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Denver, CO - OTA - Page 424  

post #12691 of 17938
It could be that one or two cameras are just WS SD and they intercut them. I've seen that quite a bit. They usually do it on the odd angles or replays where they iso something.
post #12692 of 17938
No you can easily identify the SD cameras in Fox NFL broadcasts. I've noticed the issue that roller11 is talking about. For no apparant reason the whole picture, even the HD camera goes 480i for a few plays and then after a break or a replay it's back in true 720p.
post #12693 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeLV View Post

No you can easily identify the SD cameras in Fox NFL broadcasts. I've noticed the issue that roller11 is talking about. For no apparant reason the whole picture, even the HD camera goes 480i for a few plays and then after a break or a replay it's back in true 720p.

I haven't seen that except for an occasional sideline special shot or odd angle replay. Otherwise the Fox31 HD has been among the best available locally. Also, their all HD pre-game show at 10 AM each Sunday has excellent PQ and is all HD, with the occasional exception of some integrated SD w/ side brackets, like ESPN-HD does most of the time.
post #12694 of 17938
The Fox pregame show is not HD.
post #12695 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by mknoebel View Post

I watched the entire Packer/Viking game yesterday on Fox 31-1 and didn't notice that at all. As a matter of fact, I watch Fox every Sunday (though sometimes it's through D* and the Sunday Ticket) and I've never noticed that...

You aren't very observant.

Not only does the pic go fuzzy, blurry and jaggies, the sound also changes.
You can hear the announcers voices in the rear channels of Fox's
5.1, it is precisely coincident with the degradation in PQ.

With NFL games it is purely random, coming and going, having no relationship to
which camera is on at the time. For example, it happened right in the middle of a running play, while the main camera was in frame (Packers/Vikings). It stays in this poor PQ state
for a few minutes, and then back to normal. During this time, other cameras came into play,
all of them were also in this PQ state, so it has nothing to do with whichever
camera is on at the time. Sometimes it can stay in this state until the next commercial,
then after the break it is back to normal. Or, sometimes it just returns to normal at a random time before the break.

With the MLB baseball, the prob is more predictable. It is the exact same thing, only during the ALCS and NLCS, it always happened in the bottom of the seventh inning. Once in this state, it stayed until the end of the seventh, and after returning from commercial, the rest
of the game was normal. Same symptom...fuzzy blurry PQ, jaggies in diagonal
lines, and announcers voices in the rear dolby channels. Interestingly, the prob did not occur during the first WS game (I didn't watch the second game).

I called FOX and discussed this vacillation between SD widescreen and HD with Rick Wheeler, he contacted corprate FOX about it.
post #12696 of 17938
I wish I could've seen the Denver @ Giants game in HD on Sunday. DirecTV (and Zap2It also) had the wrong guide data for KCBS. They showed the (spit) Raiders. BTW, DISH had the correct data for KCBS.

Gakon,

Can you run a profile of my LOS to the Cheyenne 5-1 tower? I was wondering if it was even worth my while since I can't get RP.

Lat:
40.138146N
Long:
105.152591W

# Matt
post #12697 of 17938
Did anyone watch Medium on KUSA-HD last night. I recoreded it on my D* HDTIVO and noticed several breakups. Sometimes the audio would stay and the picture would disappear. Sometimes both would go out. I probably noticed this about 10 times throughout the show, and each instance lasting about 1 to 5 seconds.

I always record a "backup" on the other tuner...the D* KUSA SD sat feed...in case I was having reception problems. THe KUSA-HD OTA recording got so bad at the end, I had to switch over to watch the SD backup.

If it was purely reception problems, it's the first time I have had any with KUSA.
post #12698 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaco View Post

Did anyone watch Medium on KUSA-HD last night. I recoreded it on my D* HDTIVO and noticed several breakups. Sometimes the audio would stay and the picture would disappear. Sometimes both would go out. I probably noticed this about 10 times throughout the show, and each instance lasting about 1 to 5 seconds.

