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Digital is not there yet....by a long shot.... - Page 3  

post #61 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by jsaliga
The very simple and blatantly obvious fact that not everyone thinks the same way or values the same things you do, that's what. :)

--Jerome
You are right. The truth is cloudy, or should I say, "gray," to many people. :D

Thank the industry for that.
post #62 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by ArtisTech
Are saying the more expensive a product, the better it is?
I am saying that if a product sells for more then it is valued higher by the market. Okay, it isn't quite this simple because of volumes and things, but yes, if people are willing to pay more for a product then they value it higher. That is different than whether it is better. If a person knows of two products and buys the higher priced one, then it must be better for them, though. If enough people do that and yet you claim the one they choose is inferior overall, then you need to figure out what "better" means and why your criteria must be different than their's.

Now, if somebody is going to claim that a product is better overall for the market, yet sells for less then they need to find a reason. And the market not knowing that a product exists is a possible reason. Not a good explanation for a decades old product like CRT, though. If the market really valued them highly they never would have taken the price or exposure slide that they have.

Is there really anybody here who thinks that CRT was never given a fair shot at grabbing the public and the market? I'm not saying that CRTs aren't great for a lot of people, but that the overall market must value some things that CRT doesn't excell at or you would see more of them in home theater shops and prices wouldn't be where they are.

--Darin
post #63 of 287
Quote:
I find it ironic that some of yuse guys who are so attached to this dinosaur CRT technology are college age and twenty somethings. I would have never predicted that one.
I'll explain it Your Cheapness.

Some people just want the best image quality and are willing to pay

Some people want the best but are Cheapskates.

Some people want a great image (not neccessarily the best) and have plenty o cash

Option #3 applies to only the digital guys with the cash to buy the new quality digitals

Option # 2 applies to the college kids not neccesarily cheapskates but w/o a lot of cash.

Option #1 Well those boys buy a Marquee 9500, or G90 and pay for the setup.
post #64 of 287
I have two cameras. A Digital I got as a Christmas present and a Canon EOS Rebel. While both where about the same cost I LOVE my SLR camera. Long exposure nigh photography and beautiful black and white photos. Nothing is more fun then playing about in a dark room, photoshop has nothing on it. On the other hand If I am going somewhere and want to take some quick pictures for ebay or alike I just go for the digital. Digital is vastly quicker and easier--but for better RESULTS i also prefer the SLR
post #65 of 287
The market price is mostly driven by supply and demand.
There have a good influx of used CRTs flowing into market which is the prime reason for its low prices.
A full scan of a slide or negative frame is about 55MB pixel. Go figure.
post #66 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp
If you discount all of the non-image quality factors (as I said), then I think it is pretty obvious to most here.
To us, yes. To the masses, no. Everytime I show my CRT to someone who has no idea what it is, their jaw drops. Then after they pick it up off the floor I tell them how much I paid for it. Their jaw drops again.

Quote:

I use an HTPC sometimes also, but a Bravo D1 hardly makes any noise and a 30k DVHS machine doesn't make much noise either. The lack of noise, ease of use, and improved image quality of the D1 with DVI are definitely selling factors to a lot of people.
So the implication that analog RGB is noisy? I now think of digital and analog this way... There is good digital and bad digital just as there is good analog and bad analog. There seems to be this feeling among people that "digital good" and "analog bad." I say either can be good or bad.

Quote:

The market is made up of everybody and I don't think CRTs are priced the way they are because word hasn't gotten out (it isn't like they are new). The prices are what they are because of what the market values.
What the market values and what the science of projection values can be very different. So when you refer to the market and everyone who is a part of it, you are speaking basically about cattle being told what is good and what they should buy. CRTs are priced the way they are because people are uneducated. Now, I'm not saying that all digital projector owners are stupid for buying a digital projector. If someone has seen afforable models of the technologies properly setup and has made an informed decision based on their needs, more power to them. But CRTs cost what they do because hardly anyone knows about them. They aren't new, but they have been phased out just as newer technologies that make them even better (IE: digital controls and memory, LC lens systems, and EM focus) and more affordable to use (IE: Multimedia PCs) have come on the scene.

