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post #12721 of 17938
CEB II - well as a fellow "lowlander" so to speak, thank you for the good leads on pre-amps I will check into the 7777.
post #12722 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEB II View Post

Sox Win! Fox loses! While the video for the WS game last night was very good, the DD5.1 audio kept dropping out on my unit, even during some commercials. The problem went away as soon as the local Fox news came on. Anyone else see this problem? My signal strength/quality meter reading never varied by more than 2 points.

There has been a big difference in PQ from one playoff site to the next.
The games in Chcago looked bad, very grainy and fuzzy, like looking through
a glass pane coated with milk residue. The PQ from Houston was excellent,
as good as it gets from FOX. And in all the WS games, there was no vacillating
between HD and upconverted SD like there was in all the playoff games.
As to DD5.1, it has varied from one night to another.
Two nights ago, it was unstable, dropping in and out. Other nights it's been Ok.
However, I'm not the best person to judge, as normally I have only the two rear channels
connected, this because if the DD is working right, you don't hear the announcers voices
in the rear channels, only the sounds of the game. I do this so I don't have to hear Tim McCarver, I can't stand his commentary. Still, I heard changes in the rear
channels which verifies your observation .
post #12723 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by CLC29 View Post

CEB II - well as a fellow "lowlander" so to speak, thank you for the good leads on pre-amps I will check into the 7777.

I live in SW Loveland and have tried the CM7777. It made things worse for me. I would guess that I oversaturated the tuner, but I didn't really mess with it too much.

I just recently bought an FM Trap from RatShack, which seems to have helped a little. It seemed to be worth the 5 bucks.

Check out some of my other previous posts to see what you can expect to get in your area. For me, it's pretty much everything except ABC.

Good Luck!
post #12724 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEB II View Post

No doubt that you will need a pre-amp, and a powerful one at that.

Be careful out there! Most preamps have too much amplification. The CM 777* series preamps are very good(I have one), but unless you've got a very log cable run, it's more power than you'll need. All you need to cover is the line loss(2-3db per 50') and your receiver's noise factor. That's it.

So, almost every system could use a preamp(unless all of your signals are strong), and with a preamp, you'll likely need to add some inline attenuators to avoid an overload situation.
....jc
post #12725 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by TotallyPreWired View Post

Be careful out there! Most preamps have too much amplification. The CM 777* series preamps are very good(I have one), but unless you've got a very log cable run, it's more power than you'll need. All you need to cover is the line loss(2-3db per 50') and your receiver's noise factor. That's it.

So, almost every system could use a preamp(unless all of your signals are strong), and with a preamp, you'll likely need to add some inline attenuators to avoid an overload situation.
....jc

My pre-amp recommendation was based on receiving the very low power digital signals here on the Front Range in a location, Loveland, that isn't, I believe, very close to any of the broadcasting towers. For full power analog signals, even in Loveland, a pre-amp probably isn't necessary. In addition, if signal overload is problem at the receiver, a screw-on 6-db attenuator on the receiver's input should take care of the problem. With the relatively weak signals available in Loveland, it is highly unlikely that the amplifier would be overloaded.
post #12726 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEB II View Post

With the relatively weak signals available in Loveland, it is highly unlikely that the amplifier would be overloaded.

I was really talking about overloading the receiver!

CEB let's look at it this way:
100' RG-6 = about 5db attenuation
Receiver Noise = hard too tell, say 3db
CM 7775 = 26db gain

So, we've got 26 - (5 + 3) = 18db

18db too much gain at the receiver. And, yes, an attenuator should be used to cut that down.

The real problem is that some of these preamps just have too much gain. It's probably so that they can just manufacture 1 model, and they assume that the user will be using attenuators to cut the gain down.
....jc
post #12727 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by CEB II View Post

With the relatively weak signals available in Loveland, it is highly unlikely that the amplifier would be overloaded.

Overload doesn't have to come from the signal he's trying to receive. Any nearby transmitters (including LP analog stations) may cause it.

The pre-amp is not going to improve the performance of your antenna - it will only help you avoid losing the signals from your antenna over a long coax run. If it's at all practical, I would suggest taking your STB and a small TV somewhere in the general vicinity of your proposed antenna mounting location and connect the antenna to the STB with a short (25' or less) length of RG6 for testing purposes. Later, make your full cable run to the room where your HDTV is located. If you can pull in more stations with the test setup, then a pre-amp is warranted; otherwise not.
post #12728 of 17938
CEBII, mikeaco, oxothuk and TotallyPreWired thank you all for your thoughts on pre-amps the information should prove helpful. Is forum is really just and wonderful resource. I will be runnig some test this weekend.

