New York, NY - OTA - Page 531

Can you help me understand how sub channels destroy PQ? I am not sure if this is related but I wonder why Channels 2 and 4 broadcast in 1080i (and I think so does Channels 11 and 13), however, Channels 5 and 7 broadcast in 720p.

The expression 'there is only so much bandwidth in the ground' comes to mind, apologies to Tower Of Power.

Each Digital TV (DTV) station has a fixed data payload to broadcast with, and that number is 19.4 Mbps. Each subchannel must have at least some bandwidth and by default when you have more than one subchannel the others get less bandwidth.

Uncompressed HD video can have many, many times the bandwidth available to DTV stations, so it's already compressed drastically for broadcast. By allocating data to a second (or third) channel, it automatically reduces the data, and quality of the HD channel.


720p & 1080i are both legitimate HD formats. Neither is inherently better than the other. When the DTV standards were being developed, one faction (computer oriented) felt the visual stability of 720 progressive video was better. The other faction (TV oriented) felt the higher resolution of 1080 interlaced video was better. To keep everyone happy, both formats were included in the standards. In general, 720p is considered better for fast moving images, while 1080i has more detail.

If done properly, both can look great.

And the choice of 720p was made by FOX and ABC (including ESPN) because of their telecasting sports. As Ken mentioned - "720p is considered better for fast moving images..."

Although, for me, WCBS broadcasting NFL games using 1080i (at least before 2.2 showed up) provided gorgeous pictures.

And that's a common opinion. On CBS affiliates with only an HD channel (no subchannels), CBS is considered the gold standard for televised HD sports.

Another often ignored consideration is individual perception of the different formats. Some people are simply more sensitive to interlaced artifacts, while others are more drawn to detail. There is no accounting for these preferences being right or wrong; all are legitimate. Or in other words, to each their own.

Digital TV formats used by the major networks:

1080i
CBS
NBC
PBS
The CW

720p
ABC
FOX
My Network TV
ION

(Nationally, there are very limited exceptions to this list.)



For cable/DBS/Fiber/IPTV HD channels, the breakdown is approximately 75% 1080i and 25% 720p.

Guys, Thanks for all the good information, this really helps me understand better. I have to agree about CBS (even with 2.2) that their broadcast of NFL games is superior to that of Fox. I am not a super watch every game sports fan, but I am a huge NY Giants fan and I also follow the Jets, which means I usually see a CBS 1080i broadcast and a Fox 720p broadcast every Sunday in the fall and CBS looks better.

I wonder if this could be due to my TV and where I sit. The Pioneer 60" plasma that we have will do Dot by Dot for 1080i or p and this is the sharpest picture I can get on the set where as the 720p from Fox is displayed in a setting called "Auto". Also I forced us to sit just a little under 8 feet from the screen even though we could sit 20 feet away in the family room (my wife does not like the furniture arrangement for sitting at 8 feet, but she likes the PQ ) so that we could actually be close enough that the human eye can resolve 1080 lines and thus I think we notice the 1080 versus 720 difference more. These are both just speculation on my part, I have not done any experiments to verify either hypothesis.

CBS 2.2
I believe this subchannel has been an experiment that proved to CBS that adding a mobile DTV stream by extracting another 2-5 Mbit/sec on top of the 2 Mbits/sec devoted to 2.2, is not in the cards if they want to keep sports PQ. Why they keep running 2.2 is a mystery.

I believe that WCBS put 2.2 on the air because of the FCC's spectrum threat to stations - "use it or lose it!"

Until then, it was the only NYC major station without a sub-channel.

No wonder no one at the station cares about it!

what spectrum ?
They have a Digital signal using 6 Mhz, how can
the FCC tell them they must have at least 1 SubChannel ?

Does not make sense

Complain to Washington, not me!