Granted, there's no way most people could have afforded CRTs when they were the dominant projection technology, but that's because even then, everyone was being told that direct views and RPTVs were the way to go. So direct views and RPTVs were mass produced. It's too bad that CRT FPTVs were never mass produced and sold to the public like the first direct view TVs were sold to the public in the 50s.
post #67 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp

Is there really anybody here who thinks that CRT was never given a fair shot at grabbing the public and the market? I'm not saying that CRTs aren't great for a lot of people, but that the overall market must value some things that CRT doesn't excell at or you would see more of them in home theater shops and prices wouldn't be where they are.

--Darin
I wouldn't go as far as to say CRT wasn't given a fair shot but I think CRT projectors we on the market at the wrong time. The majority of CRT's were built for the boardroom and were very expensive. The XG110 that I purchased for $2500 was marketed new in 1996 for over $25k. Dedicated HT's are something that only recently have become available/popular with the more middle-class consumer. How many would have HT's if projectors still sold for $25k+. I remember when I first decided to built my HT I was amazed to see the projectors that I thought were in the $40-50k range selling for less than $4-5k. Don't kid yourself, most projectors were originally built for corporate use. In the corporate market a small, cheap digital is the ideal solution and is a no brainer compared to its CRT counterpart. Ironically, if it wasn't for the CRT being replaced by digitals in Corporate America I don't many of us would have a FP based HT. There would be no $2500 NEC XG's and there would be no option for those who could not live with CRT's limitations.
post #68 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by MYoung
CRTs are priced the way they are because people are uneducated. Now, I'm not saying that all digital projector owners are stupid for buying a digital projector. If someone has seen afforable models of the technologies properly setup and has made an informed decision based on their needs, more power to them. But CRTs cost what they do because hardly anyone knows about them.
I think some other CRT aficianados would agree with you that CRT's cost what they do because "people are uneducated" and "hardly anyone knows about them." But perhaps they cost what they do because a significant number of people have "seen affordable models of the technologies properly setup and [have] made an informed decision [to go with digital] based on their needs." Alternatively, even some who have not seen a properly set up CRT may have made an informed choice to reject it for other reasons. (It is possible, you know.) In other words, you assume that the "masses" have made a different choice than you because they are ignorant. Maybe they are not, and maybe they have made a different choice because what you value is not what they value. But, of course, even if the majority were to disagree with your choice or your value system, that doesn't mean you are wrong. :)
post #69 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by smitty
In other words, you assume that the "masses" have made a different choice than you because they are ignorant. Maybe they are not, and maybe they have made a different choice because what you value is not what they value. But, of course, even if the majority were to disagree with your choice or your value system, that doesn't mean you are wrong. :)
Don't ignore the fact that a good majority of used CRT buyers stems from this forum.
Here they get the link, background info, set up, maintenance and repair. You name it. Therefore, it is the abundance of information and knowledge that sells thse second hand items. So MYoung for most part is right. I do not believe that majority of digital buyers are equally informed about both technologies due to unavailability of CRT in the retail stores.
post #70 of 287
In their heydey CRT projectors were sold to corporate and institutional users and the government. And outside of the very small little niche market Runco created, were rarely ever sold to consumers.
Along came the little lamp projectors and virtually all of the commercial market for CRT projectors disappeared. So now all those existing projectors are only wanted by a handful of home theater enthusiasts.
Being there is an enormous glut of them lying around, and a very small market for home theater, they aint worth nothin. Just like everything else it's simple supply and demand.
post #71 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by smitty
...you assume that the "masses" have made a different choice than you because they are ignorant.
Yes, I do for the most part assume that, with the exception to those who have seen all their options and have made a decision not primarily based on cinematic image aesthetics. That assumption is based on my own experence as well as the experiences of many other people like me who have stumbled upon CRT who either knew how capable they were for home theater applications (not many people) or who bought a CRT because they couldn't afford a digital (not many people). Show 50 people a picture of a CRT projector. How many people will know what the hell it is? Not many.

