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New York, NY - OTA - Page 496

post #14851 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycdigital09 View Post

len, i feel for you. how bout just having one antenna on roof instead of 3, this way there is less of a chance of interference, you don't know need 3 antennas to capture all the stations do you? what about indoor antenna or attic mount? presently i have a uhf yagi antenna indoors aimed at a window i can still get connecticut around 50 miles from me, it surprise me. i see that your a hilly area, from the contour maps i see that your elevation is around 400 feet, (i wish i was up that high) maybe you need a more directional antenna, don't lose hope. ota is a challenge, but you will find a way.

Here's my story. Bought a CM4228 antenna and CM 7777 preamp and had it professionally installed on the chimney enclosure high up. Works great but at certain times of the year lost CBS 2.1. So I decided to fool around building a second antenna. After several test builds I went with the grey-hoverman design and installed it on the chimney enclosure lower down (I don't deal with heights very well) and found out that antenna never lost CBS 2.1 when the CM4228 did. For a fun project and since I still had some leftover material I built a second grey-hoverman and mounted that even lower, and that antenna performs better on some stations (NBC 4.1 and CBS 2.1) than the other antennas. Since I have 3 TVS and 2 PAL DVRS I spread the signal around so that I can get good recordings and watch TV wherever I want with reasonably good signal. All was good until the LED lighting issue showed up. As to the antenna's interacting or interfering with each other I was careful to take readings before and after the antennas were installed looking for any impact they had on each other and I never found any impact. They seem to be far enough from each other to not have an impact. Forgot to mention all of the antennas have CM7777 preamps.
post #14852 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

They seem to be far enough from each other to not have an impact. Forgot to mention all of the antennas have CM7777 preamps.

Len, i meant interfering with led lights not from each antenna, if you use just 1 antenna maybe you can minimize the effects of led lights, have you ever tried indoor antenna from your location? ideal would be for you to move your outdoor antennas away from effect of led lights. say back of the house or attic, is the led lights in your line of sight to esb ?
try googling your intefering problem i read articles years back when analog tv signal was around there were ways to get around this same problem your having. bon giorno
post #14853 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycdigital09 View Post

Len, i meant interfering with led lights not from each antenna, if you use just 1 antenna maybe you can minimize the effects of led lights, have you ever tried indoor antenna from your location? ideal would be for you to move your outdoor antennas away from effect of led lights. say back of the house or attic, is the led lights in your line of sight to esb ?
try googling your intefering problem i read articles years back when analog tv signal was around there were ways to get around this same problem your having. bon giorno

Impact all 3 antennas with the highest antenna (CM4228) impacted the least. The lights are in almost the direct path of the antenna aim to the ESB. No.... I have no other options for mounting antennas outside. Thanks for asking anyway.
post #14854 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by keyboard21 View Post


Thanks

"CBS owned-and-operated station in New York City, has announced plans to launch a digital subchannel before the end of the year"

Hard to believe them when they said 3rd quarter of this year

I can't wait for this channel to launch!...so that the complaints of how the channel sucks can begin
post #14855 of 17106
I cant get WPIX channel 11.1 in manhattan with either my HDTV antennas....is the signal from PIX really that weak?
post #14856 of 17106
I'm not sure where some people making comments in this topic get their ideas from.

Here is a recent news item from The New York Post.com:

Quote:


WCBS tries to bridge news and information-gathering power of local channels and sports media

BY RICHARD HUFF
DAILY NEWS TV EDITOR
Tuesday, October 18, 2011

WCBS/CH. 2 is working on final details for a digital channel to launch before the year's end that will rival WNBC/Ch. 4's Nonstop and the local cable news channels.

CBS New York Plus will combine the news- and information-gathering power of CBS' locally owned operations such as Ch. 2, NewsRadio 880 AM, 1010 WINS and sports radio WFAN 660 AM.

CBS TV Stations president Peter Dunn, also general manager of Ch. 2, says the new channel will be programmed in a "wheel" format with hourly updates.

"We have all of this content," says Dunn. "It really is a reflection of our CBS local media."

Word of the new channel first surfaced over the summer in Broadcasting & Cable magazine. The concept was pitched as a way to leverage the multimedia reach of CBS properties and give advertisers a way to buy all of them. Similar channels are to be rolled out eventually in other markets where CBS owns stations.

"This helps us to compete in a new business area," Dunn says.

It gives viewers yet another option locally for news and information. It also can provide another outlet for Ch. 2 during times of big breaking news.

Before that happens, though, Ch. 2 will unveil a new studio Thursday at noon.