I always record a "backup" on the other tuner...the D* KUSA SD sat feed...in case I was having reception problems. THe KUSA-HD OTA recording got so bad at the end, I had to switch over to watch the SD backup.

If it was purely reception problems, it's the first time I have had any with KUSA.

I recorded Medium last night onto my hard disk but haven't watched it yet. I'll check it out today (Tues.) and get back to the forum, thanks for posting.
post #12699 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaco View Post

Did anyone watch Medium on KUSA-HD last night. I recoreded it on my D* HDTIVO and noticed several breakups. Sometimes the audio would stay and the picture would disappear. Sometimes both would go out. I probably noticed this about 10 times throughout the show, and each instance lasting about 1 to 5 seconds.

I always record a "backup" on the other tuner...the D* KUSA SD sat feed...in case I was having reception problems. THe KUSA-HD OTA recording got so bad at the end, I had to switch over to watch the SD backup.

If it was purely reception problems, it's the first time I have had any with KUSA.

Apparently the entire NBC network was doing that due to Ku rain fade in New York on GE's network feed.
post #12700 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by donyoop View Post

Apparently the entire NBC network was doing that due to Ku rain fade in New York on GE's network feed.

I didn't have any problems with the NBC SD sat feed. Does D* get that feed in a different way where rain fade wouldn't affect it?
post #12701 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaco View Post

Did anyone watch Medium on KUSA-HD last night. I recoreded it on my D* HDTIVO and noticed several breakups. Sometimes the audio would stay and the picture would disappear. Sometimes both would go out. I probably noticed this about 10 times throughout the show, and each instance lasting about 1 to 5 seconds.

I always record a "backup" on the other tuner...the D* KUSA SD sat feed...in case I was having reception problems. THe KUSA-HD OTA recording got so bad at the end, I had to switch over to watch the SD backup.

If it was purely reception problems, it's the first time I have had any with KUSA.

Just checked it out, problem exactly as you described.
OTA, Longmont
post #12702 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEB II View Post

So why did the Tennessee - Alabama NCAA game look so much sharper than the Broncos - Giants NFL game? Same network, different field equipment?

The sharpness of CBS NFL games shown in Denver has been consistently below average as HD football games go. Why?

Night game vs day game maybe? I didn't see the Tenn-Al game, so that's just a guess.
post #12703 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeLV View Post

The Fox pregame show is not HD.

It is on Fox31 in metro Denver. OTOH, the CBS pregame show, at least in metro Denver, is in SD.
post #12704 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by markdl View Post

Night game vs day game maybe? I didn't see the Tenn-Al game, so that's just a guess.

Both games were late afternoon/early evening, EDT.
post #12705 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattn6 View Post

Can you run a profile of my LOS to the Cheyenne 5-1 tower? I was wondering if it was even worth my while since I can't get RP.

Since I ran the wrong profile the first time, you get two of them. The first is to Cheyenne Mountain, for when one of the stations there goes high power. gkanders asked for this profile a while ago, and yours is very similar (the major obstructions being closer to CS).
I also ran the profile you requested. Again, the profiles do not include the height of the tower. You might want to see if gkanders has had any luck with either of these stations.
LL
LL
post #12706 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEB II View Post

It is on Fox31 in metro Denver. OTOH, the CBS pregame show, at least in metro Denver, is in SD.

Unless Fox31 has a locally produced pregame show in HD, I can assure you that it is not HD. Just because a show is passed in widescreen does not mean it is HD.
post #12707 of 17938
Yeah the Fox pregame show is definitely upconverted SD widescreen
post #12708 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by roller11 View Post

I don't watch Leno much, but I watched it last night (Fri., Oct. 21). It looked as
good as it did when I first got into HDTV in Aug., '03. Since that time, I rarely
watch Leno. What is your metric for judging PQ on Leno?
How is it worse now? Grainier? washed out colors? aliased diagonal lines?

