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Cincinnati, OH - HDTV - Page 5

post #121 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Doc, You're a natural award acceptor(if that's a word!) :-)

Noticed that This month's HDone movie "Black Rain" is scheduled for SD showing on WKRC at 2am late night Saturday ... Wonder if we'll see it on WKRC-DT on sat night?

A fellow at WWHO-DT, Columbus/Chillocothe(also runs the HDone movies) commented that when he was recording it(They are showing it Sunday Afternoon), he thought it looked to be a very well done transfer to HD - His comments are here:

http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/for...PagePosition=1
post #122 of 14333
Best Buy, I found out tonight, has a Hughes E-86 open box for $299, but you may be able to talk them down. It didn't have a remote.
Also, anyone know of someone who is ISF certified? If not, do you recommend DVE for tweaking a set.
post #123 of 14333
Hi Guys.

Back in beautiful downtown Cincinnati for a few months. Just had a new sat. dish installed to receive all the Direct TV HD stations. Still have trouble downtown receiving the PBS stations. Sometimes receive WCET and KET.

Have you read about the new ZOOM service. This will give Direct TV and Dish a run for their money. Some talk about getting the local stations HD by sat. dish. A couple of the other movie channels are going to have HD, such as CineMax.

The person looking for high end gear...look up M. Alan & Associates. You have to have an appointment, but they have a $150,000 set-up in one of their displays. The latest 7.1 audio decoder, 150 " screen, front projector, and about 10 high end speakers and subs. Awesome!

Best wishes

Laird L.
post #124 of 14333
Laird..
Welcome back. Although you just missed the really good weather. You got here just in time for the COLD.

I've seen the local HD via sat threads and am not putting a whole lot of stock into them. I can see DirecTV using the Ka sats they're getting to do that for some of the larger metro areas, but the need for user investment in new gear seems to me to outweigh the benefits.

The Voom model (Local channels via antenna only) makes the most sense to me. It's just a little too far ahead of its time. But it could be the best way for conus HD "cable" channels and a darn fine alternative for those who can't hit the lower southwest birds.

I still say that, by the time any company can work out the technology to supply HD LIL into a significant number of markets, it'll no longer be necessary as the penetration of city-grade ATSC signals will make the feature attractive only to those in fringe reception areas. And that won't be enough to make the money necessary to offset the expense.

But, of course, I could be wrong. I never thought LIL over satellite would be a big deal, anyway. Who knew people living a mile from the transmitters would pay $5 a month just so they don't have to futz with rabbit ears?

Anyway, welcome back.

Doc
post #125 of 14333
Thanks for visiting our Website, and keeping tabs on us!

WPTO-DT is still slated to begin broadcasting with a January / February time frame. We are connected to TimeWarner's Dayton head-end via Fiber, and they have approached us looking for Digital Content. We are currently providing them the two services (14DT and 14Learn) from the lineup for that Digital channel. The other two services that will be offered are still being drawn up and finalized. We will not be sending out HD on WPTO until after the Transmitter signs on the air.

I do want to bring a bit of attention to WPTD's "16Again" service. We are delaying our and playing back our PrimeTime schedule in a "checkerboard" basis over 7 days... If you miss Nova on Tuesdays, you now have 10 other chances to see it!

Also, starting in December, PBS's HD Service will eliminate the "Loop" and begin offering HD Programs 24/7 (many of them being up-converted Widescreen programs). WPTD will be expanding its carriage of HD beginning in January. Exact times are not quite nailed down yet.
post #126 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Welcome back Laird :-)

Charles,

Thanks much for the update. Also, Feel free to join us at anytime on the Dayton Thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...18#post2897318 ) as well.

Quote:


Originally posted by Charles Cole
Starting in December, PBS's HD Service will eliminate the "Loop" and begin offering HD Programs 24/7 (many of them being up-converted Widescreen programs). WPTD will be expanding its carriage of HD beginning in January.

