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Signal Processing on Sony HDTVs - Page 3  

post #61 of 176
8/28/03 at 12:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by montreal
The Genesis chip is the actual DVI decoder chip. It only connects to the video 7 input, the DVI connector. It converts whatever arrives in an encrypted digital form to analog. Only HD formats are converted, 1080i and 720p. Neither 480i nor 480p are HD formats and neither will ever be transmitted over a DVI wire.

If you have a DVD player with a DVI output, then the player will rescale the numeric image from the disk to 1080i (or possibly 720p - a bad choice for CRTs because a subsequent conversion to 1080i is required) HD format and also do a pseudo encryption.
One minor correction on the above, Montreal. The DVI input can handle 480p just fine too.

The DVI input on Sony TVs conforms to the EIA-861 standard, and I'm pretty sure that specification includes most or all of the ATSC formats currently in use, including 480p, 720p, and 1080i. (It will also support HTPC variations on these provided the timings conform to one of the standard ATSC modes.) My personal experience using the 480p DVI mode on the Samsung 931 DVD player, and 720x480p modes on my DVI HTPC confirms this as well. 480p via DVI works fine.

Perhaps some of my earlier remarks regarding the upconversion of 848x480p to 540p caused some confusion on this.

DVI can also be used to transmit a variety of other kinds of signals including VESA computer modes like 1024x768, and 1280x1024. Most HDTVs do not support these modes though, and wouldn't know how to display them. Aside from the differences in timings, resolutions, and HDCP support, the VESA computer modes and the EIA-861 HDTV modes seem to work pretty much the same. Both are essential just digital RGB. So most HDTVs are really just glorifed dual- or multi-scan computer monitors, with a few different trimmings here and there.

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post #62 of 176
8/28/03 at 1:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by DNINE
It would seem that the multiple conversions are the problem with the *A
signal or how good the processor that is doing each conversion is-
a big issue. What I do not understand is if the signal is *D and get's
converted X amount of times that signal should always be your best signal
( and best quality PQ) a *D signal is not subject to change 1s and 0s are and will always be that no matter how many conversion this goes thru unless the same rule applies as with the *A conversion what kind of processor is doing each convert still then it could not remain a true *D signal. I understand most of this would not apply to CRT'S but what am I missing? or not I also know I am on page 2 and you guts are on page 2002 or 2003 for ADU, but i am trying.
Montreal may be able to answer this better. But I'll take a stab.

If the 1080i is coming from the DVI input, then the DVI decoder on the Sony TV converts the incoming digital RGB signal to analog up front. In the normal (pre-bypass) circuit path this analog signal is then converted back to a digital signal in the MID/DRC circuits. It then is converted back to analog for display on the CRT. In addition to these three phases of conversion (D/A->A/D->D/A) there are host of different "sweetening" and transformation processes that can be applied while the signal is in the digital MID/DRC circuit. Look at all the dfferent options in the service menu associated with these circuits and you can get some idea on this.

The HDPT fix seems to re-route 540p/1080i, bypassing the MID/DRC functions and eliminating two phases of conversion (A/D->D/A), so that there's only the single up front D/A conversion on 540p/1080i from a DVI input. And as Montreal said, the TV seems very good at performing this single D/A conversion, probably better than most external STBs or DVD players.

After this initial D/A conversion, 1080i basically seems to follow the same path through the TV's circuits regardless of whether it originated via the DVI or YPbPr component inputs. Since the HDPT 1080i bypass seems to occur after the initial DVI D/A conversion, it should apply to basically any 1080i signal fed to the TV, regardless of what input is used. So it should "improve" the PQ of 540p/1080i from either a component or DVI source.
post #63 of 176
8/28/03 at 1:54am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by woodrow
Man. What happens if the service tech did the HDPT fix with NOTHING in the RF input? He in no way had RF selected or anything in the input. He was watching up-converted 1080i with NOTHING in the RF input when he switched it.
Before I ran across the post on using the RF input, I also switched HDPT while 540p/1080i was being displayed on my 34XBR800. I'm afraid I have a rather bad habit of not looking before I leap. :) But that is also why I could tell there was such a difference. So far (knock wood) it doesn't seem to have done any damage. But I wouldn't really recommend that anyone else try it, unless for some reason it's specified for their particular model. Better safe than sorry.