Sorry you couldn't be more wrong. Likely there was an internal push to get it on air then tweak later. Once the channel gains some cable carriage, expect the appearance and content to improve. Also CBS has been quite busy with the acquisition and integration of WLNY's operation which is a bigger priority over 2.2

Use it or lose it can probably apply to on air digital stations that use a small portion of their spectrum (no HD and little or no sub channels) Examples would be WLNY before acquired by CBS and WNYE being SD with 1 sub channel.

It looks like that since I have gone OTA my DVR clocks have drifted off by different amounts. What channel or setting are folks that are OTA from NYC (ESB) using to set their DVR clocks?

What brand / model DVR are you referring to?

Magnavox MDR515H

My tivos alerted me of new channels in the area that i cant tune in:


12-1 WPXULD
12-2 WPXULD2
12-3 WPXULD3
23-3 WDVCD3

Guide data for 12-x is showing the exact data that ION 31-x has. a repeater of some sort?

23-3 has spanish guide data

WPXU 35-1 is located in North Carolina

WPXU-LD 12 is in New York. http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.p...=1425629&map=Y

- Trip

My neighbor installed the replacement LED patio lights from Malibu and left them on for me to test my TV reception and the results were great! It looks like the issue is resolved!

Do you have a link on what these lights look like?

Glad they fixed it

Officially resolved as I was able to view all of the hi VHF channels last night.
The new lights look just like the old lights but an engineer made some modifications to the electronics. As a side note it looks like Home Depot no longer sells this model.

At great risk of life and limb, I've now eliminated #3 from the equation.


I am advised that MY9 is actually at 170kW at the present time and will not be at 355kW any time soon as there is no presently-scheduled completion date on the modified construction plan.


This issue would have made #4 on my 1st post above if I had known of it. But now that I've eliminated the tree issue, it's #3. That means my potential issues now are:

1) The new LED lighting (but that would be silly)
2) Some problem or change in MY9's situation
3) The new 1 WTC building

As to #2, I am now in email contact with the Director of Engineering at Fox and he has advised that there's been no change in the MY9 broadcast situation. So that would seem to eliminate #2 from the equation, leaving only the new LED lighting and the new 1 WTC building as possible causes of my problem.

My engineer contact made two suggestions to me:

1) I believe that your reception issue is possibly related to the deciduous tree that is in your LOS, it makes sense that as soon as the leaves appeared on the trees, the signal degraded, especially for the UHF channels.

2) There could be reflections from 1WTC that could add to the cancellation of signal strength due to multipath.

So I endeavored to eliminate his first suggestion from the equation. It actually was 2 trees that were involved: a swamp maple and a "pin oak." I climbed them because I chose to just top them off rather than cutting them down. I didn't have to climb too high into the maple to top it off, but the pin oak is pretty tall and I had to go waay up there to top it off. I've never been all that keen on heights but it's funny; once you're up there for awhile ya get pretty comfortable with it. I'd say I was a good 45 - 50 feet up. At first it felt like I was 200 feet up but after awhile it didn't seem like a big deal at all and I kinda liked it. I guess that's the attraction of tree houses (??)

So those treetops are now gone gone gone.

That leaves the possibilities as:

1) The LED lights on the ESB. I think we can eliminate that because I don't know why those lights wouldn't affect (for example) CBS at RF 33 or NBC at RF 28 as much as they'd impact MY9 at RF 38. So I'm thinking the lights can be eliminated.

2) The new 1 WTC building. This is still a viable possibility, I guess.

3) A change in MY9's situation. Despite the engineer's representation, I still find it hard to believe that something hasn't changed over there. Call me crazy, but I think this is the real cause. I mean, how much taller could 1 WTC have gotten from April 23 to May 15? And if 1 WTC isn't the cause of my problem, then what the heck is??

So, may I suggest that anyone else in NJ who's about as far out as I am (let's say I'm in Somerville) be kind enough to advise how your reception of MY9 is? If there's anyone else out there who's at my distance, I'd really appreciate hearing from you. And if you're in my approximate direction, I'd also really appreciate hearing from you.