The picture is notably softer now than it was before 9-2. This can be seen most often on the background buildings on the backdrop. Many of the buildings have signs and writing on them, all of which could be clearly made out before; now it's a bit harder to read them. The picture tends to pixellate more on fast action as well.
post #12709 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

The picture is notably softer now than it was before 9-2. This can be seen most often on the background buildings on the backdrop. Many of the buildings have signs and writing on them, all of which could be clearly made out before; now it's a bit harder to read them. The picture tends to pixellate more on fast action as well.

I just posed this same question to Rick Wheeler, head of engineering at
KDVR, the FOX station. I asked him how decreased bandwidth affects
PQ. His answer was the 'tiling' or 'macroblocking' would be adversely affected,
which would explain your claim of pixellation, also, my observation of the ND
game on NBC. It was very sharp, but it was more pixellated on fast motion
scenes vs CBS. Just to be clear, I asked him if decreased bandwidth would
have an affect on still or near still scenes. His response was 'no'. If a scene doesn't change from one frame to the next,
zero bandwidth is required to do MPEG-2 encoding, so decreased bandwidth would
have no effect whatsoever. In general, extra compression is used only
when the scene change exceeds the available bandwidth. This means that
Leno would not be affected at all in scenes when there is very little motion,
which contradicts your claim of softer image. Unfortunately, I have not
saved any .tp files from Leno Aug. 2003, the lettering you mention would be conclusive proof of who is correct, you or Wheeler.
Until I see proof otherwise, I would assume that all things being equal except bandwidth, the compression ratio would be the same assuming there was enough
bandwidth to service the frame to frame change.
post #12710 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

The picture is notably softer now than it was before 9-2. This can be seen most often on the background buildings on the backdrop. Many of the buildings have signs and writing on them, all of which could be clearly made out before; now it's a bit harder to read them. The picture tends to pixellate more on fast action as well.

I'm not sure using the backdrop to make PQ sharpness comparisons is a good idea. It might well be that they are using a different camera aperture which would affect depth of field and ultimately result in how sharp the background is compared to the main subject. For example, they may have lowered the lights and opened the aperture a bit which could account for the background becoming more blurred.
post #12711 of 17938
On D*, resolution is reduced prior to compression, thus reducing the motion artifacts to a tolerable level (and, as a result, refered to as HD Lite). This same technique, if applied by KUSA to make the motion artifacts more tolerable, would have the effect as described by kucharsk. We would need more info from KUSA to know this.
post #12712 of 17938
For those who are interested, Ernie Santella's latest letter in response to the Lookout Mountain tower issue is in today's Rocky.
post #12713 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by gakon View Post

Since I ran the wrong profile the first time, you get two of them. The first is to Cheyenne Mountain, for when one of the stations there goes high power. gkanders asked for this profile a while ago, and yours is very similar (the major obstructions being closer to CS).
I also ran the profile you requested. Again, the profiles do not include the height of the tower. You might want to see if gkanders has had any luck with either of these stations.

Thanks gakon!!! I will give KGWN a shot! I'll pm gkanders about local reception.

Thanks again!

# Matt
post #12714 of 17938
Nobody gets it.

But, the papers are pretty open to this topic. Why doesn't someone else write a letter about Golden trying to use Eminent Domain to remove the current towers on Lookout and leaving us all "In the Dark".
post #12715 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by gakon View Post

Since I ran the wrong profile the first time, you get two of them. The first is to Cheyenne Mountain, for when one of the stations there goes high power. gkanders asked for this profile a while ago, and yours is very similar (the major obstructions being closer to CS).
I also ran the profile you requested. Again, the profiles do not include the height of the tower. You might want to see if gkanders has had any luck with either of these stations.