Quote:

...maybe they have made a different choice because what you value is not what they value.
Or maybe their choice is a function of what the manufacturers want them to buy.
post #72 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by ArtisTech
The market price is mostly driven by supply and demand.
There have a good influx of used CRTs flowing into market which is the prime reason for its low prices.
I am talking about prices over the last couple of years, not just recently. The demand for CRT projectors in home theaters is not all that high. Even the demand for digital front projectors in home theaters isn't that high compared to some things (plasmas), but I'm confident that the demand for digitals is much higher than the demand for CRTs. And that is pretty much at any price point.
Quote:
Originally posted by MYoung
To us, yes. To the masses, no. Everytime I show my CRT to someone who has no idea what it is, their jaw drops. Then after they pick it up off the floor I tell them how much I paid for it. Their jaw drops again.
That is pretty much the experience most digital owners have. When I showed a less than $2k brand new digital to a rear HDTV owner he was blown away in this same way. Mike, even you know that most of the masses you are talking about wouldn't notice the advantages of a CRT over an LCD. Now, what you paid is pretty low from what I understand, but I bet a lot of those people who were blown away by your equipment would be more likely to buy a used AE300 at $1300 or so (next month when the AE500 comes out).
Quote:
So the implication that analog RGB is noisy?
I was responding to your point about your HTPC being louder than your CRT, so CRT noise wasn't an issue. With a standalone DVD player like the D1 the only real noise should be from the projector. Then the amount of noise coming out of it does matter. Am I wrong that almost all CRTs are louder than current digitals without using a hushbox? An HT1000 in low lamp mode with a D1 is pretty dang quite.
Quote:
But CRTs cost what they do because hardly anyone knows about them. They aren't new, but they have been phased out just as newer technologies that make them even better (IE: digital controls and memory, LC lens systems, and EM focus) and more affordable to use (IE: Multimedia PCs) have come on the scene.
I just think that hardly anyone knows about them because they do not compete well enough in today's market and companies have stopped spending money on making them and marketing them. If we are talking about how big a market is, we should realize that the market for used items is smaller than the market for new plus used and I usually hear people talking about the market for used CRTs. There are many people who don't want to buy a used projector and for most of them the CRT market doesn't look all that good. I think people know that the home theater market for new CRTs is pretty miniscule.

You might be right about all the new things to help CRTs. However, I recommend home solutions to a lot of people I know. The number that a front projector works for isn't all that big and I can't think of any of them that I would recommend a CRT to knowing their requirements and things they would be willing to do to get good images. There are people who hang out on these forums that I would recommend a CRT to, but I just can't think of anybody outside that I would. And it isn't like I don't know what it would take for them to go the CRT route. I also don't recommend HTPCs or anamorphic lenses to many outsiders even though I use them. I painted my walls dark in one room, but know that most of these people won't do that either. For almost all of these people ease of use is very important. Each of these things to improve image quality require another step in the level of commitment, so less people will do them.

I don't believe there is a CRT setup out there that is as hassle free from start to finish as a D1 and STB with an NEC HT1000 or Panasonic AE500. And start to finish should include getting rid of the thing eventually, which with a small digital is usually selling it to a friend or posting it in a classifieds somewhere and selling it fairly quickly. That isn't to say that the CRT wouldn't have better image quality, but I am looking at a lot more than that when trying to make the best recommendations to people I know.

My goal isn't to knock either CRT or digital, but to be realistic about the advantages and disadvantages of each.

--Darin
post #73 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by MYoung
Show 50 people a picture of a CRT projector. How many people will know what the hell it is? Not many.
And then ask them if they want one. No matter how good the images are, many of those people will still say, "No". Now show them a 6 lb digital and many will still say, "No", but a lot more will say, "Yes". That is the reality of what most people want to bring into their homes.

