Cincinnati, OH - HDTV - Page 5

Doc, You're a natural award acceptor(if that's a word!) :-)

Noticed that This month's HDone movie "Black Rain" is scheduled for SD showing on WKRC at 2am late night Saturday ... Wonder if we'll see it on WKRC-DT on sat night?

A fellow at WWHO-DT, Columbus/Chillocothe(also runs the HDone movies) commented that when he was recording it(They are showing it Sunday Afternoon), he thought it looked to be a very well done transfer to HD - His comments are here:

http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/for...PagePosition=1

Welcome back Laird :-)

Charles,

Thanks much for the update. Also, Feel free to join us at anytime on the Dayton Thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...18#post2897318 ) as well.


Excellent news! It's good to hear PBS+WPTD will be offering more HD programming soon. Also, although I notice that a couple of them have popped up from time to time, there are a number of excellent programs that have aired in PBS HD/Widescreen on earlier occasions which many current and future HD viewers haven't had a chance to see, so hopefully those will get aired again at some point as well.


Yes, I've enjoyed programming on "16again" which I missed on Think16. There was a really cool show on the Floridian Aquifer which I caught on 16again a while back -- It was shot in HD according to the credits, and hopefully I'll catch it in HD sometime. I'm not positive, but think it might have aired in HD on ThinkHD a couple of times, but I missed it.

Unfortunetly though, I've noticed that when WPTD-DT began running both 16again+Think16 program services when programming is also being aired on Think16HD, The HD(or upconverted widescreen) quality often suffers because of increased compression artifacts(i.e. macroblocking). It looks to be much more of a problem now to my eyes than was the case when only ThinkTV16 programming was multicast along with HD programming service.

Hate to be negative on this issue and it is not my intention to "shoot the messenger", as nevertheless, I am glad that there is at least one station in the area that provides HD/PBS widescreen every night, presenty. And certianly, it unfortunetly is pretty much the norm in our area that stations are sacrificing HD quality to some degree in order to also use their bandwidth for other purposes, which is understandable given the other beneifts to DTV besides HD(multicasting/datacasting/etc). I wish there was a way we could all have our cake and eat it too. But, also unfortunetly, it is the consumer who purchased the equipment, and is watching these stations FOR HD who suffers.

Just a couple of cents -- In any event, thanks for being there, and for participating here, we really appreciate it

Yes! defintely send them a note of thanks(even if the movie's a dud), so they know it's not just me and Doc out here watching .... They missed a few months of HDOne HD showings over the summer, but had them every month between Feb. 2002 and April 2003. Of the ones I've seen, I especially enjoyed "The Odd Couple"(Nice transfer for a movie from the 60's) and "Witness", it was the first time I had seen either in their OAR. The one from April or so with Halle Barry was a decent flick as well.

Funny thing, I was expecting it tomorrow night, and was watching CBS HD at 8(The new show "Joan of Arcadia", sort of an interesting show), and Boston Public on 'XIX at 9 ... If I would have known I would have checked it and set the recorder ...

According to AVS programming sypnosis, next month's HD-one movie is "Scrooged" with Bill Murray. It's been some time ago, but WKRC programming folks had said they'll have them through the 2004-2005 season, and at one time there was a list up there of many of the titles in the package in programming sypnosis Including some good ones still to come such as the Star Trek Movies, Indiana Jones movies/etc.(Raiders of Lost ark was EXCELLENT in HD when ABC had it a couple years back).

Maybe TWC Cincy needs to carry BOTH WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT(as I'd think they will after analog shut off), then maybe nobody will complain if CBS HD is missing during HDone movies ;-)... Or, WKRC-DT could show the HD airing of HD one Movie on weekend afternoons ... If the FCC simulcast rule "sticks though"(-FCC is currently reviewing this in their ongoing 2nd DTV review of the rules for DTV transksistion - it's at 50% of analog programming currently, 75% on 4/1/04), by the time we get to 4/1/2005, they're supposed to simulcast 100% of analog programming on the digital station, so if they're still doing it by then I won't tell ;-)

That's very good to hear. Appreciate your willingness to address this issue, which is VERY frustrating for us.

Have to say I agree completely with Paul+Doc's posts on this issue. Couple of add'l thoughts.

#1.) I really think stations should be following ATSC recommendations on this issue, and should be sending the 16x9 ATSC format that "matches" what they are doing with muliticasing/datacasting, regardless of what their Net is sending them. If it really is the case that better encoders in the future improve things, then the ATSC recommmendation should be revised when those newer encoders are used -- I haven't seen it yet, though, and as they say, seeing is believing.

1080i = NO mullticasting, NO datacasting beyond what is available as oppurtunistic bandwidth.

720p - HD+1 SD subchannel is fine. HD + Datacasting that used, say 4.39 Mb/s(non-oppurtunistic bandwidth) of the 19.34mb/s available I think would be fine too. In other words, 14~16Mb/s for HD should be fine with 720p. I'm not saying I can't see the difference between what WDTN-DT/WCPO-DT gives us as compared to if they give it the full bandwidth available(such as WDTN-DT did at first), but, I find what they are doing HD wise+1 subchannel presently acceptable.

I'm not sure this is a ATSC recommendation, and I KNOW it isn't HD, but I think 16x9 480p ATSC format+ 2 SD programming services would be fine. I'd certianly much rather have HD, but if a station is going to send 2 SD programming services alongside HD, and therefore limit HD bandwidth to 11~13mb/s or so, I personally would rather see 480p 16x9 than HD full'o' compression artifacts.

Of course, the severity of the problem also often involves how "bandwidth demanding" the source material is. So, if say WKRC-DT would just switch to 720p for HD football/sports/etc, it would be an improvement -- But, then again, I've seen artifacts be a problem during "CSI", too.