Excellent news! It's good to hear PBS+WPTD will be offering more HD programming soon. Also, although I notice that a couple of them have popped up from time to time, there are a number of excellent programs that have aired in PBS HD/Widescreen on earlier occasions which many current and future HD viewers haven't had a chance to see, so hopefully those will get aired again at some point as well.

Quote:


Originally posted by Charles Cole
I do want to bring a bit of attention to WPTD's "16Again" service.

Yes, I've enjoyed programming on "16again" which I missed on Think16. There was a really cool show on the Floridian Aquifer which I caught on 16again a while back -- It was shot in HD according to the credits, and hopefully I'll catch it in HD sometime. I'm not positive, but think it might have aired in HD on ThinkHD a couple of times, but I missed it.

Unfortunetly though, I've noticed that when WPTD-DT began running both 16again+Think16 program services when programming is also being aired on Think16HD, The HD(or upconverted widescreen) quality often suffers because of increased compression artifacts(i.e. macroblocking). It looks to be much more of a problem now to my eyes than was the case when only ThinkTV16 programming was multicast along with HD programming service.

Hate to be negative on this issue and it is not my intention to "shoot the messenger", as nevertheless, I am glad that there is at least one station in the area that provides HD/PBS widescreen every night, presenty. And certianly, it unfortunetly is pretty much the norm in our area that stations are sacrificing HD quality to some degree in order to also use their bandwidth for other purposes, which is understandable given the other beneifts to DTV besides HD(multicasting/datacasting/etc). I wish there was a way we could all have our cake and eat it too. But, also unfortunetly, it is the consumer who purchased the equipment, and is watching these stations FOR HD who suffers.

Just a couple of cents -- In any event, thanks for being there, and for participating here, we really appreciate it
post #127 of 14333
It's kinda late now, but the HD-One movie is on tonight on WKRC-DT.
post #128 of 14333
Paul,

I just noticed the HD movie on WKRC-DT, I just started recieving Ciny Locals, how often & when do they show the HD-one movies?
post #129 of 14333
The HD-One movies have been showing (minus the hiatus) on the second Friday of the month, unless the first of the month falls on a Saturday. We had it on good authority that the HD One movies were moving to Saturday due to the number of JAG fans complaining. However, it didn't happen, this week. Maybe next month. At least they're there, no matter which day they're on.

DO WRITE WKRC and tell them you saw it. Remember, there's not a single HDTV in the WKRC studios (aside from the reception desk, which is not the route most of the employees use to get into or out of the building). Not even the master control room has an HDTV, nor is there a dedicated monitor on the CBS-HD feed. So, they have no idea what's on WKRC-DT, what it looks like or that very many peope are watching. Their own employees were asking ME what's on in HD.

Doc
post #130 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Yes! defintely send them a note of thanks(even if the movie's a dud), so they know it's not just me and Doc out here watching .... They missed a few months of HDOne HD showings over the summer, but had them every month between Feb. 2002 and April 2003. Of the ones I've seen, I especially enjoyed "The Odd Couple"(Nice transfer for a movie from the 60's) and "Witness", it was the first time I had seen either in their OAR. The one from April or so with Halle Barry was a decent flick as well.

Funny thing, I was expecting it tomorrow night, and was watching CBS HD at 8(The new show "Joan of Arcadia", sort of an interesting show), and Boston Public on 'XIX at 9 ... If I would have known I would have checked it and set the recorder ...

According to AVS programming sypnosis, next month's HD-one movie is "Scrooged" with Bill Murray. It's been some time ago, but WKRC programming folks had said they'll have them through the 2004-2005 season, and at one time there was a list up there of many of the titles in the package in programming sypnosis Including some good ones still to come such as the Star Trek Movies, Indiana Jones movies/etc.(Raiders of Lost ark was EXCELLENT in HD when ABC had it a couple years back).