The facility features banks of video monitors and multiple spots for anchors and correspondents to deliver news.

"We felt it was time for a new set, because of all the various changes in technology as well as [the need for] a fresh look. The old set was installed 10 years ago and it was time," Dunn says.

Talk about the new set began in January; design plans were approved in July.

"The lighting actually makes me look like I'm back in my 40s," weathercaster John Elliott joked on yesterday's early newscast. Both he and Rob Morrison raved about the high-tech facility.

During the past few weeks, newscasts have emanated from a small room in Ch. 2's W. 57th St. studios.

Ch. 2's studio is the second to debut in recent weeks. WABC/ Ch. 7's moved into a window-front studio on W. 66th St. three weeks ago. (Ch. 2, at one point, delivered some reports from a window-front facility in the GM building that was home to "The Early Show," before moving back to W. 57th.)

WPIX/Ch. 11 also is expected to reveal a new studio, trimmed with pastel greens and blues, on Oct. 28. And Ch. 4 has a new studio in the works, too.

Dunn said the new set isn't being launched just to get ratings.

"Our viewers expect more from the stations in this market," he says. It's still up to anchors, reporters, video and graphics staff, he adds, to work together and keep people watching night after night.
post #14857 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rieper View Post

I cant get WPIX channel 11.1 in manhattan with either my HDTV antennas....is the signal from PIX really that weak?

pix is one of the strongest signals put out by ota channel. i bet you;re using one of the panel type antennas. you should be using a rabbitear antenna type with the extended dipoles. the dipoles should be no more than to 15-17 inches on each side and have it in T mode not strait up and down. what happens with reception in manhattan is you're in a heavy multipath combat zone. if you got a amplifier with your antenna shut it off or you will have signal overload and all your channels will come and go.
post #14858 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post


I don't know much, but I do know that it's unrelated to Mobile DTV.

- Trip

In relation to M-DTV....

To comply with Mobile Content Venture membership rules, a number of local stations broadcasting M-DTV are adding Nagra encryption.

Excerpted from TV Technology, by Doug Lung

Quote:


Early mobile DTV adopters, however, should be aware that, according to the MCV press release, “In order to receive the [MCV] mobile video service, consumers will need a device capable of receiving a specific type of mobile video broadcast, encrypted with conditional access.” While the service will be free, viewers will need to register and receive a key to decrypt the signal. Since the conditional access will be software-based using the ATSC A/153 standard, laptop or Netbook devices may be able to be upgraded to receive the broadcasts. However, it’s likely that non-connected devices like the LG DVD player with ATSC MH capability, the in-car receivers, and the recently announced MyGoTV portable will not be able to decode the encrypted signals. MCV is working with manufacturers to make sure devices will be available to receive the encrypted mobile broadcasts.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/109842

Quote:


Mobile Content Venture (MCV) is a joint-venture comprising 12 major broadcast groups, including Belo Corp., Cox Media Group, E.W. Scripps Co., Gannett Broadcasting, Hearst Television Inc., Media General Inc., Meredith Corp., Post-Newsweek Stations Inc. and Raycom Media, all of which are part of the standalone entity known as Pearl Mobile DTV, LLC, as well as Fox, ION Television, and NBC.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/112162

Don't ask me how I know they are using Nagra, but I know.
post #14859 of 17106
Ran the test today and verified that the LED lights are emitting the noise as seen by interference on my FM radio when the lights were on. The noise disappears when the lights are off.

I'm still waiting for Malibu Lighting to respond to my note on the issue. Hell might freeze over before I hear from them but I will keep after them and include the FCC in the discussion.
post #14860 of 17106
Why not call Milibu instead of waiting for a response to your note?

Here's the Customer Service contact, possibly there's a technician available with whom you could speak.

Phone
(888) 295-7348
post #14861 of 17106
Hey Len,
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

Ran the test today and verified that the LED lights are emitting the noise as seen by interference on my FM radio when the lights were on. The noise disappears when the lights are off.

I'm still waiting for Malibu Lighting to respond to my note on the issue. Hell might freeze over before I hear from them but I will keep after them and include the FCC in the discussion.

Did you use a portable FM radio and walk nearby these lights? If so, did you determine the interference to be higher at any particular spot or was it uniform? Essentially, by using the radio like a Geiger Counter, you could potentially isolate the exact trouble spot.

