Denver, CO - OTA - Page 22  

JohnJr,
Combining antennas can be tricky and yield unpredictable results. It certainly won't hurt to try it but to do it correctly you'll need a splitter, which is a 3-4dB loss. In all likelihood the added gain by having two antenna's will be offset by the loss of the splitter. Also, if the signals are not in phase between the two antennas it may look like multipath to the tuner, which is obviously no good for either the analog or digital stations.

Alternately, you could try a UHF/VHF band separator/combiner, which is a filter of sorts (this device has less loss than a splitter). The way this would work is to connect the UHF only antenna to the UHF port on the UHF/VHF band separator/combiner and connect the UHF/VHF antenna to the VHF port (effectively filtering out the UHF signals from the combo antenna). The output of the device would then feed your tuner. This means you would use the VHF/UHF antenna only for VHF and the UHF only antenna for UHF frequencies. The UHF/VHF band separator/combiner has less than 1/2 dB loss, which is far less than a splitter (and a splitter has no filtering capabilities).

I agree with Geof. I doubt that you would see any benefit at all from running them in line as separate units. I don't really remember, but were you not able to mount on the roof?

With the problems you have had in obtaining the low power signals, I would try that approach.

Since we have so many new folks posting here lately, here are some suggestions on improving the signal and the ability to lock on the low power ones.

Use good quality cabling, shielded RG-6 for example.

Keep the run length short if possible ( I know this is impossible if your theater is in the basement and the antenna is on the roof, so it's just a suggestion ).

Do not use splitters, combiners, etc. that will serve to weaken the signal further.

There are many threads that indicate that using line amplifiers and the like have actually worsened the signal, so try without them first.

If possible, mount as high as you can. Inches can make the difference as Geof has stated.

So, bottom line, if you are struggling to pick up the signal from 17 and 35, try and have a single dedicated line from the antenna to the receiver or HDTV in an integrated set. If you have a strong ( relatively ) signal, split, amplify, etc. to your hearts content. We should all be so lucky .

Jeff

KCNC said that they've fixed the buzz and center channel problem. Post here if that's not the case. They said it should have been fixed by the showing of The Young and the Restless. The sound dropouts and freezups that we had last night were a result of the engineers tweaking and resetting things.
It looks like all of the engineers are paying attention to the posts here. The person I talked to mentioned that they are reading posts from the AVS Forum.

Well I cant say if the buzzing on the HD feed is fixed or not, but all afternoon the standard digital feed has been pixellating like crazy again as it was up until the last day or so.

I could probably receive this picture then....[tongue-in-cheek mode off]

I'm sure they'll get this fixed as soon as they can. I'd be willing to place a small wager they're having fun with the new digital equipment in the KCNC Engineering Dept these days. At least they'll be well up on the learning curve when they finally get high power facilities....

Has anyone noticed if they have a lipsync issue? KDVR-DT is really bad on that score while KRMA-DT is quite good (for me at least)....(I'm not one of the "lucky 6" and have never seen KMGH-DT so I have no first-hand knowledge on their apparently intermittent lipsync problems).

17 used to be really bad. They've cleaned it up some though recently. Even at that though theres still some nights where I notice it quite easily on my 6000 while not seeing it to speak of on my Mitsu when A/B'ing.

Meanwhile I sit here in the sun and "balmy" temps again, watching what were my daybreak SS readings on 35 and 17... of 100 and 44..dropping down to 65 and 24.

Thanks for the suggestions, guys... I think I will try taking the UHF only antenna up on the roof with a new stretch of RG-6 cabling and give that a go. (can anyone say walkie talkies? :-)

I think it's against my HOA (although aren't we protected from them for OTA reception?) to mount it up there so I was trying the crawl-space first. However, nobody has yelled about my two dishes that I have mounted so if it works on the roof I will certainly mount first and see if they yell later.

-John

That is weird Dan...
Does anyone know if the stations are changing power levels during the daytime?
Maybe you have some sort of mechanical connection problem...could something in your setup be changing with temperature?? One thing you probably don't know is how much margin you have with KRMA-DT since the meter pegs out at 100. It could be 200 dropping to 101 and you'd never know it.....

I dunno, I could even make it weirder by mentioning that when it comes to 32, which admittedly my antenna isnt pointed at... it works just the opposite. When the sun goes down and it gets cold...then I *lose* that one down to 18 or so SS wise, but during the day it's up in the mid 60's. I dont care about that station though so it doesn't really matter to me.

