Is the CRT dying? - Page 2  

Q why do you suppose Boo got shot?

I've spent many years pondering that question. Do you have the answer?

YAUT

--Jerome

I hope your right because there are more turntables on the market today than ever before, ranging from $300. Music Halls to Rega, VPI, Michelle, Nottingham, Linn, and dozens of others all way up to $30K models. It would be great if CRT died in a such a fashion. I can just see it now, a CRT PJ designed and built with only video in mind . Sporting 16:9 tubes and capable of 2160P, easily able to project on 20 foot screens. It can HAPPEN:D

Now here's a person that understands what it's all about!

For industrial use, CRT's died at least 4 yearts ago. Other than having maintained a large supply of good used CRT projectors, that death had NOTHING to do with Home Theatre. Believe me when I say that you tubes will be burned up before CRT completely dies.

Bruce

P.S. Who or what is Boo anyway?

While this might not be the best analogy it will get my point across:

Digital cameras are getting better and better as advances in CCD technology allows for higher resolutions. And ink-jet printers are closing in on "photographic" quality.

I haven't seen or heard of professional photographers dumping film for digital as of yet. While it is close, it isn't now, maybe ever, going to match film for gradient reproduction of an image.

Setting up a "digital" darkroom is also easier than working with chemicals. Fast adjustment, instant results, and the ability to redo the process in the blink of an eye. Compare that to the "Art more than science" approach to chemical darkrooms.

For myself, the level of detail is getting close enough to forget about film entirely but that's my personal opinion. For anything smaller than 8x10 printing I am happy with what digital technology can provide. But I also understand that under close scrutiny a decent 35mm (Or better) film camera is going to make ANY digital camera look "digital". There is no way around it.

My home theater provides me with a decent image that can be a pain to "develop", especially when changes call for a drawn out process. But when I am done I am never ashamed to admit I am using "old" technology. Especially when the newer stuff still shows the limits of digital reproduction.

If the image ain't moving, I can see the benefits of digital. For everything else, give me the dinosaur.

But that's me.

If you think that Belief , or Thought or Feel isnt real because it isn't quantifiable, your on the wrong track. As HT folks thats what we sell. Dreams and feelings. Trust me as long as people like me believe that CRT"S look better theyll still be there. Just like analog music. We may not be in the majority, but just because something is popular doesnt make it right. Look at Bush, he's popular but is he right????????

It seems to me, that however it's expressed, most everyone appears to be in agreement about the "reported" death of CRT. It's just like I originally said, when the digital technology, as it relates to Home Theatre, exceeds the quality of CRT, you won't have to ask if CRT is dead, you'll know it.

Bruce

I find it fascinating how EVERY thread here asking if CRT is "dying" turns into endless posts about how CRT is still better than digital. Unfortunately, that has very little to do do with the question. The answer is that yes, it is dying. For God sakes, what is so horrible about admitting that for some of you? When 99.9% of the market for something has become used, and new projector sales are at a virtual standstill, it's pretty safe to say the technology is dying. Will you still be able to get parts for several years? Sure, probably for about 10 years max. Are one or maybe two companies still producing new CRT projectors (and to fulfill contract agreements with governments)? Sure.

And as far as the turntable analogies go, it's a bad one. Turntables are easily manufactured with little capital. Manufacturing a new CRT projector requires massive amounts of capital which is why once Barco stops making them, and once VDC runs out of parts to make them, it's over. Which is probably within 3 years and maybe sooner.

CRT owners have probably got about 10 years where they will be able to obtain parts for *some* projectors from enterprising individuals like Curt and Tim. Which puts you in a pretty good position to wait for digital to achieve higher levels of performance and bang for the buck before jumping ship.

BTW, I have one simple challenge for anyone that wants to tell me I'm wrong. Point me to 3 threads here within the last 6 months where a person is posting about the NEW CRT projector they bought. Not a Tim Martin rehab, a NEW projector.

QQQ
This is a problem cause it's gonna take more than 10 years for digital to catch up. Then we'll all be forced into substandard video.
Steve

QQQ,
If you told me that my wife is soooo old but I could put her right next to any young chic you could come up with and she was obviously so much better looking than any of them ( even you would agree) then I might discuss how great looking she is rather than just agreeing that she's old :D


Art

Now there's two great answers from two of my favorite posters! But Steve, I once again have to remind you who the fisherman is here :D.

Well, we have to define what "dying" is. If sales of new units reflects life then yes, CRT is dying. However, in the world of CRT you have 10 year old units still alive and kicking, providing aspects of image aesthetics that newer digital projectors can't beat. Many CRT sets are finding new life in the transition from boardrooms and lecture halls to home theaters. You can account for "dying" from an industrial standpoint or a technological standpoint. Industrially, CRT projectors aren't selling anywhere near the volume of digital projectors. Technologically though, CRTs still have advantages which cater to the videophile (or the nearly broke college student!) :D

When I buy my next projector I will buy whatever provides the best overall picture for the money. There is no doubt in my mind that the next projector I will buy will be a CRT projector. So that is called dying? Well, if calling it dying means that used CRT projectors will cost even less, well then I'm all for that. But if we decide that we gotta follow saying "CRTs are dying" with a wink or a nod or secret handshake. :D

Hey Sony and NEC, please keep those inferior digitals coming to help keep driving down the used CRT prices! Wait, scratch that... how about you both pool your resources and try making a digital that gives us the contrast, black levels, and shadow detail of what you both were making 5 to 10 years ago. Oh yeah, and make it at least somewhat affordable too. :D When all that happens, CRT will be dead. It's not a question of if it will happen. Instead it is a question of when. The industry is hard to predict.