SnellKrell is absolutely correct. Some companies are not very privy to e-mail and a traditional phone call is the best way to communicate. I would definitely call them Monday and if you don't get a satisfactory answer, ask to speak to a manager.
post #14862 of 17106
How about contacting the "Consumer Reporter" at local newsroom of one of the TV Stations these LED lights are causing your reception blackout? Maybe a high profile news story could shame someone into action to resolve the willful interference.
post #14863 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post

Hey Len,

Did you use a portable FM radio and walk nearby these lights? If so, did you determine the interference to be higher at any particular spot or was it uniform? Essentially, by using the radio like a Geiger Counter, you could potentially isolate the exact trouble spot.

I'm with Giacomo on this. If the problem can be isolated to just one fixture, then that fixture is probably faulty and should be replaced.
post #14864 of 17106
Unnecessary comments deleted.
post #14865 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnellKrell View Post

Why not call Milibu instead of waiting for a response to your note?

Here's the Customer Service contact, possibly there's a technician available with whom you could speak.

Phone
(888) 295-7348

Thanks! I just thought documenting the problem was the first step. Yes a phone call would be another approach and I will do that but that does not guarantee being able to talk to someone and getting a response that is helpful.
post #14866 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post

Hey Len,

Did you use a portable FM radio and walk nearby these lights? If so, did you determine the interference to be higher at any particular spot or was it uniform? Essentially, by using the radio like a Geiger Counter, you could potentially isolate the exact trouble spot.

SnellKrell is absolutely correct. Some companies are not very privy to e-mail and a traditional phone call is the best way to communicate. I would definitely call them Monday and if you don't get a satisfactory answer, ask to speak to a manager.

Yes Giacomo. I used a portable FM radio and took it to the transformer and each of the lights. There was not RF noise at the transformer or anywhere in between the transformer and the lights. As soon as I go to the first light I found the RF noise. I went to each light and there was noise coming from each light fixture. So it is not isolated to one fixture. It seemed to be uniform. That is I could not hear more noise from one fixture or another. Perhaps a meter would do a better job but the FM radio was a good idea. By the way I tried the FM radio in my house with a small nite lite I had that was LED lighting and there was no noise. It was quite obvious when I use it on these LED lights outside that they were giving off RF noise.
post #14867 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Molnar View Post

How about contacting the "Consumer Reporter" at local newsroom of one of the TV Stations these LED lights are causing your reception blackout? Maybe a high profile news story could shame someone into action to resolve the willful interference.

I'm not one to go to the media and possibly drag my good neighbors into the spotlight too. Besides with all the other really important social issues going on this hardly seems newsworthy. If there were many more of us OTA folks having this problem I could see getting media attention. However from using this forum and the help of people using it, I may be the only OTA person having LED light issues. At least so far. This may change as time goes on. A lot of people are now putting up Xmas lights on the outside of their houses. I suspect these are going LED and probably made cheaply in China and elsewhere. Stay tuned for possible OTA RF noise issues escalating as people buy new outdoor Xmas lighting.
post #14868 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

Perhaps a meter would do a better job but the FM radio was a good idea.

What the meter would probably help you with is determining a particular frequency for the RF noise. I usually see RF noise affecting VHF frequencies; not so much for the UHF frequencies that I recall you having a problem with.

Armed with a knowledge of the offending frequencies, you may be able to apply filters or High-Low Splitter-Joiners (HLSJ) in order to keep those frequencies from getting to your tuners or (pre-)amplifiers. I used Pico-Macom HLSJs on my antennas, before their pre-amps, as an FM-trap to attenuate a local FM radio station before it could overload my pre-amps and tuners.

But getting a meter into your hands (or getting me/Trip/someone who knows how to use one of these meters) will be more expensive than just buying a HLSJ and trying it.
post #14869 of 17106
So far good news! I did get an email response from Malibu Lighting today. It appears they are aware of the issue with their LED lights giving off RF noise. It goes as follows (the typo is from their message):

"Ye sir we are aware of the issue and have low noise replacements available. Please reply back with a copy of the receipt, model numbers, and quantities needed."

So next I will see if my neighbor has the receipt. Hopefully they do and I can proceed to see if Malibu will actually send replacements and if the replacements are better at suppressing RF noise. My saga continues.
post #14870 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by rothe View Post

What the meter would probably help you with is determining a particular frequency for the RF noise. I usually see RF noise affecting VHF frequencies; not so much for the UHF frequencies that I recall you having a problem with.

Armed with a knowledge of the offending frequencies, you may be able to apply filters or High-Low Splitter-Joiners (HLSJ) in order to keep those frequencies from getting to your tuners or (pre-)amplifiers. I used Pico-Macom HLSJs on my antennas, before their pre-amps, as an FM-trap to attenuate a local FM radio station before it could overload my pre-amps and tuners.