Maybe TWC Cincy needs to carry BOTH WKRC-DT and WHIO-DT(as I'd think they will after analog shut off), then maybe nobody will complain if CBS HD is missing during HDone movies ;-)... Or, WKRC-DT could show the HD airing of HD one Movie on weekend afternoons ... If the FCC simulcast rule "sticks though"(-FCC is currently reviewing this in their ongoing 2nd DTV review of the rules for DTV transksistion - it's at 50% of analog programming currently, 75% on 4/1/04), by the time we get to 4/1/2005, they're supposed to simulcast 100% of analog programming on the digital station, so if they're still doing it by then I won't tell ;-)
post #131 of 14333
Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman

Thanks much for the update. Also, Feel free to join us at anytime on the Dayton Thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...18#post2897318 ) as well.


Unfortunetly though, I've noticed that when WPTD-DT began running both 16again+Think16 program services when programming is also being aired on Think16HD, The HD(or upconverted widescreen) quality often suffers because of increased compression artifacts(i.e. macroblocking). It looks to be much more of a problem now to my eyes than was the case when only ThinkTV16 programming was multicast along with HD programming service.

[/b]


I am subscribed to the Dayton Thread, this one is just busier!

As an engineer at heart, I agree with you on the compression issues. I'd like nothing better than to offer full bandwidth HD to you guys.

Unfortunately, we need to server our viewers, and there are FAR more viewers with Analog sets, that have upgraded to Digital Cable (but without the HD capability) than there are with HD boxes, or viewing HD off air. Those viewers are now able to receive both our DT, and ThinkAgain services. In testing that we did here in the station, we found that once we had degenerated our HD signal by adding one multi-cast channel, adding a second channel did not make things look much worse.
post #132 of 14333
Charles,

I'm sure we all have different opinions here but to my eyes, it looks quite a bit worse now that you've added another sub, especially if there is any movement in the scene. When it's really evident, I just change the channel. I refuse to watch degraded pq. I bought into all of this HD stuff for increased picture quality. I suppose I understand your reasoning, but what about when more people DO buy HD capable sets? I think they're going to see the same degradation that we're seeing.

Paul
post #133 of 14333
Quote:


Originally posted by Paul210
what about when more people DO buy HD capable sets?

For us "early adopters," it's going to take a painfully long time, but eventually - when enough people do have the sets - the picture quality battle will land in our favor. Maybe not with PBS stations (their goals are different), but OTA, cable and DSS will be hard-pressed to deliver the best picture.

We saw viewers lured away from OTA because cable offered "a better picture." They were selling ghost and interference-free signals long before they had a wealth of channels to offer. And people bought it. Then DSS came along and the digitally-delivered picture looked superior to that of cable. People bought that. The whole digital-cable movement was launched to plug the whole in the subscriber dike.

HDTV is the next bragging-rights battleground. The DSS companies know it and the cable companies are quickly catching on. Broadcasters - stubborn as they can be - will get the picture (pun intended), eventually, too. When you think of how much money they blow on Doppler radar systems just to have "the best," you know, once the PQ battle starts, they'll do the same with HDTV.

But, you're right: it won't happen until HDTV sets are as ubiquitous as stereo televisions are, now. Actually, it won't happen until the TV station GM is on the golf course with a potential $100K/mo client/HDTV owner who says, "My commercials don't look as good on your station as they do on the other station. Why is that?" The subchannels will disappear the very next day.

Doc
post #134 of 14333
I had recurring pixalation with Monday night Football last night while my OTA signal meter gave a constant 100%. Did anyone else have this problem? Was this a problem with ABC? local? or me?
post #135 of 14333
ItzMe,

Problems with MNF reported all over the country. Check out this link at the HDTV Programming Forum.
post #136 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by Charles Cole
As an engineer at heart, I agree with you on the compression issues. I'd like nothing better than to offer full bandwidth HD to you guys.

That's very good to hear. Appreciate your willingness to address this issue, which is VERY frustrating for us.

Have to say I agree completely with Paul+Doc's posts on this issue. Couple of add'l thoughts.

