Burlington, VT - HDTV

Unfortunately it will still be a while for the Burlington-Plattsburgh area to have HDTV. It's a long story and it pi$$es me off probably a lot more than you. Here's how it goes.

The stations have all agreed that the best thing to do would be to have all the transmitters at the same place so that people wouldn't have to rotate their antenna when they change channels (as is the case now with some stations on the VT side (WCAX, WVNY, WETK) and some on the NY side (WPTZ, WFFF, WCFE). The site that was agreed upon as the best was the top of Mount Mansfield, VT since it is the highest mountain in the state and would give the best reach.

Annoyingly, stupid environmental fanatics backed by the state have been trying to prevent them from building the required new facilities/transmitters on the mountain because it will have an impact on the scenery and birds will get stuck in the towers and a bunch of other nonsense. Because of this, we are about a year and a half past the deadline to have DTV and we still have nothing.

This summer (2003), I spoke with Peter Martin, the General Manager for CBS affiliate WCAX Burlington (the most anxious station to go digital) to ask him what was going on. He told me that they seemed to have gotten most of the problems out of the way. Only a few minor negotiations remained but the green light should shortly be here. However, it is too late to start constructing now since it takes a long time and they wouldn't be able to finish it by the time the winter arrives. We then have to wait for construction to begin in the spring of 2004. If everything goes well, they would be setting-up stuff during the winter and hopefully testing in the spring of 2005 to (fingers-crossed) be ON THE AIR in digital (channel 53) by Fall 2005! There doesn't seem to be any way to be on before that . This is just for WCAX though. I'm not too sure about other stations...

I also recently spoke to the manager of WVNY about their digital plans, which included their request to broadcast on channel 13 (VHF band), which I object to. They claim that their signal will be able to reach more in the VHF than the UHF. I'm a bit skeptical about this. I live on the south shore of Montreal and find that current analog signals on the UHF band (22, 33, 44, 57) are coming in very well, especially 22 which transmits from Mt. Mansfield. However, it is almost impossible to pull in the stations in VHF (3, 5) from where I'm at. One possibility is that 3 and 5 use low-powered transmitters that don't properly reach into Quebec. I hope that I won't have problems getting WVNY-DT on channel 13. I also find it annoying since I wanted to get a strong UHF only antenna so that I wouldn't get interference from strong Montreal VHF stations such as 12. (Note: All other digital stations will be UHF). I don't care about Canadian networks! Anyhow, the WVNY manager told me that it will probably be three years (Fall 2006)!!! before they're on digital. He called WCAX's plans "unrealistic" and "overly optimistic". I hope it's not the case since that would leave only a few months before it would be time to shut down analog. I doubt that 85% of viewers will get DTV tuners in such little time...

To answer your question once again, it appears the earliest will be the fall of 2005. However, there could be some interesting testing going on in the winter or spring of 2005.

It's a real shame that we will be the last people getting OTA digital TV in the country because of moronic Vermont environmentalists.

What type of antenna are you using? At my parents old place in Ste-Marceline-de-Kildare (about 30 minutes north of Joliette and way north of you) we pulled in 3 & 5 crystal clear. Its been a while but I seem to remember them using a trap (i believe that is what its called) when switching between channels 5 & 6.

For now, I just use an amplified indoor antenna (VHF uses the rabbit ears). I want to put up an outdoor antenna on a tower to get U.S. nets properly. Hopefully the digitals will be coming in strong...

That "trap" was probably to reduce cross-channeling when using an amplifier. If they would try to boost channel 5, they would end up boosting channel 6 so strong that it would cross-over into where channel 5 should be. You probably need one of those when you're trying to boost a weak signal without over-boosting one that's already strong.

Anyone have any new info on this topic?

Sure would appreciate any updated info on Vermont / NH digital stations, especially Fox & ABC

Walt

Walt,

You may have to search on New Hampshire as well though it is possible that there are just not many folks in your area that come to AVS yet. I see there is a thread here on NH PBS but not sure if that will help you much. You might have to become one of the first here to try. Have you found out how far you are from your towers yet?

