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X1 Black Level - Page 3  

post #61 of 107
Mupi,
There is a button on the X1 menu to display blank screen.
You can chose it to be white, blue or black.
Chose black and observe the screen. Now your X1 is uniformly projecting "black" on the entire surface of the screen.
This is as black as you gonna get. No confusing bars, no dvd signal, no 0 IRE settings, not even perceived darkness levels or optical illusions.... but simply no image - blank, black screen. That is the very bottom of the greyscale your X1 can achieve. Ever.

Now stand in the lightpath of the projector - you will see your shadow that is unfortunately much darker. This is where X1 doesn't project any light, because your blocking it.
But guess what - it isn't really BLACK either...

If your ceiling and walls are bright in color where you see the shadow there is still light on the screen - it bounces of those surfaces and lands on iit.
Remember - your screen is white and you need TOTAL absence of light to make it look black.
This is fairly impossible to achieve, unless you have ZERO ambient light, your ceiling and walls are black and the pj projects no light whatsoever.

In your case, none of the above conditions are likely met, so you will only get grey. Just face it.

It has just as much to do with the abilities of your projector as it has with the amount of work you spent to make your image look good.

I'm affraid if you are looking for out-of-the-box perfection you are on the wrong forum.
post #62 of 107
Bob,

Yes I've seen them side by side, but not in my home.

However, the differences I saw between the HT1000 and the X1 at work were not massive on DVD, and especially not if it is strictly black level.

Let me put it this way, if you had an HT1000 and an X1 firing side by side onto an identical gain screen via DVD, you should think the HT1000 was better, but look closely.

If you fired the X1 onto a grey screen instead, you (or me anyway) might prefer the X1.

If you have HDTV, all bets are off.

That aside, for us poor folk I can't see any reason to spend more on a PJ until something dramatically better happens.


Steve
post #63 of 107
Quote:
Originally posted by Mupi
Well I returned my X1 to Best Buy and took a new one. Just hooked it up and guess what: same light spill, just a carbon copy. I guess the lot sent to BB is defective. It is possible that those units were assembled in the area where people didnt take proper care while assembling the unit.
Thats it no more X1 for me. I shall wait till I can afford a more expensive PJ like NEC240 that has better optics/fan noise.
These posts are getting pretty comical. I didn't get my projector from Best Buy, I've had it since the end of December and I would bet you that my light spill is the same as yours. After seeing two you think it's just a problem with the ones at Best Buy? :rolleyes:

Do you also get that line to the left where light comes through the vents? Of course you do! I know you do because I've read more than one post from other people mentioning it. I think there's also some light spill out the top creating a dim line above the picture, but that one would be on my ceiling so I don't see it unless I make the picture smaller.

I really don't know how many ways people have to explain that you won't get pitch black from any digital projector right now. I thought the black blank screen would make it pretty obvious. If you're going to bother returning another one, just get your money back and buy a Z1 or some other 16x9 projector
post #64 of 107
Mupi-

If you only watch anamorphic DVDs then you should go and get a native 16:9 projector, but be aware that they gray bars will be still be there albeit skinnier than on the X1 according to the aspect ratio that the movie was filmed in. Masking still needed if it bothers you.

But...if you ever watch older DVDs or DTV shows shot in 4:3 or connect a VCR, camcorder, older console game system, computer, or any 4:3 source on said projector: WATCH OUT! Because thoses gray bars will jump the the left and right of your screen and be fatter.

It all depends on what you watch most, the best compromise in my opinion is a 4:3 projector with masking system until the majority of source material
is shot wide screen.

Lovin my 4:3 projector!

(man, 4 posts in the time it takes me to write one)
post #65 of 107
Hi, everyone, I'm new to the forum, but just in the last few weeks I've learned an enormous amount here.

Mupi, I agree with everything Robert has been saying. Maybe I can add a couple of examples.

