New York, NY - OTA - Page 481

Interesting thought and the 91xg might well improve my reception, but I think my problems are more geographically related. Plus I only go to MY9 for Yankee games.

If I had access to a 91xg for experimental purposes, I'd give it a try.

I also had the thought that perhaps a pre-amp might help out.

But, again, I think geography might be my biggest problem. If ABC hasn't been doing maintenance work at 2 AM Monday mornings, then there must be some geographic (or atmospheric?) reason for the drastic drop in my ch 7 reception. Otherwise, why would I go from a solid 91 - 93% for a half hour, then completely lose reception for a half hour?

I have to go below 84% to lose reception completely. I've monitored the situation on at least one occasion and when I lost reception, it was essentially zero with the occasional bump up to something well below 84%.

I don't know that any antenna would resolve that kind of problem.

So I'm thinking it's either geographic, atmospheric (?) or, as you and others have suggested, interference by other broadcasting signals, etc.

But if you look at that TV Fool coverage map that I linked previously (it's on the prior page at the moment) you can see that I'm in a bad spot for NYC reception, generally speaking.

And, as you yourself once said, MY9 is one of the weaker NYC stations. So when you take those two factors into account, it's basically always going to be touch and go for me with MY9 reception.

Not sure what your problem is but if I get signal in the 80% range then I am locked on the station really well. If you are bouncing all over the place and 81% is not locked on then your problem is some interference and not the transmission. My humble opinion. Not sure what options you have short of moving your antenna or living somewhere else.

You can't compare one tuner to another that way. Your 80% might equal my 92%. I'm using a VOOM box (retired VOOM Satellite box) but I also have a Samsung SIR-TS360 receiver. While the VOOM needs 80% just to lock a station in and 85% for solid "weather fade" reception (it states both such facts itself in the meter window), the TS360 gets strong reception at 45%.

I wonder where in Randolf you are because if you look at the TV Fool coverage map I referred to you'll see that Randolf is pretty much all in the purple and blue "weak" area for MY9.

I guess you're just a lucky fellow with all that solid MY9 reception.

P.S.: How's your ch. 5-1 and 9-2 reception? I can't even lock them in, so they are below 80% on my VOOM box. They are @ RF 44 whereas 9-1 and 5-2 are RF 38

you're also having probs with abc7? abc7 has the strongest signal of all the stations in nyc


And, as you yourself once said, MY9 is one of the weaker NYC stations. So when you take those two factors into account, it's basically always going to be touch and go for me with MY9 reception.

get yourself an fm trap man

I have 3 antennas. My CM4228 is at the top of the roof about 35' off the ground. Next I have I home built GH6 about 15' below that and then my latest GH6 even lower about 10' below that.

All 3 pick up 9.1 in the mid 80's to low 90's. However my high up CM4228 and my very low GH6 are the only ones that can pick up 5.1. The CM gets it in the 90 range and the lowest antenna gets it in the mid 80s. So I see antenna location is a factor in what you can pick up. When I was locating my 2 home builts I found that just moving them 5' up or down would impact reception on various channels till I found a sweet spot where the channels that I cared about were coming in the best.

Keep working on that quote thing -- you'll get it eventually. Looks like you're almost there. It appears that when you did your editing, you edited out the "QUOTE=T-Max;20817777" at the beginning and/or the "/QUOTE" at the end.

Ya need both of those in there. Anything else can go.

Also note that I did not include the enclosing brackets (the "[]") that go around both of what I put in quotation marks above. Ya need those too. But if I had included them, it would have come out looking like an actual quote, so I had to leave them out in order to make the point.

You might want to fiddle around with it along with some liberal use of the preview button.

Other than that omission, you done good -- you did indeed edit out everything but the relevant portions of my post to which you were responding, which is a good thing (IMHO).

I'm not so sure our Moderator is all that keen on my idea of editing quotes but I guess it's seen as okay as long as we avoid "editing a quoted comment to your own benefit." I take that to mean that you don't want to edit quotes in a misleading or self-serving manner.

My thinking on editing is that if you edit out extraneous stuff (stuff you're not replying to), it makes for a more concise board dynamic (for lack of a better way of expressing it). It also focuses attention on what it is in the poster's post that you're addressing. And if a reader wants to read the ENTIRE quote, there's the little arrow-icon button to click which brings up the quoted post in its entirety.

I assume that's what that button is for. Seems like a real "duh!" to me.

Okay, I've beaten that horse pretty much to death, so enuff already with that. Except to say that I WAS thinking of just PM-ing my comments to you, but then I thought better of it and decided to leave them in this post because you are not the Lone Ranger on this issue. Seems others (as Ken pointed out) also aren't all that proficient with the quote function.