Thank you again.
post #12729 of 17938
Well I have a 7775 with a CM4228 and if I don't use the preamp I can't get KUSA on a consistent basis. I don't currently get KCNC at all no matter what I do.

I sit on top of derby hill and still I am trying to clear another 50 feet of hill that is directly south of me. I did get a profile run by a guy (slips my mind sorry) that was running topgraphical maps.

I wish you the best of luck because it is all about location. I went and helped a friend in Greeley get his antenna installed which was the RS UHF antenna and he gets much better reception than I do. Argh......

My aaproach is that the less channels I have to amplify the better thus I choos not to amplify VHF signals which come in pretty strong in the Loveland area.

I thought I remembered that the amplification was affected by how many signals were actually coming into the amplifier.

Oh I also run the amplified signal through a diplexer into my satellite systems so I don't have to run a seperate splitter systems to all the TV's. I noticed very little performance difference when running straight to the receiver.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CLC29 View Post

CEBII, mikeaco, oxothuk and TotallyPreWired thank you all for your thoughts on pre-amps the information should prove helpful. Is forum is really just and wonderful resource. I will be runnig some test this weekend.

Thank you again.
post #12730 of 17938
Hello all,

Just started reading this thread today and it would appear that some of you are able to get OTA HD in Boulder (I'm more impressed from the Lovelanders that are able to receive it). I'm on the east side of Boulder and antennaweb says this:


* green - uhf KTVD-DT 19.1 UPN DENVER CO Testing 170° 19.8 19
* green - uhf KDEN-DT 29.1 IND LONGMONT CO 62° 18.1 29
* blue - uhf KPXC-DT 43 i DENVER CO TBD 168° 23.7 43
* blue - uhf KWGN-DT 2.1 WB DENVER CO 171° 19.6 34
* violet - uhf KCEC-DT 51.1 UNI DENVER CO TBD 171° 19.6 51
* violet - uhf KDVR-DT 31.1 FOX DENVER CO 171° 19.8 32


does this list match the "real world?"

Also, I've seen some recommendations for a CM4228. Is that all I'd need, or is there something better out there?
post #12731 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthews_rj View Post

Hello all,

Just started reading this thread today and it would appear that some of you are able to get OTA HD in Boulder (I'm more impressed from the Lovelanders that are able to receive it). I'm on the east side of Boulder and antennaweb says this:


* green - uhf KTVD-DT 19.1 UPN DENVER CO Testing 170° 19.8 19
* green - uhf KDEN-DT 29.1 IND LONGMONT CO 62° 18.1 29
* blue - uhf KPXC-DT 43 i DENVER CO TBD 168° 23.7 43
* blue - uhf KWGN-DT 2.1 WB DENVER CO 171° 19.6 34
* violet - uhf KCEC-DT 51.1 UNI DENVER CO TBD 171° 19.6 51
* violet - uhf KDVR-DT 31.1 FOX DENVER CO 171° 19.8 32


does this list match the "real world?"

Also, I've seen some recommendations for a CM4228. Is that all I'd need, or is there something better out there?

KTVD-DT, KCEC-DT, and KPXC-DT are not on the air at present, although there are rumors we may see KTVD-DT by the end of the year. KDEN-DT is a junk shopping channel.

You don't need a CM4228 to get KDVR-DT and KWGN-DT. A good indoor antenna like the Zenith Silver sensor will do just fine. And this week's Bronco game is on KDVR-DT.

The real question is whether ANY antenna (and the CM4228 is about as good as they get) will allow you to get the big three from Republic Plaza - CBS, NBC, and PBS-6. Reception for these channels is problematic for most of Boulder proper because we sit down below Davidson Mesa. My house is out to the NE of town where the view toware Denver goes along the back side of the mesa, so I am able to get the Republic stations (barely).

Location is critical, and the only way to know for sure is to try it.
post #12732 of 17938
For gakon:

Hey, gakon, when you have a moment, can you run the LOS profile from these coordinates to Republic and Lookout?

N 38.957615 W 105.12084

Thanks,
tk
post #12733 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyK View Post

N 38.957615 W 105.12084

These coordinates are nowhere near the location you have below your user name. Are they correct? If so, you and TotallyPreWired should get together, since you're less than 2 miles from him. The profiles from those coordinates are similar to his, although I don't think I ever created one to RP. Neither one looks great, but if TPW can get KMGH, anything is possible.
LL
LL
post #12734 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by gakon View Post

These coordinates are nowhere near the location you have below your user name. Are they correct? If so, you and TotallyPreWired should get together, since you're less than 2 miles from him.

