 DLP at about 1600 lumens and 1300:1 contrast ratio.
post #59 of 514
<GRIPE>
*sigh* I need a pickup truck... I am not going to pay 100% of the value of the paneling material (or more) to have it delivered to my house. Until then, or whenever I can coax a truck-owning friend to helping me pick up something that's bigger than my little dinky-doo car, I'm sticking with rollable/foldable materials stretched on a frame.
</GRIPE>

Now just how long does it take for those wrinkles to come out of shower curtain vinyl? ;2)

that's my 3 yen.

--- DanekJovax
post #60 of 514
Hey Thanks for the "That aboy" Rew452, I'm really glad to see that it's working out good for you. I told ya that it was one heck of a screen!

DanekJovax,
I made my screen with the use of Black-Out cloth and it works very good!

Ddog!!
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