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Digital is not there yet....by a long shot.... - Page 2  

post #31 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by mikejz84
The problem is that all that furniture has to somehow make it in between the projector and the screen.
So sell the couch for two love seats or a love seat and a chair. My parents have a sectional sofa in their basement that I put a VPH-1030Q between. It works out pretty well. Or maybe you can ceiling mount. Or you could put a high shelf behind the couch and have the projector sit high above the couch. That's what Jason Berg's setup is...

http://home.comcast.net/~jlcburg3/ws...--graphic.html

Sitting at a screen width to throw distance would provide a great view.
post #32 of 287
Wish I could get rid of all of the stuff--but it is all university issued. Can't get rid of any of it:(
post #33 of 287
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by kaanage
How was the contrast on the JVC?
Kaanage,

The contrast was one of my big complaints. I can't quote the specks on it....but it is not the specks. It was the resolution that was not even close to what I have on my Barco 808s.

Quote:
I PREFER A CRT PROJECTOR MYSELF
BUT THE NEWER DIGITAL PROJECTORS ARE NOT THAT BAD THE DLP YOU SAW MUST HAVE BEEN A REAL BAD SETUP
Actually this JVC model was D-ILA. I agree the color balance was off. This would be easily remedied with a good calibration. The major complaints that I had was the resolution and the screen door effect.


QUOTE]
Wow man, such a close forum member. I would love to come and check out your theatre. Where do you live?? I'm in Glenwood.
[/quote]

I am in the Southwest Suburbs.,,,,Frankfort

QUOTE]
Had similar experience with Mercedes recently. Own a Toyota and love it. No problems. Smooth ride. Comfortable. Borrowed friend's Mercedes yesterday. Never driven a Mercedes before. Got flat tire after about 3 miles, resulting in bumpy ride. Also radio didn't quite sound right. Then engine quit (perhaps due to lack of fuel). Conclusion: Mercedes not even close to Toyota . . . not by a long shot.
[/quote]

You would have thought that I posted this in the Digital Forum. And tell me why would someone who prefers digital even bother reading the CRT forum??? Is it projector envy??? Your analogy presumes certain things. Firstly you are assuming that the Mercedes ran well to begin with. This projector had a poor picture from the moment I walked in the room. We are not talking about a minor flat tire that could be easily remedied. We are talking about resolution...comparable to performance....think 0-60 time and how the eyes react to the screen.....think cornering. Lastly, the Barco I have is an 808s. The JVC was new DILA. Last time I checked, newer cars tend to outperform vintage ones. Sheesh!!!

QUOTE]
What was your viewing ratio? Have you had laser surgery on your eyes? If you can actually see screendoor on a 92+% fill ratio 1360x1024 projector from 1.5x screen width or so it would seem like you must have bionic eyes. I suspect you saw something else and not screendoor unless you were pretty close to the screen [/quote]

I have not had a Lasik procedure. My eyes are too important to my livlihood to risk that. Yes the screen door effect became less as I moved toward the back of the theater but the resolution also became less. I was not impressed with the clarity of the image....period.


Overall I did not expect that posting this in the CRT forum where like-minded individuals come would create such a tempest!!
post #34 of 287
Quote:
The major complaints that I had was the resolution and the screen door effect.
Quote:
Overall I did not expect that posting this in the CRT forum where like-minded individuals come would create such a tempest
Kevin,

Some of us who have posted to this thread have owned both D-ILA and CRT projectors (I used a BG808s for several months).

Darin and Smitty and Jerome and I are reacting this way because
we all own or have owned a JVC D-ILA projector. And with a normal picture size (viewing distance 1 1/2 times the screen width) none of us see what you say you're seeing.

Since we like to make analogies, let me put it this way. What you have said in the quote above would be exactly like someone posting to tell us that CRT doesn't make black good enough. I think you'll agree, that would be about the least likely complaint we would ever hear about CRT. And so is screendoor with D-ILA.