If you don't start to notice any unusual problems, I wouldn't worry about it. If you do, then I would think that Sony should take responsiblity for it.
post #64 of 176
8/28/03 at 2:36am
Your not going to believe this but I have developed a small bright blue area near the lower left hand corner of the set but thought this might be my receiver. Now I'm wondering. Noticed SINCE the fix.
post #65 of 176
8/28/03 at 2:45am
Thread Starter 
Maybe they'd swap it for a 910. :)
post #66 of 176
8/28/03 at 2:50am
wouldn't I be getting a smaller 16x9 area plus a smaller 4:3? Also could be other problems with this ie. other family viewers. What about trying another 40? This could also be a pain. I just dealt with Ultimate E. forever even getting them to "kinda fix the thing".Going back wanting a replacement would be fair but a crappy chore.
post #67 of 176
8/28/03 at 3:00am
Thread Starter 
I was mostly kidding. Sorry for the bad joke. It could just be some magnetic interference, or perhaps some slighty different "character" in the bypassed 1080i. CRTs are subject to a fair variety of anamolies.

You might try moving the TV or other electronic devices near it, and degaussing via the power switch to see if that makes a difference. There's some good info on this, and other ideas here: TV and Monitor CRT (Picture Tube) Information
post #68 of 176
8/28/03 at 3:05am
Bad joke aside, your help is much appreciated and I'll keep looking for your posts on this. Somebody has to sleuth out what Sony is up to here!
post #69 of 176
8/28/03 at 3:07am
Oh, what do you mean degauss using the power switch? You mean just turn it off for awhile?
post #70 of 176
8/28/03 at 7:24am
Oh, what do you mean degauss using the power switch? You mean just turn it off for awhile?


I was thinking about this after Reading a link that ADU provided. It does seem to be the case, if you listen as the TV is being turned on it does
sound like there is some kind of Degauss, it makes sense that this would
be incorporated in the Set. Or not.
post #71 of 176
8/28/03 at 7:59am
ADU,
DNINE,
XROX,
WOODROW,

I concur with everything ADU has said on my behalf in the last 18 hours.

XROX,

Sorry, I did not mean to understate the advantages of displaying a 480i converted to 960i or a 480p signal at 31 khz and not at 33.75 khz. I was just looking to see if one scan rate could do all the jobs.

We know that incoming 480i always goes through the DRC chip to become 960i or 480p.

The HDPT change allows incoming 1080i to bypass the DRC chip.

What can we assume about incoming 480p?

Did it always use the bypass circuit regardless of the setting of HDPT.

Is so, this could explain why we never saw a vertical scrolling bar in 480p.

If not, then if 480p was going in and out of the DRC chip without changing format, for there not to be a scrolling bar at 480p, the DRC would have to be doing with 480p what it was not able to do at 1080i, that is lock the scan frequency coming out of the DRC to the scan frequency going in to the DRC. We see a PLL (phase locked loop) circuit connected to the DRC chip.
Maybe this PLL is optimized for 480p/480i and not for 1080i nor 720p.
The DRC would then have to fabricate the 33.75 khz sync with a slight error.
post #72 of 176
8/28/03 at 8:22am
montreal,

I see what you mean :)

Question: If you have an incoming 480p signal can you still use the DRC interlace option to convert it to 960i??

If not, would this be evidence of it bypassing the DRC when 480p is present?
post #73 of 176
8/28/03 at 11:23am
Quote:
Question: If you have an incoming 480p signal can you still use the DRC interlace option to convert it to 960i??
XROX,

I don't know of any key on the remote control that can alter the way 480p travels through the TV. There may be some parameter in the Service Menu that will cause a conversion to 960i.

Quote:
If not, would this be evidence of it bypassing the DRC when 480p is present?
If 480p is arriving on the screen as 480p and not 960i, this is not proof that bypassing is taking place. The DRC should be able to receive and retransmit 480p.

Some of the HI-Scan models that were missing the bypass chips were still able to display 480p so the DRC is as comfortable receiving 480p as it is with 480i ,720p, and 1080i.