No kidding! Central Denver? Ooopps.

Looks to be off Trout Creek road, closer to Divide. There does seem to be a road near these coordinates. Maybe it's a hideaway the little lady doesn't know about?
post #12735 of 17938
Greetings all. One of the posts above shows UPN "testing". That doesn't sound like a bad thing at all, perhaps UPN is on track to hit the rumored NLT end of year on the air. How about the rumored KMGH to Republic Plaza? Any half-truths, rumors, or out and out facts to share?

Off topic but worth sharing: I just spent an excellent week in Puerto Vallarta, however it was almost ruined by America West. You can read all about it at blogger.com http://awestnightmare.blogspot.com/
post #12736 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by AwesomeFloyd View Post

Greetings all. One of the posts above shows UPN "testing". That doesn't sound like a bad thing at all, perhaps UPN is on track to hit the rumored NLT end of year on the air. How about the rumored KMGH to Republic Plaza? Any half-truths, rumors, or out and out facts to share?

AwesomeFloyd, Rumor I heard from a reliable source is that KTVD should be transmitting something from RP in the next 2 weeks. Because of this I've been checking Channel 19 daily to see if I get a signal (usually in the afternoons) and so far nothing at all. If there has been any over-the-air testing going on, I have yet to see it.

As far as KMGH, your guess is as good as mine. I'm just glad for those of us who can receive their current meager signal that over the past few weeks they appear to have corrected the problem that scuttled the Broncos on MNF and then "Lost" a week or so after that.

Now a quick half-truth. This weeks "Westword" has an interesting article in it about an investigative report 9NEWS did a while back. While that is not necessarily pertinent here, what is is that it involves Jefferson County, so there are some references to the "Enormous" broadcasting tower that KUSA and 3 other stations are trying to construct on Lookout Mtn. Apparantly everything that goes on every day in any corner of JeffCo now comes back to the "Enormous" tower that LCG is trying to build. Bizarre.
post #12737 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by gakon View Post

These coordinates are nowhere near the location you have below your user name. Are they correct? If so, you and TotallyPreWired should get together, since you're less than 2 miles from him. The profiles from those coordinates are similar to his, although I don't think I ever created one to RP. Neither one looks great, but if TPW can get KMGH, anything is possible.

AND
Quote:
Originally Posted by TotallyPreWired View Post

No kidding! Central Denver? Ooopps.

Looks to be off Trout Creek road, closer to Divide. There does seem to be a road near these coordinates. Maybe it's a hideaway the little lady doesn't know about?

Thanks, gakon. I travel to Teller County often to visit my relatives who have a house there. I actually reside in Denver about five blocks east of Republic Plaza. I've found some of TPW's posts regarding his reception and observations very intriguing. So, over the last year, I've been experimenting with digital reception when I stay up in Teller Co. I also thought it might be interesting to compare his profile with ours.

On the analog side of things, reception at the mountain home from all of the Denver stations has always been very easy, except for KTVD. But, as the profiles you provided suggest, my experimentation with digital reception so far hasn't shown much promise. I will be trying more extensive, "big-gun" type measures over the coming weeks.

Thanks again!
post #12738 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by colofan View Post

Well I have a 7775 with a CM4228 and if I don't use the preamp I can't get KUSA on a consistent basis. I don't currently get KCNC at all no matter what I do.

I sit on top of derby hill and still I am trying to clear another 50 feet of hill that is directly south of me. I did get a profile run by a guy (slips my mind sorry) that was running topgraphical maps.

I wish you the best of luck because it is all about location. I went and helped a friend in Greeley get his antenna installed which was the RS UHF antenna and he gets much better reception than I do. Argh......

My aaproach is that the less channels I have to amplify the better thus I choos not to amplify VHF signals which come in pretty strong in the Loveland area.

I thought I remembered that the amplification was affected by how many signals were actually coming into the amplifier.

Oh I also run the amplified signal through a diplexer into my satellite systems so I don't have to run a seperate splitter systems to all the TV's. I noticed very little performance difference when running straight to the receiver.

It is the UHF, particularly the digital UHF channels that are tough. VHF on the front range is very strong, so don't amplify those signals. The UHF amplifier on a CM 7775 or 7777 will not pass those VHF signals, so it pretty much takes care of that issue.