Bruce,

Hey, I just realized I'm getting help from you everywhere :-), thanks.

When I do that online signal location test thing (can't remember exactly the url) it only lists 2 as Digital right now, one is NH PBS (WLED-DT @ 48.1), 30 miles away in Littleton, NH and the other VT PBS (WVTB-DT @ 18), 40 miles away in St. Johnsbuty, Vt. (awaiting FCC permit).

Only networks listed are analog stations W38CB, 38 is ABC about 23 miles away in Littleton and WNNE, 31 is NBC about 43 miles. There's No Fox listed at all, so I guess the nearest one is still Fox44 in Burlington, Vt., which I assume is similar distance to WCAX (CBS) which is listed as 50 miles away. Anything in that direction is blocked by a hill in back of my house but the other listed above I may have a shot at. As for Fox, it doesn't look good as near as I can see.
Again, thanks for all your help,
Walt

What kind of reception do you currently have from the Mt. Mansfield channels (3, 22, and 33)?

WCAX (CBS), WFFF (Fox), WVNY (ABC), WPTZ (NBC), WETK (PBS Vermont) digital stations will all be located on Mt. Mansfield. As I mentioned before the delays were caused by environmentalists that didn't want the new towers. To get their approval, they had to agree to share the same building and tower at the transmitter site, meaning that they will all be constructing together. The problem now is that WFFF and WETK's applications are being held by Industry Canada because they didn't specify "directional antenna" in their applications. This means that they can't construct this summer as planned and therefore (according to the manager of WCAX) the earliest they can be on the air is summer 2006!

However, WCFE (Mountain Lake PBS) in Plattsburgh will be starting on air testing THIS WEEK on channel 38 from Lyon Mountain, NY.

Bruce,

I can't get any of them OTA. I get them all as part of my Dish locals and I also get them on my Charter basic cable.

If look on a map of Vt & NH, I'm in Bradford, Vt which is about 30 miles North of White River Juc, about 500 feet East of I-91. I'm at about 600 feet elevation but on the East side of a hill, so anything West of me is blocked.

I have a great view East into NH and decent views South and North-East.

I appreciate your interrest in helping me out here but I think my only hope for Fox HD is if it gets on Dish Network or Charter Cable, which doesn't sound likely. I'd switch to Direct TV but I'm in a Pegasus area and I've heard that they don't do any HD right now.

Walt

Ouch? A few more thoughts.... If your not in a "white" area it appears you may be stuck for OTA HD from any of the major broadcasters. Perhaps you can contact your nearest station to see if you fall with their DMA or in an area without service (and/or check with Dish or Pegaus on that fact too). It might not hurt to check again with Pegasus to see if they don't carry the same or most of the HD offerings that DirecTV does (they are a reseller of DirecTV programming with their own packages and pricing). Though it won't give you the commerical broadcasters, you really might want to check into VOOM and see if their HD offerings appeal to you. Last, do check in with your Charter cable company to see if they have plans for HD in the near future.

What is a Pegasus area?

For Fox-HD, you would have a lot more luck with DirecTV since it is now owned by Fox. They are slated to add that feed to their HD-lineup. However, you have to be in an area where no reception is possible or be in a Fox owned and operated market (in which you would likely have it OTA).

Sorry you can't get Mt. Mansfield. That's where all the HD will be. Would you clear the hill with a tower? If not, what about Albany NY, Springfield MA?

Quoting from the Pegasus web site: "Pegasus Satellite Television is your source for DIRECTV®. Headquartered in Marlborough, Massachusetts, Pegasus provides DIRECTV programming to rural areas in 41 states nationwide. "

If you live in a Pegasus area then you have to get your DirecTV from them (they have a contract with DirecTV to be the sole source of DirecTV in their areas). They use the same hardware and satellites as DirecTV but offer different packages of hardware, programming and pricing. And they have their own customer service operation too. From what I understand, if you want DirecTV, you are better off if you are not in a Pegasus area.

Pegasus offers the same channels/packages as DirecTV, only some are slightly more expensive ($1 or 2).