So, moving on...

I probably should remind readers that I don't actually watch NYC tv as a general proposition. Although I'm closer to NYC than Philly, I have excellent line of sight to Philly and get outstanding reception of both Philly and Allentown stations.

Those are my primary sources for OTA tv. So it's not like I'm watching NYC OTA all the time, and thus have a lot of feedback on reception problems on a daily basis, etc.

I only go to NYC stations for Yankee games and for my nightly recording sessions of Da Vinci's Inquest on ch 7.

And I do note that ch 7 is indeed my strongest NYC station. That's what makes me so crazy when I lose it, as I did this week and also 2 weeks prior. Last week's recording was fine. So that's why I'm thinking there was some problem (or maintenance) happening with ABC and/or the ESB.

But, again, it could be my particular problem entirely. Maybe geographic or maybe interference, as you seem to think.

I can envision some potential rain fade problems with tonight's Da Vinci recording.

BTW, this is probably a good time to make this point:

I recall all the hubbub on the Philly OTA board around transition time (and prior) about ch 6 sticking with RF 6 rather than going to UHF. Everybody was talking doom and gloom about how reception was going to be terrible at that low RF, yada yada yada.

But as it turns out, both ch7 in NYC and ch 6 in Philly are VERY strong stations, at least for me. So it looks to me like the whole thing was a tempest in a teapot.

Maybe MY9 out to try RF 9 ..

At least you're not a phillies phan, I despise all their teams, especially the phills this coming from a ny mets fan

Of course, WABC had to boost from 11 to 27 kW and WPVI from 7 to 30 (and soon to 37) kW to make it even resemble something that works. Roof antennas are generally okay for many VHF stations, it's indoor antennas that are the problem. Last time I was in the area (near Edison), I barely decoded WABC and WNJB and didn't decode WPIX or WNET at all, and that was with my very large VHF bowtie, not one of the crappy indoor antennas many people have. Meanwhile, the UHFs were easy catches.


From what I've been told, WWOR would have strongly considered keeping 9 except for WBPH and WEDN and WNJB preventing it. Of course, on the contrary, had FOX known then that they'd have Mobile DTV in the future to cotend with, I suspect they'd have kept as many of their stations on UHF as possible, including a number of the ones that are currently sitting on VHF.

- Trip

My general reception of MY9 is 84% on my VOOM box (which is the only one I use for NYC reception). And when I have a pretty solid 84%, it will usually jump up to 85% and even stay there for at least a bit.

What that means for me is this: A solid 85% means solid reception with no issues. A solid 84% means essentially solid reception as well (as long as it doesn't drop below 84%, which it generally does from time to time, giving me the occasional pixelation, frozen picture, interruption, yada yada, but at a level that I can live with).

Anything below 84% is either way too much breakup or loss of signal entirely. Anything greater than 85% is just plain solid reception.

So you can see that good reception for me is in a pretty narrow range around 84%, and that I basically need 84% (pretty solid) or above, or I just get virtually nothing.

If I had your "mid 80's to low 90's," I'd have solid reception too (as long as your "mid 80's" is solid 84 or above).

Thus it looks like we have just about the same reception (generally speaking), with yours a bit better than mine and that "bit better" making all the difference in the world (as it would for me as well).

And another factore being that you apparently don't have the rather extreme dropouts that I have (for the as yet unexplained reason(s)).

I suspect that you probably have better line of sight than I have as well. I'm just too darn close to the base of this ridge that blocks my NYC line of sight.

I think I'd be better off being a little farther from NYC because then I'd also be a little farther from the base of the ridge and maybe some more of the signal would make it my way.

BTW, my antenna is also on my roof and my roof is pretty high. The peak of my roof (which is where the antenna is) is 37 feet off the ground. The antenna sits atop a pole that's at least 10 ft above the roof. So it's pretty high up.

Yea, I know there's that. But frankly, what do I care if they have to incur the expense of more power as long as I get good TV? And the indoor antenna issue does not confront me either, so what do I care about that?

As always, I'm only looking out for myself over here.


Funny you should mention that. WBPH is a VERY strong station for me. I forget the actual number but it's a whopping one -- maybe like 99% or so. It wasn't there at transition time or for quite some time thereafter, but once it did show up, it came in big time for me.

BTW, I probably meant to say that maybe MY9 ought to try RF 9.

I am at a disadvantage for LOS as I mentioned a number of times on this forum. My house is halfway up a hill and my highest antenna just barely peaks over the top which is in the direction of the ESB. If I was one or more houses further up the hill I would get much better reception!