Bob
post #35 of 287
BUT MY CRT PROJECTOR DOES HAVE BAD BLACKS:(

OF COURSE THIS IS THE ADVENT 1000
VIDEOBEAM A 30 YEAR OLD PROJECTOR
THAT I BOUGHT SIX YEARS AGO AS MY FIRST PROJECTOR :D

OF COURSE NEWER CRT PROJECTORS HAVE
IMPROVED A BIT IN THE LAST 30 YEARS:)


XANATOS
post #36 of 287
I think you would be amazed if we had a time machine and we could go back several years and look at some of the threads on this forum. There was one particular thread in which I was all by my lonesome arguing with digital people. Some of them had seen the Phelps calibrated G90 at CEDIA. And they were convinced that I had been lying to them all along because CRT could not really make black. That CRT black was not much different than they were getting with their LCD projectors.
I politely suggested that the explanation for what they had seen was probably that Phelps had cranked up the brightness so the picture could be easier seen with all the lighting present in the show.
They said no, I was full of it and they now knew for a fact that CRT could
not go black.
At that point Phelps himself entered the thread and confirmed what I had said. Except that someone else must have inadvertently futzed with the brightness and not him.
Not one of those guys ever acknowledged that they were mistaken. And in subsequent threads they were again repeating that they had seen the evidence that CRT could not make black.

I kid you not.

Bob
post #37 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by mikejz84
Wish I could get rid of all of the stuff--but it is all university issued. Can't get rid of any of it:(
Come on Mikey! Work with me! Have your roomies help you move the couch to the roof of your building at 3am. Cover it with plastic wrap to protect it from the elements. Presto! Or you could move it into a storage garage. Or hire someone to kidnap it, kinda like Scott Peterson's plan, minus the double homicide, bleaching of the hair, and "vacation" in Mexico.

You should petition your university housing to allow for furniture to be moved out of a room. Even my crappy apartment has a policy where any furnishings can be moved into storage. The maintenance guys will even move it for free! I guess they figure the furnishings are so damn ****** that they want to offer the opportunity for residents to make their places look semi-decent. BTW: Why does "******" go through but not "****y"? Hmm. Not that I'm complaining.

Check out my HT pics below to get a glimpse of my stylish furnishings. It's like a bunch of ****ing patio chair cushions stapled to a bunch of 2x4s. Very classy next to home theater equipment that retailed for $8500 (albeit, that was 10 years ago, but it still performs like an $8500 machine -- just compare it to an $8500 digital). :D
post #38 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by FertilityDoc

You would have thought that I posted this in the Digital Forum. And tell me why would someone who prefers digital even bother reading the CRT forum??? Is it projector envy??? Your analogy presumes certain things. Firstly you are assuming that the Mercedes ran well to begin with. This projector had a poor picture from the moment I walked in the room. We are not talking about a minor flat tire that could be easily remedied. We are talking about resolution...comparable to performance....think 0-60 time and how the eyes react to the screen.....think cornering. Lastly, the Barco I have is an 808s. The JVC was new DILA. Last time I checked, newer cars tend to outperform vintage ones. Sheesh!!!

I like to read the CRT forum because, among other things, there are some very knowledgeable people on this forum who know a lot about projectors, picture quality, etc., and I learn a great deal from them, even if I don't always agree with everything they might say. Also, it is fun to read posts like yours, in which a CRT enthusiast actually acts like they have had an epiphany about how horrible digital projectors are (as if they weren't predisposed on the issue to begin with), proceeding in turn to kindly pass this information on to the rest of the world, as if everyone else were not able to form their own conclusions. These posts, like yours, often reflect someone bashing the entire world of digital projectors based on observations of one projector for a limited time, where the setup appears to be questionable. They also typically involve the originator of the thread purportedly observing issues or problems that it is generally conceded (by knowledgeable folks on both sides of the fence) do not exist on the digital projector in question (as pointed out above by Mr. Wood). Unfortuntely, such posts also have the capacity to mislead those who have not read enough on this forum and the digital forum to realize that some portion of what you said in your initial post, and in particular, the conclusion, are not meritorious.

As to the analogy, it was merely meant to point out that a limited observation like yours is hardly the basis for the incredibly sweeping statement you make, which was: "Digital not there yet . . . not by a long shot." The limited observations you describe in your post are as much a basis for your conclusion as my scenario would be for concluding that Toyota is better than Mercedes. Both notions are equally ridiculous. But you missed the point of the analogy, as did others, because you are intent on advocating a particular point of view, and are not interested in any discussion that does not square with what that point of view is. Hence, the second part of your attack, and that of GScott's, which is essentially: "Get off OUR forum."

P.S. I am not mad. I am having fun. I am not taking this seriously and hope you are not. :)

P.P.S. Where is QQQ and his references to penis size when you need him?
post #39 of 287
Mike Y,

Ask yourself this one question.
If a 1031 can outperform an $8500 digital projector, then why would I be taking down a digital chassis, EM focus 8" CRT made in 1998 and putting a $3500 digital projector in place of it?