I probably should actually talk to a Pegasus rep but it's my understanding that Direct / Pegasus DOES NOT have the Vermont locals yet, so even if I qualify to get their Fox HD feed, that qould be the trade-off.

As for Voom, I tried their site a while ago and they wern't available for zip 05033.

Side thought: I wonder what the possibility is of having a combination of Dish & Pegasus programming ? I didn't have to sign any programming commitment contract with Dish, so I have some flexability there. Drop my HD package with Dish & maybe I could sell my 811 to cover the cost of a Direct HD receiver. Keep Dish for locals & Superstations, have Direct for HD and either keep my Dish "Everything Pak" or switch to the Direct equivalent, depending on who offers the better deal. Wishful thinking probably..........but the $120 a month I spend now should be able to buy me something better than I have. Now I'm starting to ramble on.
Hey, thanks for all your feedback.
Walt

If you live near White River JCT you should know that the PBS station on Mt Ascutney has been broadcasting HD for some time now.

Yes its amazing that Chittenden county folks like me (8 miles from Mt Mansfield) in the most populated area of the state are behind central VT for HD.

Finally Directv locals (SD) off satellite are (still) awaiting the launch of the next Directv satellite to provide this service...maybe a few months, maybe more. Dish already has (SD) locals on sat. The ploy to see if you qualify for Dish/Directv HD (CBS, etc) is dicey from what I have read....good luck.

PS Maybe I'll try the Platsburgh PBS HD signal in a few weeks too.

Well, no body has posted in here for a month. So I'd like to see if anything has changed.

Just a little background. I live in White River Junction, VT (05001), and have pretty much no OTA reception of any channels. WNNE (WPTZ) SAYS they have a tower just 15 miles south from me that operates on channel 31, yet I can't pick it up with rabbit ears, or the old directional that is on top of the house we just bought.

I currently have Adelphia basic, and am looking to get the heck away from it. It is horrible. The PQ is just attrocious.

I too am waiting for the Burlington locals to go up on D*. Believe it or not, I live 70 miles from Burlington, yet I am in their DMA. The new satellite is up, but they are still working on getting it operational, and the 72.4 bird they are trying to lease from Canada is still in the approval process at the FCC. So we're talking months before we see those locals.

So, here is my delimna: Do you think that if I were to put up the biggest/baddest directional antenna I would be able to pick up the Boston/Manchester, NH local DTV signals?

WRJ is about 90 miles NNW from Boston/Manchester. I seem some of these antennas that say they pull from 120 miles away.

If cost were not an issue, do you think I should try this? Cost really isn't an issue, but I'd like to spend less than $1,000,000 on this thing

Let me know your thoughts.

Casey

Hi Casey,

I used to monitor this thread but haven't for a while. I live in Bradford, Vt, about 25 miles North of you, on I-91.

I have Dish Network and they've had the Vermont locals for a while now. They come through very clear but it's still SD and I don't think any of them will be offering any HD anytime soon. We did just get TNT in HD yesterday and it looks great.

I had talked to the station engineer for WMTW a few months ago and they we're suppossed to be starting to send a digital signal this Summer. WNNE did say they will go digital (from Mt Ascutney) but not sure when.

I think for us Fox & UPN will be the problems. I also get CBS HD with Dish Network (shhhhhhhhhhh - not sure how).

How'd you make out with that $ 1 m anntenna ? :-)
WaltinVt

WEll, I went to the local RatShack and picked up one of their Big UHF/VHF antennas for $45 plus their pre amp. I can get WNNE in perfectly clear (well a clear as analog can be) and went with DirecTV.

We qualified for Distants ABC/CBS/FOX and get WNNE of antenna for now.

I spoke with someone at WNNE (sorry can't remember his name) and he claims that they have all the equipment in and should be live with HD by the end of the summer/early fall.

When that happens, I'll be getting an HD Tivo and life will be grand again. I'm just happy to be getting rid of Adelphia.

I had also tried Dish, but could not get over the horrible PQ of the locals (Adelphia was better IMO) and having come from a Tivo, I could not get used to their 522.