Because I assume that any 1 WTC effect would affect all of us, no?

Let me close by noting that my MY9 reception is now VERY much different than ever before in the past, and certainly VERY VERY much different from what it was on April 10 and April 23. It's virtually nil now. I can't even lock it on a scan; and I've tried many times, both before and after topping the trees.

From my experience:

1. LEDS only impact VHF. So your my9 issue is probably not LED related.

2. I have had channels increase and lose signal strength throughout the year for months at a time for no apparant reason. For me 2.1 and 7.1 can be in the 90's some months and in the 70;s other months. Sometimes its when leaves are on trees and other times its when leaves are off trees. No connection can be found.

3.That being said, I look at my reception from last May and my CM4228 antenna was getting 9.1 close to 90% and now it is in the 60's. So something has happened. This is not an issue for me as I have 2 antennas in operation right now and the other antenna is picking it up much better.

Len -

Thanks much for the feedback. From Google maps it looks like you're about the same distance away as I am but in a much different direction. If you look at the map at the 10 mi scale size, I'm basically at the "d" in Bridgewater. That is, I'm maybe 7-8 miles south of the intersection of Route 78 and Route 287, which can clearly be seen on any map.

So you've confirmed that something has changed from last May. I suppose it could be the "1 WTC effect" but I think that unlikely. And if that IS it, then given that I'd be more affected than you are, because 1 WTC is more in my LOS than in yours, then this represents a major impact.

And I can't imagine that 1 WTC could have any effect on you at all. Your LOS to the ESB should be clear of any effect from that building whereas I could see that it might interfere with my reception because it's probably more or less in my LOS to the ESB.

Still, I find it hard to believe that 1 WTC could have such a major change in my reception in such a short time frame. We're talking about 22 days from April 23, when I had very excellent reception, to May 15, when I had virtually no reception at all -- which is how it's continued to stay since then.

So I'm still thinking that it's something at the station's end. I never thought it could be the LED lights on the ESB but ya have to consider every possibility, I suppose.

I also never thought it was my treetops. But since they definitely were smack in my LOS for MY9 reception, I was thinking of taking those down anyway since I have always had difficulty with MY9 reception and I figured every little bit helps, no? And now I know that they really didn't have any effect on my NYC reception, at least not for either 5.1 or 9.1. And those are really the only stations that would be affected, at least for me. I never watch 2.1 (RF 33) and have no need for 4.1 (RF 28) either. I do have a need for 7.1 and 11.1 and (sometimes) 13. But those are all VHF and likely weren't going to be affected by the trees anyway.

So I topped my trees and it didn't help with my 9.1 reception at all. And thanks to your input, it seems that something indeed has changed rather dramatically at the station. That is, unless it's due to 1 WTC, which I seriously doubt.

BTW, I'm using an RS Model VU-190 XR antenna. It's a monster but has served me well. It pulls in everything except 5.1 and 9.1, which I attribute to the stations and not to my antenna.

I've seen your CM4228 so I know what that's about. What is the other antenna that's working so well for you with 9.1?

Thanks again for the good feedback. Much appreciated.

In addition to the CM4228, I built a number of antennas of various designs (M-Clapp and Grey Hoverman) and settled on the Grey Hoverman (GH) as working best for me and easy to build. So I built 2 GH antennas and installed them on masts below my CM4228. Then I decided that I only needed 1 GH to complement my CM4228. It pulls in some stations better than the CM4228 and having the CM4228 and 1 GH gives me enough reception to feed 3 TVs and 2 DVRS. The GH pulls in all the stations quite well except and in some cases better except for 5.1 which the CM4228 does much better. The GH is about 15-20 feet lower than the CM4228.

Yes, I think you posted pictures of your 3 antennas back when (not sure when that was). I haven't looked for those pics but maybe I will when I get a moment.

It's interesting that the antenna that's pulling in MY9 better is also mounted lower than the CM4228.