Actually until 35 came on board it all kind of made a little sense. Pointed at downtown, 18 works great, and 17 doesnt for obvious reasons.. but it working well some nights seeming reasonable.

32, well again, not pointed in that direction, so not thinking much about it either. But now 35 which should in alot of ways mimick 18, and does at night..also changing drastically during the daylight hours. But I dont know, maybe thats cause of 35 tweaking right? Yet for some reason I kinda doubt it. Now on a cloudy icky day none of this is nearly as pronounced. It's weird

Yep reception is weird,
On cloud free mornings KMGH sometimes drop to 40% for me, on a fully clouded day I get 65%. My norm is 52% for winter 44% for summer(probably because of the leaves on the trees). I'm sure all of these numbers would increase if I mounted my UHF only RS antennae outside. I think weak signals are effected by relative humidity. It sort of sucks to setup Replay TV to record NYPD blue when I'm out of town. I later watch it and find out that the signal breaks up every 10 minutes because of a weather anomaly.

In anycase, it feels good to be able to pick and choose what HD I want to watch. Instead how it's been over the past year, "If it's the minute by minute account of growing a rubber tree plant", and it's in HD, I'm watching it!

I got home and tried Ch35 and yeap, I did get a picture but it was severely breaking up. But, sometime between 4:30 and 5:00 the picture cleared up. It's looking good - no breakups in the last 15 or 20 minutes and just one sound hit (during a commercial). My Preamp is indicating DD5.1 and the sound is fine. The signal level is back up to 51+.

My problem is very unique.... Before CH35 was on air I could get readings of 85 to 90 on 18-1 on my DTC-100 receiver, now the readings on 18-1 are in the 20's sometimes 30's where the readings for 35-1 are in the 80's???? I did no adjustments to my antenna wonder if the 2 signals are interfering ?

Any suggestions using a stealth antenna no amplification .

Keith

Dan,

I'm seeing the same thing with my signal levels, just not with the variance you're seeing. 17, 18 and 35 come vary about 5% in signal quality with daytime being lower than night. I'm going to call Owen Smith at KMGH tomorrow to ask him how the process is going to pass the 5.1 audio. I'll ask him if KMGH lowers their transmission power during the day.

Mark,

On my 6000 the numbers dont sound as drastic as the ones I've been quoting off my Mitsu because of the way the scales work. But the phenomenon remains the same on both.

My 6000 always shows about 85% for 18. But 35 goes from 80 to 65 night to day and 17 goes from about 57 to something around the mid 40's without lock. A constant 50% being the general threshold for a solid lock at all on the 6000 for any station in my experience.

Speaking of 17, I see that the -2 feed is messed up tonight trying to watch the bowl game... good enough SS but a bunch of green squares, while 17-1 is looking fine.

I just checked,
No center channel. I only have sound coming from front left and front right. Center works on everychannel except 35.1. Can everyone that has a dolby digital receiver check the center channel.

Greg,
No center channel here either - just the L&R fronts (I didn't put my ear up to the speakers earlier). Sounds like they're patching the L&R Stereo NTSC audio channels into the L&R Front DD channels.....The preamp is definitely in AC3 mode though. Every now and then I experience an audio hit and the sound mutes while my preamp switches to DPL and then back to DD. Fortunately that isn't happening very often.

Oh, and no lip sync issues .... yeah ....

Keith, your problem is curious. Perhaps you could call KRMA and discuss it with Bud Rath (if anyone can shed some light on this it would be him).

If anyone talks with either KRMA or KCNC Engineering perhaps you can ask them about the antenna setup on the Republic plaza - how far apart are their antennas, do they "block" one another and if so in which directions....

I'm speculating but I suspect it's normal to have better signal levels in the evening hours (less atmospheric noise would mean better Carrier to Noise ratio). If one of the Station Engineers reads this and quits laughing maybe you could enlighten us (me).

Hello All,

I am also not receiving the center channel and I am locked on DD on Channel 35-1.

Are any of you seeing a "jumpyness" or strobe effect on 17-1 during the game. In particular, there seems to be some strobing effect on the longer shots as the play is moving down the field. There seems to be no strobing on the close up shots of the players. BTW, I called Fox today to inquire about the horrendous lip sync problem and apparently, they don't see it there. (yea, right).