#1.) I really think stations should be following ATSC recommendations on this issue, and should be sending the 16x9 ATSC format that "matches" what they are doing with muliticasing/datacasting, regardless of what their Net is sending them. If it really is the case that better encoders in the future improve things, then the ATSC recommmendation should be revised when those newer encoders are used -- I haven't seen it yet, though, and as they say, seeing is believing.

1080i = NO mullticasting, NO datacasting beyond what is available as oppurtunistic bandwidth.

720p - HD+1 SD subchannel is fine. HD + Datacasting that used, say 4.39 Mb/s(non-oppurtunistic bandwidth) of the 19.34mb/s available I think would be fine too. In other words, 14~16Mb/s for HD should be fine with 720p. I'm not saying I can't see the difference between what WDTN-DT/WCPO-DT gives us as compared to if they give it the full bandwidth available(such as WDTN-DT did at first), but, I find what they are doing HD wise+1 subchannel presently acceptable.

I'm not sure this is a ATSC recommendation, and I KNOW it isn't HD, but I think 16x9 480p ATSC format+ 2 SD programming services would be fine. I'd certianly much rather have HD, but if a station is going to send 2 SD programming services alongside HD, and therefore limit HD bandwidth to 11~13mb/s or so, I personally would rather see 480p 16x9 than HD full'o' compression artifacts.

Of course, the severity of the problem also often involves how "bandwidth demanding" the source material is. So, if say WKRC-DT would just switch to 720p for HD football/sports/etc, it would be an improvement -- But, then again, I've seen artifacts be a problem during "CSI", too.

While technically, I suppose you could still call it HD, if it is plagued by compression artifacts such as what we get during HD Football due to limited HD bandwidth from WKRC-DT/WHIO-DT during CBS Football, or just about anytime(even during upconverted widescreen programs) from any of the 3 current local PBS DTV stations, it just doesn't Look like HD anymore. Except when "stuff" doesn't move.

I can see the problem on a 17" PC monitor being Fed HD, from several feet away. Of course, it's much worse on my larger 38" HD display.

#2.) You guys are talking about "HD capable" displays and viewers, but I would submit that viewers will benefit who own any display that can support any higher rez than 480i 4x3 SD. 16x9 content sent via ANY of the 16x9 ATSC formats is an improvement over 16x9 content letterboxed inside a 4x3 frame, via ATSC or NTSC. There are 16x9 480p "ED" sets, and there are 4x3 HD and ED displays which support the full "rez" of 480p/i 16x9 ATSC formats via "vertical compression", and I'd think 16x9 sent as ATSC HD format would look decent(although not HD) on those sets too.

Granted, presently, most of the sets out there ARE 4x3 480i SD only sets, and, unfortunetly, there are even quite a few HD/ED capable sets which are being used for NOTHING excecpt to display 4x3 SD programming(perhaps besides your occasional, so called "anamorphic" DVD.) There should be fewer and fewer of the latter, as they finally figure out they are not really "seeing" HD or anything that closely approximates HD, and these folks(hopefully) really "upgrade" to HD. And in the future, due to tuner mandate and Plug and play agreement, HD/ATSC capability(for OTA AND digital cable in most circumstances) will be "built into" sets.

I'm thinking that in the future also, many, if not most 25" and above displays will have will have some "enhanced capability" to display resolutions greater than just 480i 4x3 SD. I could be wrong though.

16x9 sent as letterboxed inside a 480i 4x3 frame is definitely "low resolution" or, "low definition". Granted, we all know what DTV transistion is all about, but there is an oppurtunity here to improve television, and I'd like to see more of that happening. I don't personally call HD full of compression artifacts at 11mb/s or so an improvement.

#3). Certianly, I'm going to choose to watch a station which broadcasts 1080i at 18mb/s over the same programming at 480p at 11mb/s. However, I would CERTIANLY also choose the 480p station at 11mb/s vs. 1080i(or 720p for that matter) at 11mb/s -- probably even 15 mb/s if demanding source material such as HD football was being broadcast ..... HD just doesn't look like HD if it's full of compression artifacts, or if HD is "softened" to make compression artifacts less noticable ....
post #137 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Anyone's DTV receiver seeing WPTD-DT tonight? Went to tune in at 8pm, and noticed neither of my receiver's could see them .... Checked 58 on a analog, non-screen muting TV and, instead of the "snow" I should be seeing, I'm seeing something tonight I've never seen before(see attached pic).