WBPH boosted power a while back from 3.2 kW on a very directional antenna (aimed at Philly) up to 80.6 kW on a significantly less directional antenna that puts full power in your direction. And they want to boost again to 120 kW.

- Trip

Any thoughts on my MY9 problem? According to TV Fool it's currently at 355.000 kW. So it's at RF 38 @ 355.000 kW. Meanwhile, WCBS ch. 2.1 is at RF 33 @ 284.000 kW -- and it's also rated a couple of places below MY9 on the TV Fool list for me -- yet I get WCBS much better than MY9.

Also, WNBC (RF 28 / 200.200 kW) is rated 5 places below MY9 on the list, and I also get THAT stronger than MY9.

Is it just the location of their respective antennas? I know MY9 is on the ESB. Not sure where the others are.

If it was FM (or other) interference, wouldn't that also affect 2.1 and 4.1?

If TVFool has WWOR at 355 kW, then TVFool is wrong, because WWOR is at 170 kW. The 355 kW permit specifies an antenna on the Empire State Building that has not yet been installed.

To the best of my knowledge, 2, 4, and 9 are coming off a single antenna on ESB (as are 7, 11, and 13). WWOR is at 170 kW, WNBC at 200.2 kW, and WCBS at either 335 kW or 426 kW.

Interference can come in almost any configuration. I had interference locally one time that was from a dying amplifier that crushed my local digitals on 3 and 18, interfered with several others, and bypassed some stations completely. This was when there were still analogs; I remember one station the audio was gone but the video was perfect.

Using an FM trap would likely help your VHFs, but would only help UHFs in the presence of severe interference from FM. If you're really close to one or more FMs, I would begin to wonder about intermod being a problem. I worked for WDBJ and I remember that in analog it was possible to see/hear WDBJ and other FM and TV broadcasters when in the transmitter building on various channels in the band. I remember WDBJ-7 analog being watchable on channel 45. Unless you're using your roof antenna for listening to FM radio, I can't see an FM trap hurting anything.

As for what's causing your issues, it could be anything, HOWEVER, how far are you from WNJB? I looked up where Bridgewater NJ is. Is it possible that you are being overloaded by WNJB? They did increase power from 17 kW up to 40.82 kW a while back.

- Trip

Yes the stations should spend tens of thousands more dollars so u can get better signal. That would have a good impact on environment and the power grid.Have u bothered to try any of the suggestions users here have suggested? Different antenna, higher elevation,fm trap,preamp??? It's easier for u to do that than expect stations to boost power or move frequencies.

Yes, TV Fool does have WWOR at 355 kW.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...ALLTV%26n%3d25

Although it does state it as "Maximum ERP." So maybe they're figuring it as of after the construction permit kicks in?

Because I did consult the FCC page on WWOR and saw that construction permit -

http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WWOR-TV

It's just that I can never figure out how to read the FCC pages as to what's in place now vs. what's gonna be in place someday (maybe). But I like what you said because it sounds like my MY9 reception should improve dramatically once they get that antenna in place and powered up.

Thanks for the info on the location of the antennas for those NYC stations. Also on your feeling as to FM interference. I doubt that has any impact on my reception although I did used to get significant analog TV interference years ago (and not on my current antenna or anything like it) which I thought was due to some local ham radio operator (tho' I didn't know of any specifically) or something like that. It would come and go randomly.

But that was years ago and it went away years ago and I haven't see it in many years -- even when I was still analog with an antenna similar to the one I have now (only it was inside the attic).

I'm pretty close to WNJB but if I wuz getting interference from them wouldn't that be a constant thing? As I've said, sometimes my MY9 reception is good and then for some unexplained reason it goes completely flukey.

I can see that being due to a ham operator who fires up only now and then, but it doesn't seem that any FM or other TV station would have that kind of effect.

And since MY9 is UHF, it doesn't sound like you feel that an FM trap would help me with my MY9 reception issues.

Thanks again for your feedback.

You make a strong case for that sarcasm font I keep hearing about.


No. Nor do I plan to. I'd rather have the stations spend tens of thousands more dollars increasing power or move frequencies so that I can get better signal.

That works for me.


See above.

hey t-max if you want to improve your tv signal i got some good used preamps 4 sale

So you're saying that WWOR is now operating with this setup (from the FCC page):

Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 170. kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 397. meters HAAT

and that they will be going to this:

Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 355. kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 439. meters HAAT

Have I got that right? Like I said, I'm not very good at figuring out that FCC information.

Because if that's true then my reception of MY9 should dramatically improve once they get the new setup in place. They are more than doubling the power AND raising the antenna height.

I might just email them and ask when they feel that will become operational.