Thanks

Doug

Hi guys, just got back from the "Disaster in the Desert" known as the Fiesta bowl. Haven't had time to read any posts, did I miss anything????


I turned on CBS and it appears to be OK here. I have not had time to check the sound or anything else, but I do receive a picture with sound. Currently watching Leno and need to unpack, so I will probably test drive CBS tomorrow! Glad to see they made it on the air. I will go back and read the posts, but did they get on the air in 2001?

Jm,

Yeah, they were on air the night of the 30th with horrendous pixellation and sound problems. Gradually it got better during the day Monday the 31st, although the pixellation was still an issue. The Y&R was broadcast in HD at 11:00am on the 31st, marking the first (that I'm aware of) HD that we saw off of 35. Since then, intermittent audio problems and the picture is improving (less pixellation).

I also had problems with 17-2 tonight - decent signal, audio, no picture.

Sound problems tonight for me: I didn't have any center channel sound coming from any of the local dtv stations tonight - including PBS. I had to engage DPL to get any sound out of my center channel for all of the stations. Not that huge of a deal, but I did find it very odd.

Dan - my signal probably doesn't vary as much as yours does because I'm quite a bit closer to the transmitters. Just a guess, but it makes sense to me. On my 6000, 50% signal seems to be the stable/nonstable threshold for me as well. Fortunately, I usually get 17 at least at 58% and usually around 60% these days.

It wasn't a pretty come from behind victory like John E. used to do but yeah, they made it - technically speaking.

My signal level is around 65 now.....I am definitely experiencing the "DP1 syndrome" () on DT 35 but DT 18 remains fairly consistent at 93.....

It looks like the KCNC Engineering crew did a bang up job. The signal has been fairly stable this evening as has the sound and no Lip Sync issues! Way to go guys.....

Note: After digesting some of the comments made about KCNC and my own comments (posted yesterday) I want to clarify my position. I am still convinced that the majority of the LCG stations are using the Lookout situation as a convenient excuse to delay their digital implementation. Whether that is true or not is subject to debate and speculation but I'm also quite confident that the Engineering Depts. within these stations are very frustrated over the whole situation. I do not "hold them to blame" so to speak. So, while I may have no respect or regard for some of the station management (who are, IMO, clearly dragging this process out to their advantage) I do not wish to impugn their Engineering staffs. To that end, I still despise most of the LCG management but think it's only fair to say KCNC Engineering did a bang up job on the Low Power setup.

Then again, maybe I'm just an Engineer siding with other Engineers

Thanks Geof I will inquire with Bud about location of antennas on Republic Plaza to see if the antennas are interfering at all.

Keith

Yes, I am aware that channel 80 is the national PBS feed. Strange as it may seem, my DTC100 tends to remap exactly opposite of everyone else's system. 90% of the time, I show 80-3, displayed as "PBS1DT" instead of 18-1, -2, or -3. Signal strength runs in the mid 80s, the pictures are gorgeous.

Channel 18 has disappeared from my system. And I am still not seeing useable signal from 35-1, or -2. Isn't digital television fun!

But maybe it is my fault.

I hereby admit that, in additon to feeding my DTC, I am guilty of running three analog TVs from the same roof antenna, and that my 80" UHF pointed toward downtown is wired together with the VHF aimed at Lookout. Just lazy I guess.

So Monday, when the snow is gone and the temp hits close to 50, I'll climb up on the roof and run a dedicated RG6 from the UHF to my DTC 100 and tweak it for position. That will likely help. I have 32 from a bowtie into "Antenna B" on the DTC, running about 72-75. But who cares about 32? For analog stations, I'll run the feed from by BUD.

Thanks guys!

Whew!

Well I finally got through all of the posts since I left on Sunday. It was about 4 or more pages worth, and I was only gone for 4 days. Sounds like a good time was had by all. As for me, I preferred laying in the sun in Tempe, and my trip was great except for about a 4 hour stretch on Tuesday.

A few questions and comments after digesting all the posts.

I did watch a bit of Letterman after Leno last night (I watch the east coast Leno feed so it is over by 10:30), and all seems well on 35 at my place. I noticed the same missing audio center channel you all have commented on, and also did not get anything from the rears (although knowing me I was tired enough I probably forgot to turn on the amp for the rears). The picture was stable and the sound fine for the short time that I watched, although I did not get to see any HD, only upconverted material. I mostly use a Unity Motion receiver, which is not a 'typical commericial' HD receiver (as it does MPEG satellite transmissions as well), and it does not have a 'quality level' meter on the OTA side. As a result I can't comment on the available power level like many of you can. The bottom line anyone up north this way, is that the signal quality is adequate here in Boulder if you work at it and use a good antenna.