I just finished painting a flat black border on my DIY Parkland screen (inspired by guys on this forum, thanks!). Now when I look at the screen, I definitely perceive the border as black. But the other day I was playing around with some paints. On a test piece of wood I had painted an area satin black, a really rich black; next to it I painted an area of my flat black used on the screen border. I was surprised to see that next to the satin black the flat black looked a medium gray, not black. In fact, if you look at my screen on the wall, then at the test strip, it's hard to believe the two flat blacks are the same.

A similar phenomenon happens with bright objects as well. I'm sure you've seen photographs of the sun with sunspots. At low magnification, the sunspots look like black ants or bugs crawling on the surface of the sun. Well, the areas of the sun's surface where the sunspots appear are at a temperature of several thousand degrees and are certainly not dark nor areas that do not emit light. It's just that the surrounding areas on the sun are several thousand degrees hotter, so the human eye perceives the spots as dark. It all comes down to how the human eye handles contrast (of course I'm no expert on the human eye, just citing illustrative examples).

Sorry to ramble on so long. My X1-based home theater should be up and running in a few more days; I'll write a mini-review of my X1 impressions after that. Keep up the great posts!

Gerry
post #66 of 107
Going on my second week with the X1 and things are great!
I have tried different type media to project on (currently I'm
on the white wall of my apartment). I found that the blacks
looked blacker on gray media (gray foamboard). I actually
hung this up and used it for a while. I found that even
though I seemed to have blacker blacks, I was no longer
getting those bright vivid colors I had grown to love. I
switched back to the white wall.

Because I'm in an apartment I couldn't do very much to alter
the room (i.e. painting). I did however, buy some of that 1/16"
craft foam that comes in sheets. I used the one which comes
with adhesive backing. I pieced together a mask around the
16X9 area (in my case 5" top and bottom and 1 1/2" side). This
black foam totally absorbs the light and my gray bars from the native
4:3 are gone. I have HDTV cable TV and just love the widescreen 1080i
picture. I know I will have gray bars inside my masking when watching 4:3 media, but I decided that most of my viewing will now be HDTV widescreen and DVD widescreen.

Again, I want to thank all the guys in here who helped me to become an FP enthusiast.
post #67 of 107
"It all comes down to how the human eye handles contrast "

It took you only 11 words to convey exactly the same thing that took me 3000 words, Gerry. :) And your sun spot example is really fascinating. I had never thought about that.

And thanks for giving your take on HT1000 vs X1 black level, Steve. When I was reading this forum back in the DL450 days, you were always one we could count on to get an honest opinion.

Bob
post #68 of 107
Yeah I wasn't going to say anything else in this thread, but I gotta give you kudos for bringing up sun spots, great example!
post #69 of 107
Aw shucks Bob, you'll make me blush.

;)
post #70 of 107
Thanks for the positive feedback, guys. I'm going to try to build a wall mount for my X1 this weekend (again based on ideas from this forum!). Can't wait to be up and running. Hope everyone has a great 4th!
post #71 of 107
ok I have mentioned this several times in many posts related to X1 issues. I mention this one last time:

The top bars are ok, not pitch black but I can live with it with some masking.

The bottom third of the 4:3 image including the bars is much brighter than the rest and the lower left corner is a much more brighter. I confirmed this by puttting a black blank screen. Whetever you call it: smudge or nonuniformity of the image. it is this nonuniformity of brightness that
puts a constant bright image at the lower half and so the image
looks washed out in the lower half, especially lower left corner. And this
mainly affects dark scenes as I can very clearly see this bright area on the
screen. No amount of masking will help as the brighness issue is in the
image also and not just in the bars. It was very evident after I turned
the blank screen to black.

I had the same problem with the first X1 also. I guess there was another post where this exact same problem was mentioned.