One would think so, but I'm just out of ideas otherwise. Is it more common at night than during the day? It could be atmospheric, the signal could be intensifying enough at night to overload you. I'm not sure I buy that reasoning either.

The phrase "grasping at straws" comes to mind. This sort of thing is something I'd want to see on my spectrum analyzer to make any kind of definitive statement.


Anything is possible, certainly, but I find it to be unlikely.


Yes. If it makes your life easier, I have all of this information on RabbitEars in what should be a more usable format.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.ph...&callsign=wwor

Click on "Technical Data and Screencaps" and you will see the entry listed at the top is the licensed facility. (DT-PL stands for Digital Television - Pending License. Most of the text pops up little explanatory notes if you hover over it.)


At this point, it's difficult to know when or if it will happen. There's finally talk again about maybe moving the broadcasters back over to 1WTC, and if that happens, they may not bother building the top-mounted ESB facility. I haven't heard anything about any new construction on the ESB in the near future, so you might be in for a bit of a wait on any kind of improvement.

- Trip

T max says he's looking for signal to improve without paying any money so I dont think he will want to buy any.

As I say, I don't really watch NYC tv but for special circumstances. So I don't really know how it is during the day or evening generally speaking.

I also don't believe I'm being overloaded, but I do suspect atmospheric factors. Don't these signals sometimes bounce of the troposphere (or whatever)? I wouldn't be surprised if I'm getting some reflected signal coming over the ridge and that it could be affected by atmospheric conditions.


Just for example, right now (~10pm) I'm getting the following readings:

7 - solid 90-91%
11 - solid 86%
13 - solid 85%
4 - solid 85% (that's RF 28, so it's UHF just like MY9's RF 38)
MY9 - some 83% and a lotta flat-out zero reading. It's unwatchable. All the others are very watchable.

Remember that signal strength or signal quality readings are virtually impossible to compare from different receivers.

An architectural landmark for New York City, 1 World Trade Center (WTC) will soar a symbolic 1,776 feet skyward to become America's tallest building. Designed by David M. Childs of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, the 2.6-million-square-foot building will include office space, an observation deck, world-class restaurants, and broadcast and antennae facilities.

http://www.wtc.com/about/freedom-tower

I like the sound of that!

I hate to break 2 u but tv antenna arrays might stay esb. thats what i been hearing no money

I previewed my recording of Da Vinci @ 1:35 - 2:35 this morning (that last quote was from last night @ 10 pm) and it was fine. Apparently there were no reception issues or loss of signal although I haven't watched the entire thing -- just a bit of each chapter which are @ 5 min intervals. Also, I had ch 7 on for 2 hours prior to recording and didn't have any issues at all during that time. So I'm thinking the problems I saw in prior weeks had to be with ABC or the ESB, unless there was some sort of wacky atmospheric thing which just happened to occur at just about 2 AM on both nights.

Also, I checked my reception numbers again this morning and they were about the same as above except that they were a bit higher, including MY9 which appeared to be a solid (or pretty solid) 84%.


Well, since MY9 has a construction permit for increased power and height, and a new antenna, they'll either go ahead with that or they will move to 1WTC.

Either way, my reception should improve significantly.

i could be mistaken but di vinci is also on retrotv ? i prefer starsky hutch old skool do you receive wfmz ch69 from allentown, they show metv which i'm hoping we get it soon it so much better than the other old skool stations I use receive that station back in analog days also wlvt ch39 lehigh valley pbs.

It is indeed listed on Zap2it as being on my RTV station out of Allentown / Bethlehem (WFMZ 69.4) but I don't think it's actually been on yet. It's listed for Mondays @ midnight so I'll check it out tonight. I believe the Zap2it listing just started 3 or 4 weeks ago and I know it wasn't on the first week I checked (and maybe also the next). It's also listed on WFMZ's own schedule:

http://www.wfmz.com/tvlistings/index.html

And RTV's site also notes that they are broadcasting it.

None of those TV listing sites state what episode is being broadcast on RTV, whereas Zap2it always gives the episode name and description for the ABC broadcast. So if I ever see an actual episode name given for the RTV broadcast, I'll have a little more confidence that it's actually going to be on. Other than that, I'll believe it when I see it.

If you're looking over a ridge, it's possible that you're getting multipath from that. Since multipath can vary with frequency, this would make sense. And I've seen multipath vary with time of day, including due to changing strengths due to tropospheric ducting.


There's the third option that you're forgetting, and that's that they could leave it right where it is. If the permit lapses, the current license remains valid.

With the uncertainty about 1WTC, I wouldn't be surprised to see this sort of thing take years, not months, to be finalized.

- Trip

Trip in VA,

Any news on when CBS is coming out with that new sub? I read 3rd quarter