TICK TOCK IT HAS BEEN OVER 20 YEARS
AND DIGITAL IS STILL NOT AS GOOD
AND EVERY YEAR WE HEAR THE SAME
THING WAIT TILL NEXT YEAR OR WAIT 5 YEARS
I BELIEVE BOTH CRT AND LAMP DRIVEN DIGITAL
TECHNOLOGY WILL DIE AT ABOUT THE SAME TIME
WHEN A NEW TECHNOLOGY COMES ALONG
THAT WILL HAVE NO BULBS TO REPLACE
OR TUBES TO CHANGE EVERY 6-15,000 HOURS


XANATOS

I've read some threads lately by people who actually claim to prefer digital projectors to CRT. They say that the loss in black level is more than made up for them by the increase in brightness. Does this suggest that "sustandard video" is maybe in the eye of the beholder? Or that these things are a matter of personal preference? Frankly, the very notion is rather disconcerting to me, as I would be much happier if everyone thought that what I like was the absolute best bar none, such that everyone would constantly assure me that my projector choice confirmed by wisdom and intelligence, and also established that anyone who chose differently is a complete fool.

xanatos, digital is not just one technology. You're probably right that digital has been around in the form of LCD for about 20 years - and is also IMO the weakest digital performer. DLP and LCOS are very young technologies and are only about 5-7 years old. I can assure you that CRT looked pretty horrible the first 5-7 years it was around and in fact much, much longer. Only later did it become capable of throwing a stunning picture. And no I'm not admitting that digital looks horrible. So to say that digital is 20 years old and hasn't caught up yet and therfore is never going to just doesn't hold water.

QQQ
i am not saying current digital projectors
look horrible not even the new lcd projectors
at least not the ones i have seen lately

but each technology has its own inherent
limitations
we all know what they are
i need not list them
and i myself would rather live with the ones
crt projection has

but one fine day a new tech will come along
that will whoop both

XANATOS

If you know what the inherant limitations of DLP and LCOS are, I'd love to hear about them. There is research currently under way working on methods to improve contrast on those two technologies to greater than 10:000:1. With no limit in sight for resolution. Not to mention a host of other improvements.

QQQ,

Black. Doug

i have never seen a lcos projector
but the dlp projectors
are not exactly over burdened with Shadow detail:(



XANATOS:cool:

I don't think Xanatos is saying that it will never happen. He has many times said it will happen. Instead, he has stated in the past that while it will happen, he doesn't think it will be lamp-driven.

It is silly to say that CRT is dead when it currently still is the leading technology in overall image aesthetics. And 5 to 7 years is much older in today's age of fast-paced technology than it was in the 70s when CRT front projection was appearing. You really can't compare the first 20 years of "digital" front projection to the first 20 years after "CRT" front projection apples to apples. Hence, I think Xanatos's point of, it's been 20 years and still no cigar, is valid.

I think the problem with CRT that has caused this so-called "dying" is its much smaller profit potential compared to digital projection systems of today, many of which a well trained monkey could setup. They'd rather sell you a projector that lasts 3 years instead of 10 years. They'd rather sell you a projector that is less complicated and can be more easily setup and replaced. We have yet to see a CRT "death" from a CRT throwing a poorer picture than a digital in the confines of most home theater applications.

Adequately redefine any phrase or alter the meaning of a question and you can bend the answer to be truthfully anything you wish to hear or say.

Agreed Doug. But do you really think it matters if absolute black level on a CRT is better than digital as long as contrast ratio and black levels improve on digital by a significant margin? If a starfield looks like a starfield, isn't that what's important?

William Phelps measured a Sony G-90 at 8000:1 contrast. When a digital projector starts to approach that contrast ratio (and probably much sooner), black will look black even in the most demanding scenes. And if you want more black, you'll be able to throw an ND filter on.

And before someone points out that contrast and black level are two different things, yes, but they are intimately related and one of the ways contrast will be improved on digital projectors is by further by reducing stray light and therefore improving black level and contrast.

here is a nice companey selling new crt projectors
http://www.avxi.com/Products/Krystallos/Krystallos.html

XANATOS

ok in answer to your post
as of right now crt is a long
way from dead

QQQ
no it would not matter
at least not to me
i watch tv with my eyes
not light meters
when a digital comes
along that does great
blacks and Shadow detail
i will buy it

PROVIDING I CAN AFFORD IT OF COURSE


XANATOS

It's incredible that it has been over two years since this thread. Time passes quickly but what has changed ?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&threadid=7764

I guess it is true we are getting closer but when will we be there ? The speculation was that Qualia was it, but is it ? Please , again ,do not take this as a defense of CRT but an honest question that deserves but an honest answer.

I think the fact that we don't have that answer and statements like the one Guy made that CRT's demise is premature , add spice to these threads. CRT is like a prize fighter who can whip everyone but loses his title when he goes to prison. The vacant crown is filled by also rans who pale in comparison.

Art