So if you put a blank black screen and if you see an uniform black image you are lucky. I know for sure this is some kind of defect. Dont want to argue anymore. I have tried a replacement unit and it is better for me not to explore something I have trouble living with. So will go for Z1.
post #72 of 107
Now we are able to understand better exactly what it is that you've been seeing, Mupi.
It is pretty common. I don't think any projector I've owned yet has had total uniformity over the entire image area. It can be non-uniform light intensity or can be non-uniform color tint. With some pj's it's very subtle and not really obectionable. With others it's more visible and more objectionable. But even then I see it mostly only when a scene has a large expanse of the same color on the screen (similiar to the blank screen you were viewing).

I respect your decision (I'm now trying my best to live by what's expressed in my signature below).
But if what you're describing above is something you really object to then you'll want to make sure your next choice doesn't give you the same thing. I know nothing about the Z1 so hopefully it won't. But I have owned several LCD's which do.

For the rest of us who are going to keep our X1's, what Mupi is seeing is another good reason to want to mask or eliminate those bars. Because any non-uniformity will usually be more noticeable there than anywhere else.

Bob
post #73 of 107
I've had the X1 for about 3 months now. When I first had it set up I noticed that during mostly dark scenes on dvd I would get 'extra' light spillage into the bottom 'black' bar. The spillage looks like a grey horizontal band starting at the bottom of the image and extending down about 1/3 into the bar. The spillage would light on and off as the video image changes. The spillage is reproducible. I can recall seeing it on certain dark scenes on Attack of the Clones. This effect went away when I switched from S-video interlaced to component through VGA.

Any comments appreciated.
post #74 of 107
In my case since I see it in the blank screen I believe in my case it has nothing to do with the source as the PJ optics itself isnt perfet, as expected for a $1000 PJ. But if the image isnt dark it is not objectionalbe. Movie like Toy Story which is bright throught look perfect. Wheras Lord of the rings just cant be watched with this noniniform brightness. Doesnt matter whether it is S-Vide or VGA. It is there in the PJ itself so cant be eliminated no matter what. Can only be reduced to some extent by masking all the way to 2.35. I need a really really black cloth. I tried felt cloth which I bought for $2.50. It isnt dark enough. I need black velvet that sells at $20 per yard but cutting a velvet or felt cloth in perfect straightline isnt easy unless I go buy some tools. After all that if the brightness issue is in the image area as in mine all this doesnt help.
I would probably order Z1, compare both side by side and decide whether to keep one or just be happy with my 27'' wega TV :-)
post #75 of 107
I have my own experiences of light spillage, but from an environmental cause -- my screen is in an 8' wide, 3' deep alcove (imagine a wide deep coat closet w/o the doors).

the area was painted a flat white when I first got my X1 in January. I set it up, setting contrast and brightness and projected on the white wall at the back of that alcove.

a couple of months ago I built a Parkland screen and painted the inside of the alcove (walls and ceiling) a reddish/pruplish/charcoal [ ace hardware's color called 'pilot rock' ] -- in a flat finish. I immediately had to increase the X1 brightness setting pretty substantially -- from 50 to 70.

my theory is that some of my image's perceived brightness was actually coming from light bounced around the alcove and back onto the screen area. painting it darK as I did killed much of that reflection.

so in cutting out the reflected ambient light I lost some brightness but gained color punch. then I increased the brightness on the X1 to bring it back to where I liked it.

I mention this as we've drifted into light spillage and wanted to mention that reflections from walls and ceilings could be causing some of the issues being discussed here.

for better or worse, the combination of projector, room and screen is a package and must be tuned as such. it doesn't make much sense to me to discuss black levels or light spillage w/o considering the whole package.

Mark
post #76 of 107
Well I took my projector very close to the wall just some 2-3 feet so that the light intensity is strong enough to hush up any light reflection from wall or ceiling etc. etc. I threw the black blank screen and I could clearly see the nonuniformity of the image. As I said the entity exists and can never be killed as it is a defect inherent in the design of an inexpensive PJ. Either live with it or return it.

