New York, NY - OTA - Page 526

West 56th Street is the location of the back entrance to the CBS Broadcast Center.

You would think that WLNY would have a contract for the NYC repeater. When CBS bought WLNY they should of got that contract with it?

I wonder if KEN can ask his CBS friends again?

"West 56th Street is the location of the back entrance to the CBS Broadcast Center."


I'm well aware of this. Actually the van is closer to tenth avenue than the 56th steet employee entrance (Before you say anything I'm aware that there are vehicle entrances in a few different places on 56th street). The van was parked near the generators which used to be a small parking area. I ask again why isn't it in Suffolk county on L.I.? No big deal, just curious.

Because on the other side of the van is the CBS 2 logo.

Ahh, I left my x-ray glasses in my other jacket. Sorry.

lol

Well, they dumped "Wheel" and "Jeopardy!" from the WLNY Lineup, apparently as a result of the ownership, market, and Syndex rules....

Cheers!
-Doug

Anybody have a scoop on what may be coming on channels 42.5 & 42.6 ? (color bar test patterns show at this time).

Anybody know why the 42.n channels never show up properly on the www.zap2it.com guide anymore? They USED to - long time ago, but their channels moved around within the same 42 frequency, & then disappeared.
The Bounce channel 9.3 was added not too long ago, & ALREADY zap2it.com has that channel lineup!! Thank you very much.
So what's up with these people at the 42.n channels for NYC & Northeast NJ? Also, the power of channels 42.n is extremely low & I bet not many people aren't even picking them up. I do, but with much antenna fanagling to get hottvchannel.
Right now the http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlisti....do?aid=zap2it listings STILL AFTER MANY MANY MONTHS OR EVEN MORE THAN A YEAR? STILL SHOW THE OLD CHANNEL LINEUPS FOR 42.1 (RTV) & 42.4 (TUFF TV)!!!, NEITHER OF WHICH ARE THE RIGHT CHANNELS AT THOSE FREQUENCES. THEY ARENT EVEN ON THE AIR ANYMORE IN THIS AREA.
What are the chances that new channels 42.5 & 42.6 could become RTV & TUFF TV?

Don't forget three more channels of color bars on WMBQ, 46.2, .3 and .4.

Also noticed when scrolling through channels that WNYW is saved not as 5, but as 44 -- their RF channel. The way WNYW and WWOR simulcast one another and flip the PSIP numbers to make it appear that they don't, make my converter boxes act in peculiar ways.

I tuned to MY9 Tuesday night for the Yankee game; that's the first time I've tuned to MY9 in many months. I got a very solid 84% with the occasional tick up to 85%. This is on my VOOM box. 84% on that box is not "in the green" while 85% is. So that's the demarcation line between "iffy" reception and good reception, with 85% being basically solid reception with little, if any, issues. 83% is very poor reception (reception but with lots and lots of issues -- you basically wouldn't want to watch). But 84% seems to be essentially solid reception unless there's a lot of dropping down below that. On Tuesday nite, it seemed to be a very solid 84%.

So, since I had a VERY solid 84%, with virtually no drops down to 83 but some ticks up to 85, I had virtually no issues throughout the entire game.

Which went to the 12th inning, if I remember correctly. So it was a long game.

I believe this is some of the best MY9 reception I've had since I've been posting on this board. I wonder if it's because they've finished their work on the ESB?

Or it could have just been the weather. I suppose I'll learn more as the season progresses.

As to your comment, I get 9.1, 9.3 and 5.2 at RF 38 and I still cannot pull in 5.1 and 9.2 (or whatever it is they have at RF 44). It's just too weak. I can see it and it does occasionally jump up to 83%, which would be enough to lock it in (if it would stay there long enough, which it generally doesn't), and I have locked it in once or twice in the past, but it's unwatchable in any event.

9.3 seemed to be as strong as 9.1. There was a good flick on it that I watched for several minutes (I think it was Silverado) and reception seemed solid. PQ didn't look too bad either but I didn't watch it long enough to really be sure.