--Darin
post #74 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp
And then ask them if they want one. No matter how good the images are, many of those people will still say, "No". --Darin
I have to agree with that. One has to be some what a enthus to enter the CRT game. That is why the demand for low hour hi end 8" and 9" are still fairly good.
post #75 of 287
DARIN, your last statement said it all...a good buddy i work with has never had the chance to see my crt in action..but based on it's size he says he wouldn't want it..he's starting to get into home theater and will be purchasing a projector soon,but he wants a digital...and he's willing to pay $1500 or more for a greyhawk screen..at this point i feel like his mind is made up so all i can do is let him enter into this bad marriage..

iv'e been to abt as well,as well as many other stores thru-out chicago area and i have seen some very good digitals..NOT as good as crt's though!!!!i have seen a few though that if price was right,it would be a tough decision.one thing which we all know,you have to have a greyhawk or similar with a digital..

and i agree with original poster...that projector at abt is terrible!!!i really think it's a bad setup on the stores part...

brickie
post #76 of 287
I have a little story to illustrate one of my points. I have a friend at work who would like to get a projector, but he is going to have to play his cards right if his wife will ever let him. They were having a kids party and I told him I would bring my projector and screen over to show the movie, figuring his wife would see how easy it is. However, I thought about it and realized that my current projector (Sharp Z10000) wouldn't impress her. Even though the images are nice, it is 20 lbs and costs $11k new. I paid $4550 used, but all those things would make her discount front projection, and there is no way she will let him have something like this. So, I decided that I will wait until I get a Panasonic AE500 for about $1980 new and then take it over to show them. This one is about 6 lbs. Then he might have a prayer.

--Darin
post #77 of 287
I REALLY DON'T BELIEVE A CRT PROJECTOR
IS ALL THAT HARD TO SET UP IN THE HOME
AS EASY A DIGITAL NOPE NOT BY A LONG SHOT

HEAVY YOU BET EVEN THE SMALLEST ARE ALMOST
A 100 POUNDS
THIS HOWEVER IS A PLUS
IT KEEPS THE CAT FROM KNOCKING
THE PROJECTOR OUT OF ALIGNMENT

IS A CRT PROJECTOR LOUD
SOME ARE I KNOW MINE IS
BUT AGAIN THIS IS A PLUS
THINK OF ALL THE CARPENTRY
SKILLS YOUR GOING TO DEVELOP
BUILDING A HUSH BOX

WAF ANOTHER PLUS
YOU LIVE THERE TO
BE A MAN AND LET HER KNOW IT
TELL HER THIS IS YOUR ROOM
AND THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO SHARE IT WITH HER
AND THAT A MIGHTY CRT PROJECTOR AND ALL YOUR
OTHER TOYS ARE HOW YOU MARK YOUR TERRITORY
IF SHE DOES NOT ACCEPT THIS
MARK YOUR TERRITORY BY PI$$ING ON THE COUCH
GIVE HER THE CHOICE I BELIEVE SHE WILL GO FOR
THE HOME THEATER WITH A CRT PROJECTOR


XANATOS:cool:
post #78 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood
I saw that one argued in a thread on the digital forum.
I was scratching my head then just like now.
I asked them "what is the difference between pixelation and screendoor"? They said LCD has screendoor because of LCD's poor fill ratio. But with DLP and LCOS (D-ILA) you have a good fill ratio so instead of seeing the fill we're seeing the pixels so we call that pixelation.
Get a printout of 800x600 (or better yet 640x480) digital picture from a dye sublimation printer and then an inkjet - that is the easiest way to demonstrate what I mean about the dithering effect that CRTs produce.

Screendoor is the black border around the pixels and only really affects LCDs - pixellation is the visible image quantitization that all fixed display matrixes will produce. Screendoor will make pixellation more obvious.
Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood
I find it ironic that some of yuse guys who are so attached to this dinosaur CRT technology are college age and twenty somethings. While here I am 54 years old and wanting the new stuff. Go figure.
Heck, I can't wait to get rid of my CRT for something smaller, quieter and more flexible - I just haven't seen anything close to the picture quality that is affordable. Believe me, I'm no Luddite.