Today in the XBR910 thread, ADU writes about his skepticism of the claim made by Sony that the 910 can scan at 15.75 khz as well as 30.5 khz and 33.75 khz.

So the jury is still out as to whether 480p is ever able to use the bypass circuit.
post #74 of 176
8/28/03 at 12:20pm
montreal,

If the 910 does actually scan at 15.75khz it would be great buy for me as I mostly watch 480i video based material (satellite). The reason I opted not to get a HD XBR was the very fact that it was limited to 480p or 1080i and was terrible at de-interlacing 480i video material (motion adaptive)

If the 910 can natively display 480i then it should look as good as my current analog XBR200.

I'd really like to know the truth regarding this.................
post #75 of 176
8/28/03 at 12:42pm
I love 480i material on my 36XBR800. There again, I take advantage of the DRC settings as well in order to get the best "clean-up". I watch digital satellite most of the time (mostly non-HD content) and can't complain when I compare it to my 32" analog television (Panasonic Superflat series from a few years back). Also, take in consideration that I am also gaining 4" of viewing area from my old set (32") to my new set (36") and would still prefer the Sony. Considering the Panasonic television is a higher-end set (at least in it's day it was) and I like both just the same or maybe even the Sony a little better for 480i material, that has to count for something.

To clarify, all we are doing by changing the the HDPT to 0 is bypassing the DRC part of the circuit which is basically unused by 1080i anyhow, correct? Maybe I missed somehing from all these posts since I skimmed through, but I wanted to make sure I knew what I was talking about. I too have noticed some type of strange vertical "bar" that kinda makes it's way back-and-forth across the screen when viewing HD content. I just thought it was something to do with the set, but never would have guessed it would have been correctable. Hopefully this will fix me up once I get the tv back from repair.
post #76 of 176
8/28/03 at 12:56pm
debennett2,

It is all very subjective. Many of my friends don't mind 480i material on their HD sets and I'm happy for them.

Personally though, the current DRC processor, and others, that use motion-adaptive de-interlacing don't do the job for me, especially with sports broadcasts. If CRT manufacturers would put as much effort into their processors as Plasma manufacturers (ie fujitsu) do I would be gratefull.

Why not use DCDi on all video based 480i. I think it would make the difference for me.

Even better, scan natively at 480i (15.75kHz)
post #77 of 176
8/28/03 at 2:18pm
One of the guys in the thread about the scrolling vertical bar, I think maybe ANDY64 said he found the bar in 480p but it was extremely tough to see and looked more like interference of some kind. If I remember correctly, and I may not, he confirmed the presence of the bar using some kind of test equipment. If this is true what would it mean? About him seeing the bar in 480p; I'm sure I read that. Whether it was really the bar he was seeing I don't know for sure. But in the post he was sure the bar was, in fact, in 480p.
post #78 of 176
8/28/03 at 2:39pm
Also, the reason I remember it was I almost got up and turned on the DVD player to try and spot the bar. After a little thought however the idea of finding it in 480p almost made me puke. So I didn't look. The next time I was watching I looked a little but saw nothing. Andy64 sure seemed to know what he was talking about and I figure it was probably there since he was one of the people to spot the problem in the first place. Like I said I was so sure he was right I was scared to look.
post #79 of 176
8/28/03 at 3:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
One of the guys in the thread about the scrolling vertical bar, I think maybe ANDY64 said he found the bar in 480p but it was extremely tough to see and looked more like interference of some kind. If I remember correctly, and I may not, he confirmed the presence of the bar using some kind of test equipment. If this is true what would it mean? About him seeing the bar in 480p; I'm sure I read that. Whether it was really the bar he was seeing I don't know for sure. But in the post he was sure the bar was, in fact, in 480p.
I'm afraid that would support my viewpoint that 480p is not bypassing the MID/DRC transformation circuits. I'm pretty confident that 480p is being hit with the MID/DRC processing regardless of how the HDPT is configured on my 34XBR800.

1) 480p looks identical with HDPT at either 0 or 1.

2) It's blanked out by DPSW, regardless of how HDPT is set, just like the other signals passing through the MID/DRC circuit. The only signals which seem immune from this blanking are the "new" 540p/1080i when HDPT=0.

3) The MID... geometry controls transform/resize/reposition the 480p picture regardless of how HDPT is set.