So, I am happy, my wife is happy... life is back to normal for us

Casey

All northern Vermont High Def enthusiasts....new news!

Tonight the Mount Mansfield Transmitter relocation committee presented their plans for the HD needed digital upgrades to members of the Underhill Planning Board. The committee is comprised of folks from several of the local broadcasters; it seems to be headed by WCAX (CBS) people; from what I could discern the station engineer and manager were present. A reporter was also attending aand I expect components herein will be published soon in the Burlington Free Press. However I also stayed after the meeting and asked several questions. In summary:

1. The transmitter & facilities rebuild plans have been moving slowly forward for years. Finally there seems to be agreement with the state and towns and they expect a sucessful act 250 permitting process starting in about 1 month with granting hopefully in early 2005. They would then rebuild the Mansfield facilities starting in summer 2005; they would not be complete until the fall of 2006 due to the short season (the mountain is only "open" from about may to october for heavy traffic).

2. The rebuild actually will enable transmitter facilities for ALL regional broadcasters incl NBC and Fox. One stop shopping in essence.

3. The final mountaintop will have 3 towers and will be asthetically improved as compared to current. Tower max height is 165' under the 200' FAA "you must now add a red light" criteria. Apparently Howard Dean mandated that Mansfield would never have lights on top. Note that during the transition when both analog and DTV are being broadcast there will be twice the towers....

4. The WCAX folks revealed that they have been building their studio infrastructure to be HD ready by this fall. While they do not yet have HD cameras they will shoot news etc in 16:9 widescreen and manage commericals as well. The other broadcasters are apparently far behind and have not done much to start down the HD path. The WCAX activity is important because....

5. They also mentioned that Adelphia has approached them to run their CBS HD feed (and all the above 16:9 stuff) this FALL to supply local cable. In other words Adelphia is concerned that the imminent Directv Burlington local add will further erode their market share (currently about 55% down from 63)..and so the notion is to add something that satellite would NOT have..namely local CBS HD. Finally they mentioned that there were some isssues to close but they had installed the links to run the signals over to Adelphia...

6. Unfortunately it would not appear that NBC FOX or ABC would be as close to doing this due to their further behind status. Apparently Vermont PBS is on Adelphia now (I have not tried; I pull Mountain Lake PBS off northern NY OTA right now).

7. In polling WCAX on the impending satellite attempt to broadcast white area HD CBS, NBC, CBS they were against this due to the encroachement on their turf.

There were other minor points; in close they felt they would be sucessful with this timeline...but as evident from this timeline Vermont is in a race for DEAD LAST state to enable HD.

Keep the faith!

From the Burlington FreePress: 8/26/04

Mount Mansfield tower plan outlined

cc9.2;By Eve Thorsen
Correspondent

Plans for new communication towers atop Mount Mansfield will eventually mean less intrusive structures against the skyline than exist now. That was the message members of the Mount Mansfield Co-Location Association brought to Underhill residents this week.

The association outlined the final plans for WCAX, Vermont ETV and WVNY to add towers for digital telecommunications.

Three towers send analog signals for television broadcasts from the mountain's summit: a 300-foot WVNY tower and two towers less than 200 feet high belonging to WCAX and Vermont ETV. The WCAX tower went up in 1954; ETV in 1967; and WVNY in 1968.

The plan calls for three new narrow towers about 165 feet high that would be clustered and visually aligned. The old towers would remain until December 2006 or until 85 percent of Vermont households have digital television sets, whichever is later, then they would be removed.

Digital broadcast towers are needed for the new wave of televisions, which offer high-definition images.

"This project has taken a very long time in terms of negotiations. The deadline to be on air was May 2002 so we're way late," said Peter Martin, a member of the association who made Tuesday's presentation. Martin is general manager of WCAX.

The association was formed in the early 1980s when television and radio companies began discussing new communication towers at the summit of Mount Mansfield.

Members include representatives of broadcast companies such as Vermont ETV and WCAX and the University of Vermont, one of the area's major landowners, and members of state departments including the Agency of Natural Resources.

The proposal was greeted with approval by the few Underhill residents who attended the meeting.