All the recent posts are about digital convenience vs CRT picture quality so the main thrust of this thread seem to have been decided anyway.


XANATOS, why do you persist in posting in upper case? I'm sure I'm not the only one who skips your posts because they're too hard to read.
post #79 of 287
BECAUSE I AM A JERK:D


XANATOS
post #80 of 287
Damn straight, Xanatos!

A CRT is not very difficult to set up. Cooking a decent meal is more involved than setting up a CRT projector, and that's something a woman does! Okay, very much to their credit, my cooking aptitude peaks with "Lipton Rice Sides." But hey, those can be tricky. They boil over in no time in a small pot. :D

If you can program your VCR you can learn how to setup a CRT projector. For God's sake, if you can wire a 6 speaker system correctly you can pop the top off a CRT and twist some pots to get a decent picture. Why the argument for "CRTs require some effort to setup and that's a weakness" yet the Bose in a box sound systems are frowned upon? Now, setting up a CRT really well is an art that takes time -- but so are many other hobbies. So a hobby should be easy?! Does the digital crowd fish with sonar? :D I mean, can a hobby at least have some level of difficulty? What is this saying about guys in general if CRT home theater is pretty much too difficult for the masses?

It's always "hard to setup." My manual walks me through convergence. Some EHOMES have ****ing cameras that can do a decent convergence if you are a total dunce. Then it's "too big and heavy." What's the average RPTV weigh? How big is an average RPTV? It's laughable.

Oh, and how ludicrous is it to have a TV service man tweak your RPTV if you are serious about home theater? Yet the same thing with an CRT FPTV is just a hassle?
post #81 of 287
AND DONT FORGET MIKE
IF A GUY HAS FROM 5- 20,00$$$
FOR A GOOD DIGITAL
HE CAN AFFORD 1-5,000$$$
FOR A GREAT CRT PROJECTOR
AND 600-1,000$$ FOR A PRO SETUP
AND THEN USE WHAT HE LEARNS
FROM HIS MANUAL TO KEEP HIS PROJECTOR
SETUP
AND IF YOU WANT TO DO IT YOURSELF
IT IS NOT THAT HARD
WHEN I BOUGHT MY FIRST PROJECTOR
IT CAME WITH NO MANUAL NO POWER CORD
THE GUY I BOUGHT IT FROM TOOK MY 200$$$$$$
SHOWED ME THE CONVERGENCE CONTROLS
AND WISHED ME WELL

I BOUGHT A POWER CORD TURNED IT ON
AND IN LESS THAN A WEEK I HAD A GOOD
PICTURE IN A MONTH I HAD A GREAT ONE


XANATOS
post #82 of 287
Surprisingly enough there have been some interesting posts on this thread. It seems like the digital and CRT guys agree on most things with some minor disagreements here and there.
I have to agree with most of the things myself but there is one poster I always seem to agree with.

Quote:
BECAUSE I AM A JERK
LOL:D
post #83 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by MYoung
Yes, I do for the most part assume that, with the exception to those who have seen all their options and have made a decision not primarily based on cinematic image aesthetics.
I do not want a Ferrari, but I have never driven one. I guess my decision is based on ignorance? Either that or I have duped by the manufacturer of my present car? The fact is that people are capable of making an informed and reasonable choice regarding CRT vs. digital without necessarily seeing a properly set up CRT. YOU might not be able to make an informed choice without seeing the properly set up CRT, based on your knowledge of your own preferences, but I would submit that you are once again substituting your own value judgments for other's when you assert there is only one way to resolve the issue.
post #84 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by MYoung