Bob
post #40 of 287
On second thought, maybe you best not answer that one. That was a loaded question if I've ever seen one. :D
post #41 of 287
Damn it, Bob! I was SO going to answer that with "I dunno Bob, why would you do that?" :D

You also may notice how I said "compare it to AN $8500 digital." I didn't say "compare it to ANY $8500 digital." ;) Though again, we are talking about a value judgement. Sure the digitals are brighter, but what if I don't need that large venue brightness? My seating capacity is now 2 people -- myself and an attractive female. :cool: Sure the newer digitals smoke my 540p 1031Q resolution wise, but what if I only watch DVDs? Sure digitals have gotten really good with blacks and have really improved shadow detail, but I already have good performance in those areas with exception to some haloing from my non-LC lens system. Sure the digitals, um, I ran out of things. Damn it! Oh wait... Sure the digitals cost much more money, hmm, no that wouldn't work...

A scrum-diddily-umchious image from a $500, 13 year old boat anchor. I love it! :D
post #42 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp
What was your viewing ratio? Have you had laser surgery on your eyes? If you can actually see screendoor on a 92+% fill ratio 1360x1024 projector from 1.5x screen width or so it would seem like you must have bionic eyes. I suspect you saw something else and not screendoor unless you were pretty close to the screen.

--Darin
I'd say he actually means pixellation - not screendoor. Screendoor will highlight pixellation on LCDs.

As for the resolution, I posted about the dithering effect of CRTs on another thread - digital projectors will need a far higher resolution to overcome pixellation through aliasing.
post #43 of 287
I saw that one argued in a thread on the digital forum.
I was scratching my head then just like now.
I asked them "what is the difference between pixelation and screendoor"? They said LCD has screendoor because of LCD's poor fill ratio. But with DLP and LCOS (D-ILA) you have a good fill ratio so instead of seeing the fill we're seeing the pixels so we call that pixelation.

Reminds me of that Ditech commercial with Yogi Berra on TV recently. The one where Yogi's sitting in the barber chair and turns to the other guy and says "when you're hurt you're not hurt".
post #44 of 287
"Oh no! Lost another loan to Ditech!"

Does anyone find that amusing? I don't. Makes you want to go through the banks just so you don't hear his pissing and moaning.
post #45 of 287
OK
Time to compare apples to apples price wise.
Last night I had the pleasure of seeing a friends HT. It was a beautiful narrow long room with full room treatments for sound. There was a lot of DIY audio equip as well as some components which he recieved either free or dirt cheap as he is a moderator of another forum.
For video he has a 45/80 screen with a brand spankin Sanyo Z1 which he purchased for roughly the same price I was selling Barco Graphics 800s.
This is a completely diff experience than I had viewing he 10K CDN plus Infocus 7200 a few weeks ago.
The image was about as bright as a BG800 in econo mode. He says he will leave it in econo to preserve bulb life so thats all I saw.
It had about the same degree of sharpness as a BG800.
Now here is where the Barco left it behind. The resolution of the Sanyo is ??X540 and I would always run a well setuo BG800 @ 1280/720 so the screendoor was very prevalent from 10' back. The blacks while not grey were not near as black as the 800 or the Infocus 7200 I saw a few weeks ago.
What this all translated to in image as far as I am concerned is the Barco gives a far smoother and more 3D image.
Seeing this unit in action also brought back another point to me re the images of Digital and CRt. When I saw the Infocus 7200 I was very impressed but still felt my XG would leave it behind in a side by side. After seeing the Z1 I think I know why CRT just looks better than Digital (for now). IT'S MORE LIQUID AND 3D. CRT just has a kinda 3D liquidy look to it that even the 7200 did not have at least not as much.
Sorry for the laymans terms but I prefer to use laynmans terms so that newbees can also understand and besides my vocab is limited.
Really the bottom line is this.
He had every opportunity to get a CRT from me. Hes got a warrentee. He's got a real small and quiet unit that gives a good image as far as he is concerned. Hes accomplished to a degree WAF and his system is simple from a video standpoint. If he wants to he can take the PJ to the lake and show a movie on the wall etc etc.
Truthfully he never even came over to see 1 of my CRTs as the other above listed aspects were important to him.
HE IS HAPPY AND THATS WHAT COUNTS just like M Young and if he never sees the XG then he'll never know.
post #46 of 287
I agree, Mike. That ditech.com actor is annoying. And you just made me realize I got them mixed up. The Yogi Berra commercial is actually Aflak (the duck).
post #47 of 287
Bob,

I have a quick question for you. You say the digital (HT1000) has more punch in the bright scenes and the CRT is better in dark scenes. Could the CRT be given the same punch factor in the bright scenes with a higher gain screen?