Mattn6,

Your profiles do look similar to mine. I haven't moved my antenna yet, so I don't know how things will work. I'm trying to figure out if I can get KGWN from the back of my antenna (analog comes in just a little through the back, but the antenna at this point is 8' above the ground and in the garage. It will soon be at about 40' above the ground and outside. If I can get KGWN through the back, the front can be pointing at Cheyenne Mtn., and hopefully I'll be able to get something from there. I'm a little hesitant to try for fear of losing RP stations, but I may be able to get them as they'll be about 40 degrees off angle. At this point, I don't think there is anything else out there (CS) and KGWN seems to have its own issues, so I haven't gone to the trouble yet.
post #12716 of 17938
Thoughts from a sleep-deprived native Chicagoan (28 years in Colorado). How wonderful the technology growth in my lifetime. I was in grade school (there weren't any middle schools or junior highs back then) the last time the White Sox were in the WS (1959). The principal allowed those of us that had them to bring those tiny, "cheap Japanese", transistor radios to school so we could monitor the progress of the games. In those days, even all WS games were played during the day.

This week I've been sitting back in my recliner watching the Sox in widescreen HD on a 50" set w/ DD5.1 sound. Wow, we've come a long way from static-y cheap radios and fuzzy picture B&W 17" TVs to what we have now. Makes one thankful to live in this time and to live in this affluent country.

OK, enough nostalgia, I've got to go find something to rant about, while waiting for the Sox to wrap up this WS. Don't think it will be tonight though.
post #12717 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgibsoj View Post

On D*, resolution is reduced prior to compression, thus reducing the motion artifacts to a tolerable level (and, as a result, refered to as HD Lite). This same technique, if applied by KUSA to make the motion artifacts more tolerable, would have the effect as described by kucharsk. We would need more info from KUSA to know this.

This would be a question for Don Perez, top engineer at KUSA.
I'll drop him an Email, he's been very responsive in the past.
post #12718 of 17938
Ok, calling all fellow Lovelandites! I am fixing to put up my DB8 antenna and I was just looking for a little advise. I live in the Seven Lakes area of Loveland and my house faces east. I had originally thought that I would be limited to installing the antenna in the attic due to HOA rules. However, I have found that the FCC has laws against HOA anti-antenna rules, YIP-ee!! Anyway, I would like to know what would be better. I don't want to press my luck with the neighbors so I will not be erecting and super tower on top of my 2 story home. My thought was to discretely install the antenna outside possibly below a gable on either the north or south side of the house. My question is it better to focus on Fort Collins and Cheyenne or "shoot" for Denver? In addition to all that, any suggestions on amps and such?
post #12719 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by CLC29 View Post

Ok, calling all fellow Lovelandites! I am fixing to put up my DB8 antenna and I was just looking for a little advise. I live in the Seven Lakes area of Loveland and my house faces east. I had originally thought that I would be limited to installing the antenna in the attic due to HOA rules. However, I have found that the FCC has laws against HOA anti-antenna rules, YIP-ee!! Anyway, I would like to know what would be better. I don't want to press my luck with the neighbors so I will not be erecting and super tower on top of my 2 story home. My thought was to discretely install the antenna outside possibly below a gable on either the north or south side of the house. My question is it better to focus on Fort Collins and Cheyenne or "shoot" for Denver? In addition to all that, any suggestions on amps and such?

Not being a Lovelandite or Lovelander, I can't comment on location and direction (BTW, I assume you've already looked at antennaweb.org and 2150.com for their input), but I can suggest a pre-amp. No doubt that you will need a pre-amp, and a powerful one at that. The best you can do w/o going exotic is the Channel Master, Titan Series, Model 7777 (UHF/VHF). The Model 7775 is equal for UHF, but filters out VHF. So the 7777 is a safer bet for the uncertain future. The 7777 is the lowest Noise Factor pre-amp you can readily obtain in this country for a reasonable price. Low noise factor is important for locking very weak signals.
post #12720 of 17938
Sox Win! Fox loses! While the video for the WS game last night was very good, the DD5.1 audio kept dropping out on my unit, even during some commercials. The problem went away as soon as the local Fox news came on. Anyone else see this problem? My signal strength/quality meter reading never varied by more than 2 points.
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