4) 480p has the same slightly processed look to my eye as other signals going through the MID/DRC circuit.

It's possible this may vary for other Sony models, but on my 34XBR800 all the evidence seems to indicate that it is not bypassing the MID/DRC circuit, regardless of how HDPT is configured. And I verified all the above with both a DVI and Component 480p source.

If it didn't pass through these circuits then it might well be locked into Full/overscan mode the way the new bypassed 1080i seems to be. So in this respect, the add'l control over the 480p picture that the MID/DRC circuits allow could be a good thing.

I'd stake my reputation though, Montreal, that it is scanning progressively. :) Whether it's 480p or "upconverted" 540p, I can't be entirely sure (the two are so simliar it's hard to tell them apart)... but it is scanning progressively. However, if Sony says their CRTs can scan at 31.5kHz (480p), then I'd be sorta inclined to believe 'em.

Perhaps the DRC circuit is transforming 480p to your hypothetical slightly re-timed 480.0001p though. That might explain the bars in 480p (albeit barely visible) on some TVs.

And maybe there's an "SDPT" option somewhere else in the service menu which can force 480p to bypass as well. (??)
post #80 of 176
8/28/03 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Perhaps the DRC circuit is transforming 480p to your hypothetical slightly re-timed 480.0001p though. That might explain the bars in 480p (albeit barely visible) on some TVs.
Right on ADU,

If the same problem of 1080i also exists with 480p, then the DRC is not up-converting 480p to 540p, because if it was, the bar would be scrolling too fast to see. So I agree, if there is a bar then it means that the DRC is retransmitting at 480.0001p and also that Sonys are truly dual scan TVs.

We need the same sharp eyes that found the 1080i bar to look for a potential 480p bar.

If enough people complain, then maybe there will be a service bulletin telling how to get the bypass circuit activated when 480p is inputed.
post #81 of 176
8/28/03 at 4:10pm
Thread Starter 
:D I guess I played right into your hand on that one, Montreal. ;)

If you want a progressive picture though, then what about a nice HTPC@540p?
post #82 of 176
8/28/03 at 5:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by debennett2
I have a 36XBR800. If I want to perform the bypass, all I would need to do is have a coaxial input (say my cable) connected to the RF input and then seelct that input. Then go into the service menu and change HDPT to 0 rather than 1. Is this correct?
Dan,

The procedure for implementing the bypass seems to vary a bit depending on the model. The HDPT bypass and the 1080i bar fix are basically the same thing though. So, at the moment, the 1080i bar fix thread is probably the best place to look for information on these different variations in implementation.

Montreal's Post #37 also covers some of this.

However, the HDPT switch in the service menu seems to be the part of the process which actually does the re-routing of 540p/1080i. On my particular 34XBR800 switching this from 1 to 0 is all that seemed to be necessary to invoke the "new" 1080i. However on other TVs, the process may be more involved. And if it's not done correctly, it might be possible to damage the TV.

In the bar fix thread the following changes in service menu are also mentioned:
Quote:
5. Select DVI 1080i output on the source. Select Video 7 input on the set. go to step 6.
6. Enter service mode, then choose "vivid mode" in the user menu. Modify the following data: 2170P_3 SHOF=2, 2170P_3 F1LV=2, 2170P_1 CBOF=38, 2170P_1 CROF=38. Write the data. Go to step 7.
7. Choose "standard mode" in the user menu, then modify the following data: 2170P_3 SHOF=3, 2170P_3 F1LV=3. Write the data. Go to step 8.
8. Choose "movie mode" in the user menu, then modify the following data: 2170P_3 F1LV=1. Go to step 14.
9. Connect a component 1080i video source to video 5. Select video 5 input on the set. Go to step 10.
10. Enter service mode, then choose "vivid mode" in the user menu. Modify the following data: 2170P_3 SHOF=2, 2170P_3 F1LV=2, 2170P_1 CBOF=37, 2170P_1 CROF=37. Write the data. Go to step 11.
11. Choose "standard mode" in the user menu, then modify the following data: 2170P_3 SHOF=3, 2170P_3 F1LV=3. Write the data. Go to step 12.
12. Choose "movie mode" in the user menu, then modify the following data: 2170P_3 F1LV=1. Go to step 13.
13. While viewing the 1080i signal in any picture mode, confirm that the following data is correct: CXA2151 YGN=7. CXA2151 CBGN=8, CXA2151 CRGN=8. Go to step 15.
FWIW, these particular tweaks do not seem to be part of the actual bypass itself. Instead, these seem designed simply to massage the new bypassed 1080i picture, so it looks more like the other signals on the TV. My best guess anyway. There may be other details in the bar fix thread that are important to read/follow on particular Sony models though.