"I think it's going to be a big improvement," said Betty Moore, who has lived in the town since 1967. "They've worked very hard to keep the towers short and to make minimal impact."

That sentiment was echoed by Will Simonelli, who moved to Underhill five years ago.

"I was concerned it was going to be one large tower," he said. "I think they did a very good job with this proposal."

The plan for new towers became controversial in the late 1990s, when concerns surfaced that plants and animals would be disrupted and that any new development could degrade Mount Mansfield's scenic skyline.

Residents on Tuesday were pleased to see that the new plan consolidates the communications towers in one small area. Landscape architect Terry Boyle, who has been working on the project, presented a series of digital images that showed a much clearer skyline once the old towers are removed.

Martin said the association is applying for a state land-use permit under Act 250 and hopes to have that permit in place by January. Act 250 is the state development-control law.

The project to build the new towers would take two construction seasons.

In the first year, builders would work on the foundation for the towers and for an expanded WCAX building that would hold the new transmitting equipment for the television stations.

The following year the towers and transmission lines would be put in place so digital broadcasts could begin in the late summer of 2006.

I posted this info a few days before the Burlington Free Press article in the thread "Northern Vermont High Def Update" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...light=vermont.)

I hope I did that right

I was at the meeting; there were several additional details regarding HD in Burlington I was able to discern in questioning the folks present.

[quote]Originally posted by vermonter
[b]All northern Vermont High Def enthusiasts....new news!

This sounds like good news for the future. Maybe the Luddites here can finally be satisfied. My question now would be what about the approval that is required from "Industry Canada." An ETV engineer told me a while ago that they were the big hold up.

Steve

This sounds like good news for the future. Maybe the Luddites here can finally be satisfied. My question now would be what about the approval that is required from "Industry Canada." An ETV engineer told me a while ago that they were the big hold up.

Steve

Per this:
"NAB: 99.7 Percent of U.S. Households Reached by Digital Television Signals from 1,292 Local DTV Station"
(ATSC Forum)
http://www.atscforum.org/pr/PR-040825-NABBrazil.pdf

Apparently Burlington is currently part of the .3% of the nation that doesn't do digital yet and they're talking "late summer of 2006" (if things stay on track) ?!

If there ever was a more compelling example of the need for new SHVIA regulations, I don't know what it would be.

Arn't these the same stations that deny waivers and don't want you to receive a digital signal from anywhere else ? They don't plan to broadcast in digital until over 2 years after 97% of the rest of the country and yet they (under the wings of the NAB) don't want you to have any other alternative to receive that signal.

I think all 6 of us HDTV owners in Vermont should start a protest.

WaltinVt

Not sure what that means...the Canadians hold cards here? That issue was not mentioned in either the meeting or in my Q & A after. Sorry if I seem ignorant....thanks.

Walt;

It was CLEAR that WCAX opposed waivers or the current legislation in congress to allow satellite to broadcast HD national feeds into areas such as ours.

Frankly I agree and am considering how I can obtain these feeds..hence I am watching carefully the upcoming HD national feed data from Directv.

Guys,
I think that most broadcast TV stations would love to be able to get out their signal to all of us woodchucks out here in the hinterlands. Most of us can't get cable anyway.
I am pretty sure that the second message in this thread dated 09-23-03 from foxfan is true. The biggest problem is the Enviro-Gov 501(c)(3) opposition. We can't do anything in Vermont without kissing the Conservation Law Foundation's ass first.

Steve

One of the versions of the new SHVIA legislation (ref Ensign Bill) should be going to the senate floor soon and it contains some new stuff about digital white areas that could help areas like ours get HDTV from satellite.

The NAB and local broadcast affilliates are lobbying full force against it, so if enough voters don't get on the horn and make some noise, it will probably get defeated or at least watered down.

http://www.digitaltransitioncoalition.org/digital/


WaltinVt

Pretty much, except the time-frame is now a year behind the date I originally posted. Construction will only begin in summer of 2005 and be completed in summer of 2006.

I just wish SOMETHING could be done to have the construction completed in one summer instead of two. El Niño maybe???