I'm in Northeast NJ - I can not pick up the 58.n, 46.n or 21.n channels - indeed in the http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlisti....do?aid=zap2it for my zip code / local ota broadcast, 46.n channels are not even listed and even tho the 21.n's & 58.n's are listed I can not pick them up with the amplified Triquest Big lots rabbit ears - the best IMHO along with magnavox or zinwell dig to ana converters. If I can barely pick up Hot tv channel with only the magnavox, 21.n's & 58.n's channels must be too far away from me. I doubt their signal is as weak as hot tv channel. lol

how is 9.2 as strong as 9.1 when you say you cant pick up 9.2?

It's all about your location and the antenna you are using. I have 2 outdoor antennas (I used to have 3 but took one down as it did not prove to be useful) and one will pick up 9.1 and 9.2 fine and the other only picks up 9.1 fine. Until you tell us your exact location and the equipment you are using we can not help you much.

I believe 58's signal is pretty weak. I'm only about 8 miles away and although I get it strong when pointed at it, I don't get it at all when pointed away from it a bit. I don't know anything about 50's signal (never have gotten it) but 52's (out of Trenton) is quite strong and that's what I watch.

I'm going on memory from a few years ago, but I believe 58 had a pretty weak signal, relatively speaking. It may have changed since then.

I edited my last post to correct the error that was pointed out.

Len, I note you say you don't get 9.2 on one of your antennas and I think you're much closer than I am, so that kinda confirms my inability to get it and 5.1. I've emailed with one of their engineers about it and he's basically thinking I should be getting it. I'd say it was the ridge that's blocking me from getting it but I get 9.1 and I think their antennas are both on the ESB, no? Their RF's aren't very different, so it shouldn't be my antenna.

Gotta be their signal strength. I'd like to get it for the occasional NY Giants game that's not on Philly Fox 29 (when the Eagles play at the same time), but I have never gotten it. So I have to watch those games on 5.2, which kinda sucks.

BTW, on my last NYC scan on Tuesday I failed to pick up some expected stations that I've gotten in the past, like 41, 63 & 68. Dunno why I didn't get 'em.

We all have differences due to location of our homes, obstacles, our antennas etc. I don't find 58 (8.1) weak at all. I can't get when my neighbors LEDs are on that's all. I'm probably as far from the transmitters as you...maybe more.

As for 9.2 (5.1 also) I can explain that as my CM4228 gets it fine but it is up 40 feet on my chimmney. My other antenna is only about 12 feet off the ground so it does have some issues with certain channels.

Its on the same frequency so there is no reason to expect the 2 to have different signal levels

WMCN on RF44 out of south NJ is likely wiping out any chance of you getting 5.1

Hardly seems likely since it's a weaker station and is probably 3 times farther away in the opposite direction. There's no way my antenna is even gonna sniff WMCN when I'm pointed toward NYC.

I've never even picked it up when pointed toward Philly.


I see different strengths between subchannels and the main channel all the time. In fact, it's rare that they all ever come it at the same strength.

You cannot measure any difference between the "strength" of a main or a sub-channel since that are part of the same signal. Built-in "signal meters" do not measure or indicate signal power.

In the NY City area we do have an exception. 9.1 and 9.2 are not the same broadcast signal. The reality is 9.2 and 5.1 are broadcast at the same signal and 5.2 and 9.1 at the same. The experts on this forum can explain how it is done and why by those stations.

You may technically be correct in your first sentence, but you're definitely wrong in your second sentence. When I scan with my VOOM box, it registers each channel and subchannel as well as the signal strength for each channel and subchannel. The strengths frequently differ. As a matter of fact, they almost always do (they may ALWAYS do, I just never really bothered to document it). This is displayed both as the scan progresses and also when it is completed (as the scan "result").

So my VOOM box most definitely "indicates" signal power for each main channel and subchannel. I'm not saying the readings are accurate, just that it "indicates" a difference.