Go figure, huh?

Yes it does not make sense that the CM4228 is highrer and lost a lot of MY9 signal and the lower antenna is fine.

However from my experience a lot of OTA reception issues do not make sense. Since the start of the digital TV era till today my reception with my CM4228 has been all over the place with channels 2.1, 4.1, 7.1 and 9.1. I can go for months with reception in the upper 80's to mid 90's and other times reception can get into the 70's and lower.

The only station that has consistently been in the 90's has been 5.1. I never had an issue with it no matter the season or weather since the start of digital TV. Same antenna on my house, never moved and tansmissions are from the ESB...it hasn't moved and yet there are changes to reception.

Let me add that there have been changes between our line of sight to the ESB and our antennas. I'm sure cell phone towers or other buildings have gone up that may be coming into play. Don't know for sure but it is possible.

It could also be a billboard or something else. If you have any wiggle room, move your antenna up/down/left/right while watching the strength number on your TV. At UHF frequencies, it only takes a few inches to make a big difference between phase addition and phase cancellation. Look for a sweet spot where all stations are good, but you may have to compromise really high numbers on some channels to get acceptable reception on problem channels.

By "our" I assume you are including me in your scenario.


Again, my situation appears to be pretty simple factually. I had very good reception of this one station on April 10 and April 23. I then next tried it again on May 15, which is 22 days later. Reception was (and remains) zilch.

I don't think there were any cell phone towers or billboards or increases in height to 1 WTC that occurred in that time period which would account for the dramatic reduction in signal that I'm now seeing. I can't even lock this station in anymore, and I've had it since I went OTA in January 2007. It's always been a PITA (compared to the other stations), but it's always been there.

And now it isn't.

The only "change" that I thought could MAYBE account for the difference between then and now was the treetops (the leaves). So I got rid of that potential obstruction and there was NO change in reception.

So that's been eliminated and is out of the equation.

Now, also consider that this station has a construction permit to take the power from 170 to 355. I'm now told that there's no "scheduled completion date." Are they "working on" that construction? If so, what are they doing? Are they doing anything that might affect their signal?

And what about the other work at the ESB? That work was ongoing last year and it was then said that it would continue into this year. How long into this year?

For my money the answer here is simple. It definitely ain't my treetops, which I was told (pretty emphatically) was the likely problem. So that wasn't it. There's no doubt about that.

I also don't believe that it's 1 WTC or a billboard or a cell phone tower or space aliens. It appears that I'm not the only NJ guy seeing a rather significant reduction in signal FOR THIS STATION. And since I'm clearly on the edge of reception for all NYC stations, and apparently for this particular station particularly, because of my particular location, it's not surprising to me that LenL's ~20+% reduction in signal would knock me right out of the box.

It appears to have knocked him out of the box on his one antenna. Thankfully for him he has another antenna that pulls it in better.

So what do I think it is?

It's freaking MY9 and their "situation." I mean, "Duh"!!

I have no way of knowing what change they made since April 23 and they obviously aren't inclined to tell me since they have said that "nothing's changed."

So I'm just stuck until things change for the better -- if that ever happens.

I won't hold my breath.

Let me also add that it's not just this particular station that is the particular problem for me. It's also the companion station, 5.1. I've really never gotten that one.

Let's face it. We don't know what power they are REALLY broadcasting at, do we? I mean, MY9 has a license to broadcast at 170kW, but do we really KNOW that they are broadcasting at that power level? Is 5.1 also broadcasting at "full power"?

They are both Fox stations. Maybe poor old Rupert had to cut back the power. He is having problems, ya know.

It looks like there's major Tropo tonight. I couldn't get WCAU out of Philly(NBC), which never happens, so long story short I did a rescan and picked up a bunch of Baltimore stations. I've lost many of my usual Philly stations.

Just for fun I tried a rescan for NYC stations and I lost just about all of them on that rescan.