I've got a 70" no-name VHF/UHF combo antenna in my attic pointed at Lookout Mountain just 10 miles away. It is now set up solely to be my analog signal antenna. VHF is very strong, even after splitting it 4 ways. No pre-amp needed. UHF is so poor that I have to use a pre-amp to get a clean signal on Fox 31 analog and channel 59. When I used this antenna for digital pickup from LM, I couldn't even lock Fox 31 digital and KWGN-DT w/o the pre-amp.

OTOH, w/ a better UHF antenna like my Winegard PR-8800, I can get a good lock on the digital broadcasts fromt the mountain w/o a pre-amp, but I still can't get a decent signal on analog 31 and 59. BTW, my coax runs are under 60 feet.

So the bottom line is that a pre-amp may help, hurt you, or do nothing at all for you. If you get all the channels you want w/o a pre-amp, don't buy one. If you want to try for some weak signal channels you can't lock, try a pre-amp. There is a good reason that antennaweb lists recommendations that include pre-amps for the harder to get channels. It is more than the length of your coax.
post #12739 of 17938
Has anyone on the west side of longmont had any luck getting CBS OTA? I had an indoor antenna in my attic and got a fairly week signal on fox and good signal on WB. Nothing else. I recently added an RCA 3022 to my attic. The signals for fox and WB are significantly improved. I also get (what I think is) Telemundo. However, I don't speak spanish so telemundo isn't terribly interesting. My real hope was that I'd be able to get CBS once I put a better antenna in the attic. However, I'm still stuck with just Fox and WB. Any suggestions?

Also, has anyone had any luck with Dish Network HD? I've heard mixed results and, according to the Comcast technician that was at my home on Friday, cable HD won't be in Longmont until next summer at the earliest. And when we do get it, he said it will only be the locals. No ESPN HD, Discovery, HBO HD, Showtime HD, etc. I'm starting to get fed up here since I was told that Longmont would have HD "soon" in 2004. Thanks.
post #12740 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by rblatchley View Post

I also get (what I think is) Telemundo.

Telefutura - not that it matters.

I take it you haven't been able to get the other Republic Plaza stations either (NBC and PBS-6)? They are usually easier to bring in than CBS since they broadcast on a lower frequency.
post #12741 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by rblatchley View Post

Has anyone on the west side of longmont had any luck getting CBS OTA? I had an indoor antenna in my attic and got a fairly week signal on fox and good signal on WB. Nothing else. I recently added an RCA 3022 to my attic. The signals for fox and WB are significantly improved. I also get (what I think is) Telemundo. However, I don't speak spanish so telemundo isn't terribly interesting. My real hope was that I'd be able to get CBS once I put a better antenna in the attic. However, I'm still stuck with just Fox and WB. Any suggestions?

Also, has anyone had any luck with Dish Network HD? I've heard mixed results and, according to the Comcast technician that was at my home on Friday, cable HD won't be in Longmont until next summer at the earliest. And when we do get it, he said it will only be the locals. No ESPN HD, Discovery, HBO HD, Showtime HD, etc. I'm starting to get fed up here since I was told that Longmont would have HD "soon" in 2004. Thanks.

I live on the east side of longmont (Pace and 17th). I get all the rep. plaza
stations with my CM4228 antenna. If you want to discuss this further, call me
and we can talk. Leave a private message and we can exchange numbers.
post #12742 of 17938
Yesterday on both the Denver/Philly and Green Bay/ Cinncy games, the transmission
kept switching between HD and SD widescreen. This has happened
on every NFL game since they started HD last year. I counted
11 such transitions in the GB game, and 15 in the Denver game. I called Rick Wheeler
at FOX and he claimed to be ignorant of this. Later, he said he contacted FOX about this,
but they have ignored the problem, neither confirming or denying their culpability.

I have no way of knowing whether the problem is at a national level, or if
it is strictly a KDVR problem. Either way, I want FOX to at the very least explain
why this happens. Predictably, their attitude is that it is easier to ignore the screw up than to fix it. This works until several people complain, and only then will they do something about it.
Since I'm apparently the only one who has complained to KDVR, I'd encourage others
to call Rick Wheeler at KDVR, 303 595 3131 and ask them to fix it.
post #12743 of 17938
[quote=roller11]Yesterday on both the Denver/Philly and Green Bay/ Cinncy games, the transmission
kept switching between HD and SD widescreen. This has happened
on every NFL game since they started HD last year. I counted
11 such transitions in the GB game, and 15 in the Denver game. I called Rick Wheeler
at FOX and he claimed to be ignorant of this. Later, he said he contacted FOX about this,
but they have ignored the problem, neither confirming or denying their culpability.
QUOTE]

I believe what you are seeing has little to do with a "switch" in their broadcast. They are using a combination of HD cameras and old stock NTSC cameras. This is one of the growing pains of the HD transition. I remember when CBS began to offer 3 games a week in HD, at least 1/3 of the broadcast was upconverted from NTSC. The same was the case with the first season of MNF on ABC. It was so bad that I wasn't terribly disappointed when they nixed MNF in HD the next season (that and the constant dropouts from their weak transmition).