Update: Seeing WPTD-DT just fine again now at 9:45pm. I wonder what the heck that was though -- It looked consistant with WPTD-DT's signal, and was definitely coming from that direction.
LL
post #138 of 14333
Someplace I worked - I can't remember where - used to use VCRs to backup data, much like a computer tape backup works, now. If you'd put one of those backup tapes in your home VCR, that's exactly what the picture looked like.

Not that that helps you any..

Doc
post #139 of 14333
Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Anyone's DTV receiver seeing WPTD-DT tonight? Went to tune in at 8pm, and noticed neither of my receiver's could see them .... Checked 58 on a analog, non-screen muting TV and, instead of the "snow" I should be seeing, I'm seeing something tonight I've never seen before

While I can't address what you were seeing... The problem was written up here as "Transmitter problem. Fixed at 21:15"
post #140 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Interesting! And yes, it did very much look like a "analog view" of something digital.

Anyway, just glad it apparently didn't turn out to be too serious of a problem. I did some quick "tuning around" when it was happening, and it didn't seem like the signal went out-of-channel. "Clean snow" and good signals everywhere else they were supposed to be.

Another interesting thing I didn't mention was that the audio "behaved" pretty much like it would if there were a FM station on the air with carrier but no programming, although you could tell the Tuner AFT was wondering a bit -- On the audio side instead of white noise as I would have expected, I had silence ...
post #141 of 14333
The Monday Night football game had reception problems on my set. Did anyone have problem reception? I finally switched to the Direct TV feed. I generally get a great picture on ABC. I did not check the meter to see if it was my set or the feed. It was raining in Green Bay.

LL
post #142 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Laird, it wasn't a reception problem, it was a problem at ABC with the HD feed. See Itzme and Gerhard911's post on the last page, as well as the thread at link Gerhard911 posted.
post #143 of 14333
Quote:


Originally posted by Charles Cole
The problem was written up here as "Transmitter problem. Fixed at 21:15"

You get those, too?? Can't count the number of times I've come in to just a piece of cellophane tape across a CD player or some other piece of equipment, requiring me to perform a CSI-style investigation to determine what the problem really is (there's usually NOTHING written up on the engineering log). Frequently, it's little more than a connector pulled loose or a cranky machine in need of a reboot. But it'll sit there all weekend like that.

Doc
post #144 of 14333
Thanks Jeff

LL
post #145 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Just ran across some bad news in the abstract of article ("NBC, Affils Forecast DTV Weather Channel"). at following link :

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...ate=11/17/2003

Here's a quote from the article

: "I don't think there is a TV station in the affiliate body that would say there is anything more strategic than weather," says Hearst-Argyle Television Executive Vice President Terry Mackin, who chairs the joint futures committee of NBC and its affilia..."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sigh. I'm especially disappointed in the above, as, except for the short time we had PBS HD in all it's "glory" from WCET-DT in Dec 2002, WLWT-DT was once(not long ago) the place in Cincinnati/Dayton to see 1080i HD unencumbered by macroblocking -- Unfortunetly, the only times this was especially evident from NBC/WLWT-DT was during 2002 HD winter Olympics, and 2002 Triple crown.

Anyhow, seeing the above reminded me that I saw the ol' "screen door" effect in a couple of fast moving sections of "ER" in HD the past couple of weeks from WLWT-DT ... So, since WLWT-DT's Weather radar is still up, I sent them a note this afternoon asking them to drop the SD subchannel, for all the good it will do.