While technically, I suppose you could still call it HD, if it is plagued by compression artifacts such as what we get during HD Football due to limited HD bandwidth from WKRC-DT/WHIO-DT during CBS Football, or just about anytime(even during upconverted widescreen programs) from any of the 3 current local PBS DTV stations, it just doesn't Look like HD anymore. Except when "stuff" doesn't move.

I can see the problem on a 17" PC monitor being Fed HD, from several feet away. Of course, it's much worse on my larger 38" HD display.

#2.) You guys are talking about "HD capable" displays and viewers, but I would submit that viewers will benefit who own any display that can support any higher rez than 480i 4x3 SD. 16x9 content sent via ANY of the 16x9 ATSC formats is an improvement over 16x9 content letterboxed inside a 4x3 frame, via ATSC or NTSC. There are 16x9 480p "ED" sets, and there are 4x3 HD and ED displays which support the full "rez" of 480p/i 16x9 ATSC formats via "vertical compression", and I'd think 16x9 sent as ATSC HD format would look decent(although not HD) on those sets too.

Granted, presently, most of the sets out there ARE 4x3 480i SD only sets, and, unfortunetly, there are even quite a few HD/ED capable sets which are being used for NOTHING excecpt to display 4x3 SD programming(perhaps besides your occasional, so called "anamorphic" DVD.) There should be fewer and fewer of the latter, as they finally figure out they are not really "seeing" HD or anything that closely approximates HD, and these folks(hopefully) really "upgrade" to HD. And in the future, due to tuner mandate and Plug and play agreement, HD/ATSC capability(for OTA AND digital cable in most circumstances) will be "built into" sets.

I'm thinking that in the future also, many, if not most 25" and above displays will have will have some "enhanced capability" to display resolutions greater than just 480i 4x3 SD. I could be wrong though.

16x9 sent as letterboxed inside a 480i 4x3 frame is definitely "low resolution" or, "low definition". Granted, we all know what DTV transistion is all about, but there is an oppurtunity here to improve television, and I'd like to see more of that happening. I don't personally call HD full of compression artifacts at 11mb/s or so an improvement.

#3). Certianly, I'm going to choose to watch a station which broadcasts 1080i at 18mb/s over the same programming at 480p at 11mb/s. However, I would CERTIANLY also choose the 480p station at 11mb/s vs. 1080i(or 720p for that matter) at 11mb/s -- probably even 15 mb/s if demanding source material such as HD football was being broadcast ..... HD just doesn't look like HD if it's full of compression artifacts, or if HD is "softened" to make compression artifacts less noticable ....

Anyone's DTV receiver seeing WPTD-DT tonight? Went to tune in at 8pm, and noticed neither of my receiver's could see them .... Checked 58 on a analog, non-screen muting TV and, instead of the "snow" I should be seeing, I'm seeing something tonight I've never seen before(see attached pic).

Update: Seeing WPTD-DT just fine again now at 9:45pm. I wonder what the heck that was though -- It looked consistant with WPTD-DT's signal, and was definitely coming from that direction.

Interesting! And yes, it did very much look like a "analog view" of something digital.

Anyway, just glad it apparently didn't turn out to be too serious of a problem. I did some quick "tuning around" when it was happening, and it didn't seem like the signal went out-of-channel. "Clean snow" and good signals everywhere else they were supposed to be.

Another interesting thing I didn't mention was that the audio "behaved" pretty much like it would if there were a FM station on the air with carrier but no programming, although you could tell the Tuner AFT was wondering a bit -- On the audio side instead of white noise as I would have expected, I had silence ...

Laird, it wasn't a reception problem, it was a problem at ABC with the HD feed. See Itzme and Gerhard911's post on the last page, as well as the thread at link Gerhard911 posted.

Just ran across some bad news in the abstract of article ("NBC, Affils Forecast DTV Weather Channel"). at following link :

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...ate=11/17/2003

Here's a quote from the article

: "I don't think there is a TV station in the affiliate body that would say there is anything more strategic than weather," says Hearst-Argyle Television Executive Vice President Terry Mackin, who chairs the joint futures committee of NBC and its affilia..."

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Sigh. I'm especially disappointed in the above, as, except for the short time we had PBS HD in all it's "glory" from WCET-DT in Dec 2002, WLWT-DT was once(not long ago) the place in Cincinnati/Dayton to see 1080i HD unencumbered by macroblocking -- Unfortunetly, the only times this was especially evident from NBC/WLWT-DT was during 2002 HD winter Olympics, and 2002 Triple crown.

Anyhow, seeing the above reminded me that I saw the ol' "screen door" effect in a couple of fast moving sections of "ER" in HD the past couple of weeks from WLWT-DT ... So, since WLWT-DT's Weather radar is still up, I sent them a note this afternoon asking them to drop the SD subchannel, for all the good it will do.

I guess as long as WXIX-DT sticks to giving everything to a single program service, I'll be switching channels quite often to Fox, and FOX HD probably in a year or so ... Of course ABC HD/ HD from WCPO-DT/WDTN-DT is "more or less" fine too, since they are doing 720p, there is room for 1 SD subchannel ...

PQ IS important to advertisers, because advertisers know that people will (unconsiously or consciously) often tune into the stations which have good PQ. When their New Car ad becomes a blur of unrecognizable macroblocks in HD, believe me, they will be concerned.

I share your concerns, though. It doesn't help that many people are accustomed to the poor SD PQ that is often available via Cable(analog+digital) and DBS. I can't tell you the number of times that folks have come into my house, and have commented that the ANALOG PQ they see is the "best picture quality" they've seen. They allways ask who my cableco is, and sometimes they still don't believe me when I take them outside and POINT OUT the antenna.