The later is a better solution in my case as I cant stomach something like that when I pay $1000 which to me is not very cheap. I could easily buy a sony wega 36 inch for that price and be very happy with the 16:9 compression mode and its black level, provided THERE IS NO GRAVITY ON EARTH!
post #77 of 107
Quote:
Originally posted by Mupi
Well I took my projector very close to the wall just some 2-3 feet so that the light intensity is strong enough to hush up any light reflection from wall or ceiling etc. etc. I threw the black blank screen and I could clearly see the nonuniformity of the image. As I said the entity exists and can never be killed as it is a defect inherent in the design of an inexpensive PJ. Either live with it or return it.

The later is a better solution in my case as I cant stomach something like that when I pay $1000 which to me is not very cheap. I could easily buy a sony wega 36 inch for that price and be very happy with the 16:9 compression mode and its black level, provided THERE IS NO GRAVITY ON EARTH!
I wonder how much of this non-uniformity is actually noticed when you're watching a movie or is it just something which bugs you?

and as far as reflections go, by bringing the light source closer to the area you're projecting onto, you're just increasing the birghtness of the light bounced off your screen/wall, around and back to the screen. I don't think you've proven anything. mask the walls and ceiling around your screen and then look at the brightness uniformity.

and by your last sentence I take it to mean there's no good solution for you ... you don't want to modify your area to kill light falling on the screen so the X1 is no good and a wega is too heavy. It might seem that life sucks for you but don't blame the X1. these are your rules at work.

[my opinion:] I think the X1 is one of the best home entertainment deals out there and is a terrific buy at $1K and I gladly make the compromises needed to take advantage of the stunnning 95" picture my X1 delivers.

Mark
post #78 of 107
Quote:
it is a defect inherent in the design of an inexpensive PJ
Quote:
the PJ optics itself isn't perfect, as expected for a $1000 PJ
What you're experiencing is not something that is found only with "inexpensive" projectors. My G10 D-ILA (with an original MSRP of $17,500) had uniformity issues too.

And the lesser priced projectors don't necessarily have inferior optical components either. My Davis DL450 (which like the X1 was once a popular projector with the frugal crowd) had the finest optical system I've ever seen on a digital projector.

Paying more money doesn't always guarantee you better quality or better performance.

Bob
post #79 of 107
Quote:
Originally posted by Mupi
I threw the black blank screen and I could clearly see the nonuniformity of the image. As I said the entity exists and can never be killed as it is a defect inherent in the design of an inexpensive PJ. Either live with it or return it.

The later is a better solution in my case as I cant stomach something like that when I pay $1000 which to me is not very cheap.
Mupi,
The brighter corner issue is common with X1. The smaller/brighter the image the more obvious it is.
If someone is using their X1 always in 16x9 mode and with proper masking they could possibly never even notice it.
But on the 4:3 unmasked screen it was visible on both PJs I had.

However you don't have to just live with it or return it.

I found a solution for this problem that worked wonders for me - it was a linear polarizing filter that:
1. decreased the overall brightness of the image, thus lowering the black level
2. reduced appearance of rainbows
3. by rotating the ring on the filter to a certain position I was able to kill the reflection that is causing the "glowing" corner.

I am projecting my movies onto a 4X3 pull-down da-lite matte white screen without masking and the black bars are uniform and very, very dark now.
I don't have any equipment to measure the light uniformity exactly, but to my eyes it is now very close to perfect, and so are black levels.
I have shared may experiences in a few threads before, but I suppose you didn't bother looking.
And by the way, $1000 dollars maybe a lot of money for a designer's suit or an interconnect cable, but it is CHEAP for a digital projector.
post #80 of 107
so where do I buy this filter and how much does it cost?
if it is like $50 I could try it.
post #81 of 107
I don't see brightness uniformity problems on my X1. I tried the experiments that Mupi tried also.

If this is a problem, it is not with all X1's.;)
post #82 of 107
mpilon: Let me explian the problem one more time or read piesek's post.
The brightness issue is not just on the bars. it is on the image too. This corner bright area creeps into the image enough to bother me. May be I am a lot more sensitive than others and my tolerance level is low.