My congratulations belatedly to KCNC for finally getting on the air, especially since I have been (and still am) one of their most outspoken critics. I agree with Geof's comments, you must separate the engineering staff from the management. I do believe the engineering staff is excited and eager to do HD in this area and is probably thrilled to be on the air. I also believe management is not committed to HD and probably only did this due to the pressure from CBS national, competition from CBS on Dish, and finally from some limited outside pressure from the FCC. I will NOT be satisfied or complimentary of management at KCNC until they are on the air full power from Lookout. The LCG is supposedly preparing what they expect to be a 'bullet proof' application this time to counter the opposition from (S)CARE. I will not let slide the fact that they could have done the application 'right' the first time and been on the air by now. They simply did not do their homework the first time, it saved all of them (except KRMA which came right away on the air anyway from town) a ton of money at our expense. Like most of you I have spent a lot of money on extra satellite receivers and other items just to be able to watch network HD from other sources. It has been and still is a royal pain.

Glad to see all the new posters on this thread and welcome to them all. Remember, even though they don't post, many of the engineers and also management of the local networks, as well as members of (S)CARE read this thread, although they usually don't post and don't admit it. Your comments are noted and the more numbers we have here, the more they pay attention. I would like to encourage other lurkers out there to also sign in with some comments, even if it is just to let the stations know you are watching.

A few questions to throw out.

Geof, what ever happened with your TV, last I read you had a dark picture? Did you find the problem or have to get it repaired?

JohnJr. Did you manage to get KCNC yet? It sounded like you get KRMA but not KCNC which seems strange.

Well, amazingly enough, my wife is excited to see the HD of CSI tonight on 35. She absolutely loves the show and before now, couldn't care less if something was on in HD or not. Given the choice, she would throw out the HDTV and get more DIRECTVO's. She can't live without those. Hopefully, the signal tonight is beautiful and the sound in sync.

Jeff

The wife should really enjoy it Jeff. CSI is a great demo of HD. I've seen it that way for over a year now. We probably will know more about what to expect from KCNC in a little while once Y&R comes on, to see if they have the HD feed pretty well sorted out.

John,

I was unable to give it another try last night. You're right in that I receive channel 18 w/o any problem at all and have ever since I got my Dish 6000 w/OTA. I consistently get somewhere around 75 to 85% signal strength on KRMA DT18.

I have tried now a total of maybe three times to pick up anything on 35 and have failed. I would see blips on my Dish 6000, sometimes up to as high as 70% signal strength, but then they would immediately dissappear and I would have 0 signal strength.

I used my Garage mounted combo unit uhf/vhf (the one I use for KRMA) and turned it back and forth and like I say, just blips on 35. Then I tried the 3' UHF only antenna from inside the family room where the 6000 is and while I could tune 18 at 80% or so, nothing on 35.

All of my attempts have been during daylight hours so far, and it's possible engineers were tweaking or something, but I am stymied as to why I can receive 18 so strong and virtually nothing at all on 35.

I will be trying again ASAP.

-John

JohnJr.
Good luck. Have you checked for grounding problems and loose connectors and things like that? It might be worth the time just to open and re-tighten each of the cables and connectors that you are using just to be sure.

The CBS-HD net feed still has DD5.1 audio problems. But the video is pretty solid.

Also the video switching at the break going into it was pretty abrupt with some loud audio pops and a nice still of the Guardian guy for the females HD enthusiasts... i guess!!!

Well I'd be the first to admit that I only know enough about the technical end of this to be dangerous but I'm not so sure that the audio problem doesnt have something to do with the 5.1 flag always being active.

I've seen the CBS HD feed for along time from various stations, Seattle, Boston and N.Y. and never have any of them lit up my 5.1 light since for one thing the network HD feed is only DD 2.0 to my knowledge. And those stations have never lit up 5.1 on any of their upconverts either for that matter.

Just a guess, but prolly doesnt mean spit.

Dan,

I had the Expressview for a few months last year, but only really got into CSI this year. I did see it once last year and was very impressed, but my wife has not seen it previously. Now that she is a fan, this might just do the trick.

Jeff