I also notice that subchannel reception is sometimes more problematic than the main channel reception, or appears to be. I suppose maybe this is a "bandwidth" issue? I dunno. I'm certainly not an engineer.

I suspect that your assessment is correct; however, since I don't really know for sure, I'm just throwing out my observations as food for thought. I certainly wouldn't want to bet serious $$ that you're wrong.


You are correct, but that's not what I was referring to. I don't consider 9.2 a subchannel of 9.1 -- at least not for purposes of this particular discussion. As you say, it's broadcast at an entirely different frequency and, notably, from an entirely different antenna. The only reason 5.2 is a "subchannel" of 9.1, and 9.2 is a "subchannel" of 5.1, is because of the corporate connection between Fox and WWOR, yada yada yada.

It's a corporate situation, not an engineering situation.

But your clarification is appreciated because it is indeed a confusing situation.

You are correct. I forgot about this somewhat rare circumstance.


Unless the display is indicating power levels in dBm or similar, it isn't actually directly measuring power in most cases (perhaps the old VOOM boxes are different).

On most TVs and converter boxes I've tested, the single "signal meter" function uses some arbitrary and proprietary combination of signal power and/or BER/MER rates to provide a consumer-grade indicator. My Sencore meter, OTOH, provides a direct reading of signal power. The APEX 502 box has a dual meter indicator that, I suppose, could be used if someone did a correlation between its linear scale and a signal meter such as the Sencore.

The ONLY tuners I've seen so far that directly measure the signal power are the high-end HDHomerun boxes (TECH3 series).

Interesting thing happened when ch.42come and goes came again and split wCBS 2-1 from CBS+2-2.
About week ago I did FullScan, got 60, and CBS2-1 was forced to 33-1, and CBS+2-2 remained on 2-2 adding about 5 dead subs, punching 2 led to 42, punching 33 to CBS2-1 was the only way.

The VOOM only gives figures in terms of percent. So it's only giving relative figures. 95% means it's receiving the signal more (or "better") than 94%. It has a useful fuction called "aim off-air antenna" which allows you to punch in any RF and get a reading -- again in terms of percent. This is a separate function from running a scan and getting the figures during the scan and also at the end of the scan (displayed as the scan "result" which you can then either accept or reject (cancel)).

On the "aim off-air antenna" function, you enter a RF and get a reading (in terms of percent) displayed as a horizontal bar graph kind of thing. It says in that function window: "Will lock onto signal at 80" and "Must be at least 85 to allow for weather fade"

The bar graph display is orange below 85 and changes to green at 85. The box gives audible beeps which change at 85 and then again above that (I think at 95). That's useful for "tuning" my antenna since I can turn it and listen to the beeps and find the "sweet spot."

My experience is that a solid 84 gives essentially issue-free reception (in good weather, anyway) and a solid 85 is very solid reception, as the box claims. Anything above 85 is obviously even better.

There is always at least some variation in signal strength as displayed with the "aim off-air antenna" function, even if it's only minimal. It is very often a very wide variation, like with RF 44 (5.1 and 9.2). That one typically peaks at 83 (but not for more than 2 or 3 seconds) and then drops off to zero. I almost never can lock it in even tho' it does peak at 83. I think in order to lock it in it needs to sustain that reading longer than it does. During a scan the box will typically pause for several seconds at a given RF and then either lock that in or not. So it apparently takes some time for it to lock in a given RF station.

The VOOM is much better at pulling in stations than my Samsung SIR-TS360 receiver. But it does have that conflict with TVGOS, which means I can't use it to watch the NYC and Philly CBS stations. It also has a conflict with WLVT's subchannels, which it can't distinguish. Thus 39.3 shows up same as the main channel, rather than with the programming it's actually carrying, and 39.4 gives me nada even tho' it's locked in at virtually the same strength as 39.1 and 39.3.

I find the discrepancy between the Fox stations (5.1 & 9.2) and the MY9 stations (9.1, 9.3 & 5.2) puzzling. The RFs aren't that different (38 & 44), so I can't believe it's my antenna. So I'm thinking it's gotta be their antennas and, perhaps, their relative broadcast powers?