I guess as long as WXIX-DT sticks to giving everything to a single program service, I'll be switching channels quite often to Fox, and FOX HD probably in a year or so ... Of course ABC HD/ HD from WCPO-DT/WDTN-DT is "more or less" fine too, since they are doing 720p, there is room for 1 SD subchannel ...
post #146 of 14333
As consumers we have been programmed to accept mediocrity. Among many other things this applies to channel bugs and reduced bitrate HD. I'm very pessimistic that this will change (for the better) in the future. I see all broadcasters participating in the heinous practice of broadcasting subchannels (as they currently do with channel bugs). The vast majority of consumers will not know the difference between full bitrate HD and the degraded HD that will be universally broadcast.

Pay channels are the only hope. But with the very likely possibility that cable and satellite companies will engage in additional compression & bit rate reduction of HD signals to make room for even more crap channels, I'm becoming very depressed about the future of HD.

And I'm not buying into the "influential advertiser" theory espoused here in the past. If the station's got the ratings, that's all the advertiser cares about, they couldn't care less about PQ
post #147 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by gerhard911
If the station's got the ratings, that's all the advertiser cares about, they couldn't care less about PQ

PQ IS important to advertisers, because advertisers know that people will (unconsiously or consciously) often tune into the stations which have good PQ. When their New Car ad becomes a blur of unrecognizable macroblocks in HD, believe me, they will be concerned.

I share your concerns, though. It doesn't help that many people are accustomed to the poor SD PQ that is often available via Cable(analog+digital) and DBS. I can't tell you the number of times that folks have come into my house, and have commented that the ANALOG PQ they see is the "best picture quality" they've seen. They allways ask who my cableco is, and sometimes they still don't believe me when I take them outside and POINT OUT the antenna.
post #148 of 14333
Quote:


Originally posted by DrDon

But, you're right: it won't happen until HDTV sets are as ubiquitous as stereo televisions are, now. Actually, it won't happen until the TV station GM is on the golf course with a potential $100K/mo client/HDTV owner who says, "My commercials don't look as good on your station as they do on the other station. Why is that?" The subchannels will disappear the very next day.

Doc

Couldn't agree more Doc - when the station GM gets a 50" HDTV, and if he's an football fanatic, and see's the incredibly poor picture quality of the CBS HD games, then the station bandwidth deficiencies will be addressed.

I'm gonna throw a party for this years Super Bowl, with as much the intent of offering friends the SB on HD, my only reservation is it's on CBS. But when the camera is on something not in heavy motion, the picture looks brilliant, if even only for a second or so. Unfortunately, football games usually have quite a bit of fast moving action. I'm hoping that the friends will have enuff booze in them to think it's their eyes playing the games on them, and not the TV.

Fingers are crossed that the GM will turn into an HD fanactic, like maybe tomorrow, and either give us more BW, or move it to a 720p feed.. The best hopes of mice and men -

hp
post #149 of 14333
I think you'll find your friends are less observant than you are. My neighbors come over week after week to see the NFL CBS games and, while not as bad on DirecTV as it is on WKRC-DT, there are still plenty of artifacts. All they say is "wow." Most can't even tell when an SD camera is in use. I have one neighbor who has finally figured out the difference between HD and Fox Widescreen. He can tell. Took him a year. And he's an engineer!

I'm starting to doubt my GM argument. I now think it'll be the GM's SON who has the first HD set in the house (or in his own house). "Hey, dad. Your picture STINKS." Again, it'll be fixed the next day .

Doc
post #150 of 14333
No matter who tells the GM "your picture stinks", if there is a revenue stream attached to the reason why it stinks, I seriously doubt it will get "fixed". It might, however, get "tweaked" a bit within the confines of whatever is taking away bandwidth from the HD broadcast.

In my previous post I should have been more specific with my comment about advertisers and PQ. I intended the comment to refer to the difference in PQ between full bandwidth HD and what we are currently getting from WKRC-HD. Of course they would complain about a picture that's "an unrecognizable blur of macro blocks".

I believe that Doc's observation about his neighbors substantiates my contention. We are fanatics and expect perfection. The vast majority will be perfectly happy with the degraded HD they will receive.
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