The FOX transition to HD (6 or 7 games every sunday) is very expensive. They will continue to mingle HD and NTSC (SD if you prefer) until they have cap exed additional HD cams or their NTSC products are all broken and unrepairable.

-Matt
post #12744 of 17938
There is one camera they use - kind of the "coaches camera", a view from the top of the stadium, that they used to show all players on the field, that is SD. When they switch to that camera it is only 4X3. Other than that both games looked very good to me.

And yes, I was paying attention...
post #12745 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by rblatchley View Post

Has anyone on the west side of longmont had any luck getting CBS OTA? I had an indoor antenna in my attic and got a fairly week signal on fox and good signal on WB. Nothing else. I recently added an RCA 3022 to my attic. The signals for fox and WB are significantly improved. I also get (what I think is) Telemundo. However, I don't speak spanish so telemundo isn't terribly interesting. My real hope was that I'd be able to get CBS once I put a better antenna in the attic. However, I'm still stuck with just Fox and WB. Any suggestions?

I get CBS OTA, I'm over by the Safeway on Hover and 17th. You are going to have to put your antenna outside if you want any chance of CBS. Get it up as high as you can and try any location that looks like it has line of sight to RP. I also use a RS amp. No amp = no signals from RP stations for me.
post #12746 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by rblatchley View Post

Has anyone on the west side of longmont had any luck getting CBS OTA?

I'm kind of on the South side, near Pike and 287. I was finally able to pull in ch. 4 and ch. 9 yesterday, and of course, ch. 2 and ch. 31 are strong. But unfortunately, ch. 6 is still a little too weak for me to lock on.

I ended up having to use a 15-foot mast on the peak of my roof. At 10 feet, I only got ch. 2 and ch. 31, at 11 feet, I locked onto ch. 9, and when I put it at 15 feet, ch. 4 locked on. I also had to use a variable gain antenna amp. But I had to carefully adjust the gain. Too little gain = no lock and too much gain = no lock. It was very touchy!

I'll probably try again next weekend to get channel 6.
post #12747 of 17938
Quote:



I believe what you are seeing has little to do with a "switch" in their broadcast. They are using a combination of HD cameras and old stock NTSC cameras.
-Matt

No, that's not it. As I've reported repeatedly, this is NOT a camera thing.
It happens randomly, typically when the main camera is on. For example,
a HD to SD switch happened ten seconds before Mike Anderson went in for
the first touchdown. Twenty seconds later, the inevitable SD to HD switch occured.
It happened again right in the middle of a running play when the runner was being
forced out of bounds on the right sideline. The time shown on the clock was
10:11 of the first period.

Since ppl in this forum seem incapable of distinguishing SD from HD, do this:
listen to the rear speakers only of your DD 5.1, and turn the volume up
all the way. Precisely coincident
with the switch to SD, the announcers voices are heard in the rear speakers.
The volume is less than in the front speakers, but it's audible. i.e. there is a 1 to 1 relationship with this audio 'bleed over' and being in SD widescreen mode.
post #12748 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by rblatchley View Post

...I'm starting to get fed up here since I was told that Longmont would have HD "soon" in 2004.

Don't feel bad, in 2004 there was going to be OTA DTV in Denver "soon" too!
post #12749 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by mknoebel View Post

There is one camera they use - kind of the "coaches camera", a view from the top of the stadium, that they used to show all players on the field, that is SD. When they switch to that camera it is only 4X3. Other than that both games looked very good to me.

And yes, I was paying attention...

It amazes me that you can't tell SD widescreen from HD, even when you are looking for it.
post #12750 of 17938
Quote:
Originally Posted by roller11 View Post

It amazes me that you can't tell SD widescreen from HD, even when you are looking for it.


Just a point of reference here -- you seem to be the ONLY one who is seeing this. I watch football on Fox every Sunday and have never noticed what you are seeing, nor has anyone else here...
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