As I've posted recently, 9.1 is pretty much a rock solid 84 (at least) whereas 5.1 is essentially continuous cycles of a momentary 83 followed by a drop to zero. That seems like quite a wide variation for two stations which are corporately connected (if that's a word) and with both their antennas located on the ESB.

So what's up with that?

As I said earlier I have 2 different antennas at 2 different locations on my chimmney and one receives both 9.1 and 5.1 great. The other just barely pulls in 5.1 with some pixillation and even dropouts from time to time. Same house. Same part of Jersey.

There are many factors that can affect your ability to receive or not receive a station which I won't get into because you will likely just dispute it but if the channel is that important to you, invest a few dollars in a newer converter or experiment with your setup. Blaming Fox and posting the same complaint over the course of several months is less likely to get positive results.

Sooooooo, how does that one do with 9.1? You didn't say. Sounds like all you've shown is that your other antenna's location is lousy for 5.1. How does that lead you to conclude that my situation, where I'm using only one antenna (obviously not at different locations, as is your situation) is due to that antenna?



The fact that you receive both stations fine on your one antenna means only that you're in a good spot to receive both on that antenna. That's obviously not my situation. I'm clearly on the edge of reception for MY9, so it only makes sense to me that if Fox's signal is weaker than MY9's, I'd have a problem receiving it.

Which is indeed the case.

And which also was my point.

So I don't see why you think it's "me" and not Fox. As I said, their RF's are fairly close, so I seriously doubt that my antenna isn't as able to get RF 44 as it is RF 38. I'm using a roof mounted RS Model VU-190 XR antenna, which has the rather standard UHF end.

Perhaps nyctveng can enlighten us.


Thanks for the advice, but 5.1 isn't very important to me at all. And you're correct, I will 'dispute" something you've said. I don't think I've ever posted before about 5.1, so I don't know where you got the idea I've been "blaming Fox and posting the same complaint over the course of several months." But even if I had been, I dunno why you think it would be "less likely to get positive results." I doubt either station cares much about whatever I might say.

Feel free to give me those many factors that you feel would affect my ability to receive RF 44 as opposed to RF 38. I already gave you two of them: 1) Fox's antenna location (as opposed to MY9's) and 2) Fox's broadcast power (as opposed to MY9's). Now that I've checked it out, I see that WNYW's broadcast power is 246 kW while MY9's is 170 kW. And they both claim to be at the same height. Both antennas are on the ESB. So I guess it's not a power thing since 5.1 is at higher power, same location, same height.

So I'm intrigued. What's your take on it?

Enlighten us with your wisdom and expertise, kind sir.

Your problem may be you are at the Bridgwater Commons Mall. Try to get reception at your house instead of in the Macy's store. Just kidding.

I guess the best thing I can tell you is go to TVFOOL and plug in your exact address and your Antenna info and they will tell you the signals you are supposed to be getting and strength. You should see what you are supposed to be getting for 5.1 and 9.1 etc.

I have found TVFOOL to not be too accurate for me but others swear by it:

http://www.tvfool.com/

You can also validate the findings by also checking this site which may give slightly different results:

http://transition.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

The difference in power amounts to 1.6 dB and if you get one and not the other you're pretty close to the "cliff." Your issue is more likely "multipath." With all the reflective surfaces in the vicinity, both static and dynamic, you are in the middle of a classic geometry problem where signals received over the direct path can add in phase or out of phase with their reflections that travel longer paths. That addition depends upon the wavelength of the signal. UHF antenna installers have long known that moving the antenna up/down/left/right will change the strength of received signals making placement and orientation a compromise to get acceptable reception from multiple stations even when co-located like on ESB. Unfortunately very few posess suitable test equipment to observe signal strengths while positioning the antenna, and the wimpy "strength" feature of most digital receivers is not elegant enough in challenging reception situations such as yours.