If your TV has already had the 1080i bar problem succesfully addressed by a Sony tech, then the bypass is probably already implemented on your TV.
post #83 of 176
8/28/03 at 7:48pm
Thanks for all the detailed info thus far... particularly montreal and Adu.

Anyway, I took the plunge as of this afternoon and I'll be taking delivery of my new 36" HDTV on Monday (Labor Day) and I would like to know if there is one particular thread/forum/whatever that has the majority of tweaks used on the HS510 series sets. I own a Samsung 61" DLP as well, and have done alot of tweaking in that tv's service menu over the last few months. This is the first Sony I have ever owned though, so I am not exactly certain where to start. I plan to do the usual contrast and brightness reductions from the get go. Are there particular DRC modes/color settings/whatever that give a somewhat flat grey scale to 6500K out of the box? If not... which mode/color temp is closest?

Any idea if there is a service manual online for the 36HS510, or is this a purchase only? Also, my DLP's service manual is WORTHLESS when it comes to the service menu. It has no descriptions and no mention of even how to enter the menu. Is the Sony manual even worth owning in regards to SM tweaking?

I've read virtually every thread on the board that has "hs510" in it... I've got a little info here and there, but just wanted to know if there was any central thread with the "must do" service and user menu tweaks.

Thanks for any help you can throw my way.

Regards,
Jeff

PS - FWIW, I will be using an RCA DTC100 with some sort of VGA to Component adapter with this Sony. Once the new DirecTivo HD PVR's come out, I will move my Samsung TS160 STB down to the Sony and use the DVI input. Any thoughts on either STB with this set?

PPS - I'm very familiar with using Video Essentials and Avia to set the User Menu stuff, so you don't have to mention that. I also have Digital Video Essentials on preorder which should HOPEFULLY help all of us HDTV owners tweak a little better than the original DVD version. Of course that is only IF the sucker finally hits a release date. :(
post #84 of 176
8/29/03 at 11:06am
Thread Starter 
Have you looked at the 34XBR800 FAQ? It's sort of the mother of all threads for 16:9 Sony TVs.

I've been meanin to get a service manual for my TV for quite some time. I think the official route is either via Sony's site or Sony Parts (800-488-SONY). But there may be other suppliers as well. The 34xbr800 SM is ~$60 direct from Sony. What I may do is drop by a local Sony service center and see if they'd show me theirs first, so I know what I'd be payin for.
post #85 of 176
8/29/03 at 11:14am
ADU,
Yep... I've perused through that thread as well... though I was uncertain how much was applicable to the HS510 sets. My experience with DLP tweaking has led me to believe that the ranges that a certain value could be tweaked to give good output was smaller than what I read in that thread with regards to red push. i.e. "tweak this value between 8 and 15" or whatever. I was just hoping for a smaller range to try. I'm afraid that it's going to be a three week long process just to get the color decoder working close to correct and not screw grey scale all to heck in the process. Possibly unfounded fears I guess.

I'll be sure to try to cut and paste the pertinent stuff from that other thread and print it out before they deliver on Monday. Seems like the recommended time before attempting any color calibration is around 100 hours on the tube... that sound about right?

Thanks again,
Jeff


Quote:
Originally posted by ADU
Have you looked at the 34XBR800 FAQ? It's sort of the mother of all threads for 16:9 Sony TVs.