I was able to completely get rid of the lower bars all the way upto 2.35 just by putting a black wooden plank about 1.5 feet infront of the PJ. At this distance the shadow still doesnt have a sharp edge but enough to mask the bars. I will go get a 4feet MDF and put it at some 4 feet so that I get a sharp edge. But that still doesnt get rid of the bright spot on the image at left corner (not corner of 4:2 screen, corner of 2.35 image)

No matter how mcuh I do to reduce the reflections from wall/ceiling etc. the relative brightness between this corner and rest of the image will still be there. I draped felt cloth all around the image. BTW my image now is only 60'' diagonal as I am still testing. Hope you get it now.

piesek: could you please give the link to your thread if the cost and other info is there. or could you please send me a pm about the web site where I can buy that. I am not sure how to read a PM so please let me know if you sent me a pm and how to access it.
post #83 of 107
piesek,

Do you think with the filter in place it's going to be necessary to also have the High Power screen gain to have enough brightness?
I have a High Power too but I'm really needing to get my projector on the ceiling for it to become livable around here. I'm wondering if when I'm then out of the viewing cone whether the filter will still be something I should try to use.

Bob
post #84 of 107
Quote:
Originally posted by David Barteaux
I don't see brightness uniformity problems on my X1. I tried the experiments that Mupi tried also.

If this is a problem, it is not with all X1's.;)

so I hope the world will now realize that my X1 has some defect or
piesek's X1 also has some defect (though he/she was able to fix it) :-)
post #85 of 107
Mupi,

Anytime you're logged in and you've received a new PM, you will get a popup on your screen informing you of that. Clicking on that popup will take you to your personal messages. You can also access it by clicking on "Members Area" at the top of this page and then choosing "personal messages".

Bob
post #86 of 107
piesek: I searched for "filter" I got 5 pages but didnt find your name. did you originate the thread or posted to some thread.
post #87 of 107
Try searching for "linear polarizer".
Anyway, mine is a 62mm polarizing filter. They come in 2 flavours - linear and circular - the later one I think is more expenesive.
I got mine on Ebay for $20 cdn shipped. You can also find them where photographic supplies are sold.
Once installed, display the blank black screen and slowly rotate rhe outer ring on the filter until the brighter corner "blends in"
Be accurate, as it is easy to miss the right spot.

Be aware that the filter will significantly reduce the brightness of your image, so you may end up not liking it after all.
For me it did a great job, but I think I am alot more optimistic about facts of life than you are:D

And btw, just to make it clear - I don't think the light uniformity issue on the X1 is a "defect".
I think it is simply a result of the fact that the X1 is a made in china, mass- produced consumer display device comparable to those $50 dvd players that have been sprouting out for a while now. It is not even made by Infocus but apparently by Funai Industries (or something like that)

The difference in price between X1 and those cheapo dvd players is due to different nature of the products, but they are both on the very bottom of the scale, so I totally do not expext any miracles. I would actually say that for the money the X1 is very well designed and executed.
But still it is so cheap it cannot possibly be perfect.
piesek
KS
post #88 of 107
This comment may be off topic, but I have hotspots with my month old X1. My case must be different than Mupi's because the exact location varies. I have seen it in the lower right and upper right corners (not at the same time) and my son and I were watching and he saw a hotspot, but I did not.

I attribute it to the screen and the viewers position.

I am experimenting with a foamboard. I am concerned that the High Power will have similar hot spots.

Tom
post #89 of 107
I have a Hi-Power with my X1 and have had no problems with hotspotting.

mike
post #90 of 107
Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood
piesek,

Do you think with the filter in place it's going to be necessary to also have the High Power screen gain to have enough brightness?
Bob
Bob,
Honestly I think that having both: a filter and a high power screen is a contradiction. First you are reducing the lumens with a filter and then boosting them with a high gain surface... I don't think this makes much sense...
At least that won't work for rainbows - but it might for light uniformity.
I'm not sure...
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