The reason I ask is that my fiance and I are building a new house next year and I want a larger screen but I also want my CRT picture. I have been toying with a Stewart high gain curved screen. On my current 87" wide screen I'm getting around 10 ft-L. According to my calcs I can keep the same size screen and get 24 ft-L or go with an 8' wide (19.8 ft-L) or a
9' wide (15 ft-L). Just curious if the 8' wide at almost 20 ft-L would produce the same punch in the bright scenes as your digital but still give me the same CRT picture that I love.
post #48 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by Energeezer
OK

Really the bottom line is this.
He had every opportunity to get a CRT from me. Hes got a warrentee. He's got a real small and quiet unit that gives a good image as far as he is concerned. Hes accomplished to a degree WAF and his system is simple from a video standpoint. If he wants to he can take the PJ to the lake and show a movie on the wall etc etc.
Truthfully he never even came over to see 1 of my CRTs as the other above listed aspects were important to him.
Crt isn't for everyone..

I bet he wouldn't have taken one from you for FREE with you installing and calibrating it for him..

We own a CRT for the picture quality which we are willing to make sacrifices/comprimises for...

Most people may care about picture quality, but it's very unlikely they would put this at the top of their requirement list like we do..
post #49 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by GScott
Bob,

I have a quick question for you. You say the digital (HT1000) has more punch in the bright scenes and the CRT is better in dark scenes. Could the CRT be given the same punch factor in the bright scenes with a higher gain screen?

The reason I ask is that my fiance and I are building a new house next year and I want a larger screen but I also want my CRT picture. I have been toying with a Stewart high gain curved screen. On my current 87" wide screen I'm getting around 10 ft-L. According to my calcs I can keep the same size screen and get 24 ft-L or go with an 8' wide (19.8 ft-L) or a
9' wide (15 ft-L). Just curious if the 8' wide at almost 20 ft-L would produce the same punch in the bright scenes as your digital but still give me the same CRT picture that I love.
I've never used a curved screen but if it can boost the screen brightness to the levels you mentioned, then I would imagine that you would probably have all the punch I'm seeing with the HT1000. Don't know.

Interestingly, what I'm seeing with the HT1000 is apparently dim compared to the other DLP's. There are a couple of projector shootouts being discussed now on the bulb forum and some of those guys are complaining that the HT1000 is the only one that doesn't have enough light output.
That's even though there is no question that I have more screen brightness with it than I do with my 8" CRT when the two are being compared on the same screen.

Bob
post #50 of 287
gscott, if you want the skinny on a curved screen you should probabaly talk to somebody like xanatos who swears by them.............
post #51 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by Energeezer
OK
Time to compare apples to apples price wise.
...
He had every opportunity to get a CRT from me. Hes got a warrentee. He's got a real small and quiet unit that gives a good image as far as he is concerned. Hes accomplished to a degree WAF and his system is simple from a video standpoint. If he wants to he can take the PJ to the lake and show a movie on the wall etc etc.
And this is why, even if digital and CRT had exactly the same images, the CRT would have better price/performance if you don't count all those convenience factors. So, when (if?) digital catches up in the image quality department to videophiles, there will still be people shouting that the CRT has better price/performance, as if that isn't obvious if you don't count size, portability, noise, or other factors that the market values besides image quality.

The better digitals get, the sooner some of you guys can afford a G90. Seems like a win/win all the way around.

--Darin
post #52 of 287
Alright, I use a gain of 1.0 on a 72" wide screen with SD-187s (500 peak lumens with my projector) and I really don't have any brightness gripes. Talk about an 8" or 9" 1000+ lumen CRT projector, high gain curved screen, and you could go pretty large. I think Xanatos's high gain, curved screen is 100" wide. He used a Sony 1292Q (one of the lowest brightness 9" projectors out there) with it and has said that he gets a very bright image.

Human eyes will adjust to brightness, within reason. Our irises are not fixed. If they were fixed then brightness would be a serious issue. But they aren't and that makes brightness only important to a point. Take a light meter and measure outside at high noon and it in a brightly lit room without windows. When your irises adjust to both environments they both appear bright, but outside is really much brighter. This is analogous to CRTs in light controlled environments.
post #53 of 287
Quote:
The better digitals get, the sooner some of you guys can afford a G90. Seems like a win/win all the way around.
Above you see the words of a man making perfect sense!!!
post #54 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp
And this is why, even if digital and CRT had exactly the same images, the CRT would have better price/performance if you don't count all those convenience factors. So, when (if?) digital catches up in the image quality department to videophiles, there will still be people shouting that the CRT has better price/performance, as if that isn't obvious if you don't count size, portability, noise, or other factors that the market values besides image quality.