I've been meanin to get a service manual for my TV for quite some time. I think the official route is either via Sony's site or Sony Parts (800-488-SONY). But there may be other suppliers as well. The 34xbr800 SM is ~$60 direct from Sony. What I may do is drop by a local Sony service center and see if they'd show me theirs first, so I know what I'd be payin for.
post #86 of 176
8/29/03 at 11:16am
Thread Starter 
In case one may be tempted to take the various warnings/caveats here too lightly, MrFister offers some food for thought on the subject:
Quote:
Originally posted by MrFister
I purchased a 34xbr800 Aug 2002 and immediately noticed the white bar problem in 1080i. It was finally repaired by a sony tech this January. Just a service menu fix. Well my xbr800 went completely dark on July 10th and after 7 weeks and 4 attempts by sony tech to repair, Sony finally replaced it with the 34xbr910 this week.
post #87 of 176
8/29/03 at 11:35am
Quote:
In case one may be tempted to take the various warnings/caveats here too lightly, MrFister offers some food for thought on the subject:
ADU,

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. The SONY patch no more stresses the TV than choosing video2 over video1.

This is a sound electronic solution and I whole heartedly recommend it to anyone who follows the bulletin precisely.

MrFister's set was destined to fail before it was patched. He may face the same problem with his replacement XBR910 and he should not hesitate to have that one patched as well.

P.S. I'll be away from my computer next week so have fun without me.
post #88 of 176
8/29/03 at 11:38am
Thread Starter 
Bonne vacance, Montreal!

I'll try not to get into too much trouble w/o ya. :)
post #89 of 176
8/29/03 at 11:43am
Thread Starter 
Iceblade,

There are some tips on color correction in the Computer Input link in my signature. They were intended mainly for computer users, but you may find a few useful tidbits as well.

After making the basic corrections to Color, Hue and 2170P-2/RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB, my picture still had a somewhat yellowish tint on some inputs. Oddly, the 1080i bypass seems to have eliminated some of that. I never attempted to correct the greyscale though.

There are links there to some of the popular calibration disks (which may not work quite as well with the new 1080i w/o a DVI player as mentioned earlier), and the GWII FAQ which has some ideas on this subject although its values aren't necessarily applicable to other TVs.

Adjustments like these can be a bit like chasing your own tail. Sometimes it feels like you're going around and around, and never getting anywhere. :) For many folks, leaving the factory colors may be worth considering, especially if you like the "Sony look", and bought the TV for that reason.

Accurate color is fairly critical to some of my apps for this TV though.
post #90 of 176
8/29/03 at 11:58am
ADU,

Great, I'll be sure to check those out as well. There's a possibility that I might have a ColorFacts setup in-house at some point in the future, so I'd like to get as familiar as I can with the innards of the Sony SM and see what is what. I know that even using calibration equipment like CF can send you down that "chasing your own tail path", but am hoping that I can keep that to a minimum.

As for the Sony "look"... I really can't tell you if I like that or not. I only saw this tv for about 5 minutes at a Best Buy and Circuit City whilst showing their internal SD feed. The BB one was setup pretty dreadfully and the CC one wasn't much better. I bought the tv because it was the only one that BB offered that had comparable features to my RCA HDTV that was being replaced. I did what research I could on the HS510, just to see if it was a major turd in terms of any problems or not and decided to bite the bullet and just get the thing. I am hoping to be happily surprised with the out of box picture... but not holding my breath. At this point... anything is better than staring at the back of the 36" RCA that stares out at me from the entertainment center now. Plus, it will be nice not to put any more hours on the DLP bulb watching horribly compressed D* programming. :)

Thanks again for the link... looks like there's some more stuff to add to the "must read this weekend" list. :)

Regs,
Jeff


Quote:
Originally posted by ADU
Iceblade,

There are some tips on color correction in the Computer Input link in my signature. They were intended mainly for computer users, but you may find a few useful tidbits as well.

After making the basic corrections to Color, Hue and 2170P-2/RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB, my picture still had a somewhat yellowish tint on some inputs. Oddly, the 1080i bypass seems to have eliminated some of that. I never attempted to correct the greyscale though.

There's a link to the GWII FAQ there as well which has some ideas on this subject although its values aren't necessarily applicable to other TVs.

Adjustments like these can be a bit like chasing your own tail. Sometime it feels like you're going around and around, and never getting anywhere. :) For many folks, leaving the factory colors may be worth considering, especially if you like the "Sony look", and bought the TV for that reason.

Accurate color is fairly critical to some of my apps for this TV though.
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