But getting a meter into your hands (or getting me/Trip/someone who knows how to use one of these meters) will be more expensive than just buying a HLSJ and trying it.

Thanks for your advice and help. I think I have been saying from the get go it is impacting 7.1, 11.1, 13.1 and 8.1....all of the VHF stations I receive.
post #14871 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

Thanks for your advice and help. I think I have been saying from the get go it is impacting 7.1, 11.1, 13.1 and 8.1....all of the VHF stations I receive.

I stand corrected. And this might actually be easier to remedy. If the interference is not actually spread across all of these channels and is actually just overloading the tuner or amplifier section handling the entire VHF band, then you might very well benefit from the same solution I used, and just lop off any signal below channel 7.

For a discussion of the issue, see "overload" on this page:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/fixes.html

That Pico-Macom HLSJ that I mentioned earlier is no longer available on Solid Signal, but I'm sure that a similar product is available somewhere. See http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...Splitters&sku=.

Re: the response from the lighting manufacturer, I understand that most parts replacements usually require some proof of purchase like a receipt, but they have a design issue there. It would be present regardless of whether or not the product was still under warranty. You might have to press your case further up their management chain to get a proper remedy.
post #14872 of 17106
Here you go:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...Splitters&sku=

Just hook up your antenna to the "Line" side, hook up your pre-amp to the High side, and put a terminator on the low side. This will give you a cheap and very effective "FM trap" that will drop off all FM and RF interference below channel 7.

If the LED noise is overloading the entire VHF spectrum and is originating below channel 7, then this will solve your problem.
post #14873 of 17106
Hey Len,
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

So far good news! I did get an email response from Malibu Lighting today. It appears they are aware of the issue with their LED lights giving off RF noise. It goes as follows (the typo is from their message):

"Ye sir we are aware of the issue and have low noise replacements available. Please reply back with a copy of the receipt, model numbers, and quantities needed."

So next I will see if my neighbor has the receipt. Hopefully they do and I can proceed to see if Malibu will actually send replacements and if the replacements are better at suppressing RF noise. My saga continues.

I am really very happy this is working out so well for you Not only have you isolated the problem, but your neighbors are obliging to assist, and the company admits their product is faulty AND will replace accordingly. This is all awesome news!

Should your neighbor not have the receipt (and considering how well things have gone up to this point, they probably still do have it) the store they bought it from should have their own copy they could retrieve. Of course, if your neighbors bought it online, there would be online records of the entire transaction from the online vendor.

Can you report back here the specifics of the faulty LED lamps? Such as wattage, manufacturer, etc. I think it would benefit the AVS community to know what to look out for.
post #14874 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by rothe View Post

Here you go:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...Splitters&sku=

Just hook up your antenna to the "Line" side, hook up your pre-amp to the High side, and put a terminator on the low side. This will give you a cheap and very effective "FM trap" that will drop off all FM and RF interference below channel 7.

If the LED noise is overloading the entire VHF spectrum and is originating below channel 7, then this will solve your problem.

Thanks Rothe! I will keep this suggestion in mind in case the plan to get replacement lights does not pan out or the new lights are received from Malibu and they do not fix the problem. Your idea is an option I think might work.
post #14875 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giacomo Siffredi View Post

Hey Len,

I am really very happy this is working out so well for you Not only have you isolated the problem, but your neighbors are obliging to assist, and the company admits their product is faulty AND will replace accordingly. This is all awesome news!

Should your neighbor not have the receipt (and considering how well things have gone up to this point, they probably still do have it) the store they bought it from should have their own copy they could retrieve. Of course, if your neighbors bought it online, there would be online records of the entire transaction from the online vendor.

Can you report back here the specifics of the faulty LED lamps? Such as wattage, manufacturer, etc. I think it would benefit the AVS community to know what to look out for.

Giacomo, the lights are LED low voltage light fixtures sold by Malibu Lighting Corp and made (of course) in China. The model number is 8406-9111-01 and they are rated at 1 watt.
post #14876 of 17106
You got me curious about those lights, so I searched on the product number and found that they're sold at Home Depot. On Malibu's web site, they also show the separate parts that are available, including a separate "socket wiring assembly" (http://www.malibulights.com/products...m=8406-9111-01 - then click on "parts") that is presumably the culprit with your RF interference. LED bulbs themselves, being DC components, wouldn't cause this.

Then I did this Google search:

http://www.google.com/search?q=led+Lighting+rf+noise

There's some really interesting results to be found there. This is a VERY common problem for OTA reception of TV, FM, AM, CB - you name it.
post #14877 of 17106
Rothe,

Yes there seems to be a lot on the internet about this that would not be discussed here on this forum unless one of us was unfortunate (me) enough to encounter the problem. It might be a bigger problem than any of us thought. I'm not sure if there are standards in this country that manuafacturers have to adhere to with respect to RF noise supression/elimination.