The better digitals get, the sooner some of you guys can afford a G90. Seems like a win/win all the way around.

--Darin
How a projector 4 to 8 times as large is as issue for a someone serious about HT is beyond me. We have huge ass speakers and they aren't pissed on for being too big. No, they are cool. What did I miss?

You know, I don't think that CRT being the best bang for the buck is very obvious. I mean, it is blatantly obvious to those who have bought a CRT projector in the past several years. I wonder how many people in the digital forum have seen a CRT FPTV, much less one that has been properly setup. More so for the average guy looking to get into FPTV home theater -- a market that is saturated with digital projectors. I'd argue that the amazing value of CRTs is one of the best kept secrets in home theater. You don't see them in stores. You barely see them in magazines (granted because they are hardly made anymore and you can't make much ad revenue with them). There are only a couple dozen at most on eBay at one time. I think they are seen by may newbs as being obsolete, obscure, and primitive. That's what I thought my 1031Q was going to be like when I concluded that I couldn't afford an SVGA LCD and had to settle for CRT. What a joke!

Okay, so size I tackled. Portability? RPTVs aren't very portable. Is that a serious flaw? Tell that to the sales person and see what you get. But you know, I have to somewhat agree, having a slick little digital to cart around on the road would be neat. Then again, sometimes the real serious toys can't travel around. Well, you could put one in an RV. Now that's what I wanna see! I wanna see an RV pimped out with a CRT FPTV! Noise? My 1031Q runs almost silent. There are also hush boxes. Hell, my damn HTPC needs a damn hush box! It's about 4 times as loud as my projector! In my opinion, there are reasonable solutions to these issues you bring up that the market "values." But you know what? Screw the market if they can't make me a digital that smokes all CRTs and costs less than a few years of college tuition. :D
post #55 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by MYoung
What did I miss?
The very simple and blatantly obvious fact that not everyone thinks the same way or values the same things you do, that's what. :)

--Jerome
post #56 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by MYoung
You know, I don't think that CRT being the best bang for the buck is very obvious.
If you discount all of the non-image quality factors (as I said), then I think it is pretty obvious to most here.

I use an HTPC sometimes also, but a Bravo D1 hardly makes any noise and a 30k DVHS machine doesn't make much noise either. The lack of noise, ease of use, and improved image quality of the D1 with DVI are definitely selling factors to a lot of people.

The market is made up of everybody and I don't think CRTs are priced the way they are because word hasn't gotten out (it isn't like they are new). The prices are what they are because of what the market values.

--Darin
post #57 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp
If you discount all of the non-image quality factors (as I said), then I think it is pretty obvious to most here.
Even as one of those "bulb guys," I would agree with this. But discounting the non-image quality factors is ignoring a huge issue for many folks. It's kind of like saying OJ was a credit to the National Football League if you put aside that Nicole Simpson thing. :)
post #58 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp
The market is made up of everybody and I don't think CRTs are priced the way they are because word hasn't gotten out (it isn't like they are new). The prices are what they are because of what the market values.

--Darin
Are saying the more expensive a product, the better it is?
How one can drive a market value for a CRT pj, ebay or dealers who actually sell CRTs these days? There is a huge difference between dealers and ebay prices.
post #59 of 287
At the same time their is a huge difference between dealer price and ebay price on digital pjs also. Locally I saw a Yamaha digital for $10k, on ebay almost half! Sadly, most dealers make their money by selling to stupid people with a lot of money. Also remember that the prices on ebay do not reflect the shipping costs for a CRT--which is a big difference IMHO. I do want a CRT, but I am not going to even think about one that I can't physically go and pick up in person.
post #60 of 287
This whole thing is a lot like still cameras (film I mean). Of course there are still people using them. And many (mostly the diehard pros) will argue with you all day long that the digital cameras aren't good enough yet. But the transition is in progress and the masses are losing interest in film cameras.
I get about a half to two/thirds of the price for decent 35mm SLR's that I was getting two years ago on eBay. Give it a little more time and they will all go the way of the typewriter. Sure Andy Rooney is probably still using one. But not me.

I find it ironic that some of yuse guys who are so attached to this dinosaur CRT technology are college age and twenty somethings. While here I am 54 years old and wanting the new stuff. Go figure.

Bob
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