A CRT is not very difficult to set up. Cooking a decent meal is more involved than setting up a CRT projector . . . .
Now I've heard everything.
post #85 of 287
SMITTY
WOULD YOU WANT A FERRARI
IF THE COST WAS LOWER THAN
A NEW TOYOTA

ME I WOULD TO HAVE A FERRARI
AND ONE DAY SOON I WILL
TILL THEN I WILL DRIVE MY FIRE BIRD
THAT IS OF COURSE PAINTED FERRARI RED
AND BE HAPPY WITH THE FERRARI I ALREADY
HAVE IN MY THEATER

XANATOS
post #86 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by kaanage


Screendoor is the black border around the pixels and only really affects LCDs - pixellation is the visible image quantitization that all fixed display matrixes will produce. Screendoor will make pixellation more obvious.

Yes, same as if I take a black felt-tip pen and draw borders around the squares in a Rubik's Cube. With the painted borders, the matrix becomes more visible. But the matrix is still visible to a lesser degree even without the painted borders.

We can arbitrarily label one "screendoor" and the other "pixellation". But our eyes have no understanding of that and don't care. What they see in either case is a matrix of horizontal and vertical rows of pixels. The only difference our eyes see is a difference in how pronounced the matrix appears.
You can choose to call it "pixelation" and not "screendoor" in the case of DLP and LCOS if you like. However, it still resembles looking through a screen door. Just a screen door with a finer screen.

Bob
post #87 of 287
PS.
IF SOMEONE HAS NOT SEEN A CRT
IN ACTION HOW CAN ONE MAKE A INFORMED
DECISION I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU BUT WHEN
I SPEND MONEY I LIKE TO SHOP AROUND

XANATOS
post #88 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by xanatos
SMITTY
WOULD YOU WANT A FERRARI
IF THE COST WAS LOWER THAN
A NEW TOYOTA

Are you just talking acquisition cost? If it is going to cost a lot of money to get it tuned, and if I have to tune it fairly regularly so that I'm getting all the performance I should be getting, I might spend more for the Toyota initially, figuring that it will be a lot more cheaper, and convenient, in the long run. :)
post #89 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by MYoung
Then it's "too big and heavy." What's the average RPTV weigh? How big is an average RPTV? It's laughable.
Laughable would be a term I would use for thinking that size and weight at the image is equivalent to size and weight of something that needs to go at the viewer's end. Completely different situations. One can go on the floor without getting in the way of optimum viewing positions at all, while the other one cannot unless it is put in front of or under the viewers. I doubt that anybody thinks a big, loud projector between the viewers and the screen is ideal for most situations where a short throw would allow this, either.

There are of course setups where these issues aren't a big deal, but the lower the number of setups where something is a good fit according to a purchaser's criteria, the less ideal it is for the market. Also, the more remodelling that has to be done to accomodate a product the less it will be valued by the market, all else being equal.

In your case at college if you had a digital projector you could use it in your room, use it in the main living area, and take it to other rooms or even outside to show things. Now, are you really going to say that the size and weight of your CRT aren't disadvantages vs a 6 lb digital? Of course your CRT has some advantages, also.

We aren't comparing CRT front projectors to RPTV rear projection units, but if we were I think it should be pretty obvious to everybody that the RPTV rear projection unit will fit in more american houses in ways that the owners will be happy with than CRT front projectors will. I hope we aren't debating that obvious point.

BTW: Being able to play 4 way Halo on a big screen would probably make you pretty popular. Not sure what game would be popular with the ladies. You might want to keep the CRT also, though. I can see it now:

Mike (to the most attractive female): If you think this looks good, let me show you how much better the CRT in my room looks. ;)

--Darin
post #90 of 287
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp
We aren't comparing CRT front projectors to RPTV rear projection units, but if we were I think it should be pretty obvious to everybody that the RPTV rear projection unit will fit in more american houses in ways that the owners will be happy with than CRT front projectors will. I hope we aren't debating that obvious point.
If we're debating whether setting up a CRT projector is as easy as setting up a VCR, I guess even obvious points are open to debate. :confused:
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