Anyway thanks for the continuing research on this issue. I guess whatever it is that houses the bulbs must reduce the wattage from 12 watts that is coming out of the transformer down to 1 watt used by the bulb? And that is the source of the RF noise if it isn't the bulb? Perhaps you folks who better understand electicity can explain it.
post #14878 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by LenL View Post

Rothe,

Yes there seems to be a lot on the internet about this that would not be discussed here on this forum unless one of us was unfortunate (me) enough to encounter the problem. It might be a bigger problem than any of us thought. I'm not sure if there are standards in this country that manuafacturers have to adhere to with respect to RF noise supression/elimination.

I expect that we'll see more of this, and that some of these problems will eventually get sorted out. We've already discussed the FCC's interest (or lack thereof) in such matters, but other countries have similar regulatory mechanisms, and most of these products are marketed globally, so these problems will get attention, eventually.

I also expect that retailers like Home Depot will eventually have some say in the matter, if enough customers bring products back because "it impacts my radio or TV or satellite reception" or "my garage door opener won't work when these lights are on" or "my hearing aid nearly blew my only good ear out!" Those were the kinds of testimonies that I read about LED RF interference this morning. Crap products can't stay on the market forever.

Quote:


Anyway thanks for the continuing research on this issue. I guess whatever it is that houses the bulbs must reduce the wattage from 12 watts that is coming out of the transformer down to 1 watt used by the bulb? And that is the source of the RF noise if it isn't the bulb? Perhaps you folks who better understand electicity can explain it.

It wouldn't be stepping down the wattage, but might be stepping down the voltage. Regardless, there's apparently a noisy component in the socket wiring assembly that I mentioned earlier, or maybe in the base of the bulb itself. Not the actual LED, but some oscillator in the bulb's own circuitry. That was the case with some of the other bulbs that I read about, and the problem is NOT with all implementations of the technology, just like it isn't a problem across the board with all compact fluorescent lights (CFLs).

I'm not saying that there won't continue to be crappy products on the market, but that there will be a need and a market for quality products that don't suffer these RF interference problems.

Maybe Home Depot deserves a heads-up about this problem. Maybe theirs is one of those web sites that allows customer reviews of products. Amazon might be another good place to vent - er, ummm... I mean "to leverage market forces to produce a better product."
post #14879 of 17106
Quote:
Originally Posted by rothe View Post

I expect that we'll see more of this, and that some of these problems will eventually get sorted out. We've already discussed the FCC's interest (or lack thereof) in such matters, but other countries have similar regulatory mechanisms, and most of these products are marketed globally, so these problems will get attention, eventually.

I also expect that retailers like Home Depot will eventually have some say in the matter, if enough customers bring products back because "it impacts my radio or TV or satellite reception" or "my garage door opener won't work when these lights are on" or "my hearing aid nearly blew my only good ear out!" Those were the kinds of testimonies that I read about LED RF interference this morning. Crap products can't stay on the market forever

Another entity which may focus attention on this issue may be emergency responders, police and fire departments, many of whom use VHF frequencies for their mobile and base station communications. There are numerous services making use of the VHF frequencies above the FM Radio Band, including aeronautic, public safety, commercial and government two-way land-mobile, and railroad communications.

Since the test proved that the same interference which obliterated your VHF Television reception was audible on a portable FM radio, that means the interference is affecting ALL the services I listed above. This issue poses a serious risk to the population at large in the event such interference prevents relevant public safety communication to be effectuated.

At this point, I think it would be important to notify the FCC not only to reinforce the weaknesses of relying exclusively upon the VHF Band for Television services, but to alert them to this product and similar ones on the market which on a daily basis by their normal usage are disrupting vital services to communities throughout the country.
post #14880 of 17106
All of you have good points about this issue. In my case I suspect that if you are over 50 to 100 feet from the lights you would not be impacted. Yes my FM radio test did prove the lights were an issue but I had to get within a foot or 2 of the lights to detect a problem. My OTA antennas are about 50 feet away but since they are catching more signal with a much bigger footprint than that FM radio antenna I suspect more impact from RF noise. Plus the line of sight of my antennas are coming into play as they pretty much face the lights. All of these are factors to consider. Those LED lights would probably not be an issue if they being used by the neighbor on the other side of me. I don't think anyone driving on my street will have a radio issue, phone issue etc. Even emergency responders.
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