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Cincinnati, OH - HDTV - Page 6

post #151 of 14333
I had a friend over the other night...he hadn't seen my new TV yet. I turned it on and he said "wow!" I looked and it was some 4:3 compressed SDTV crap coming off the TiVo (even more compression). I shook my head and wondered why I was bothering.

When I flipped over to the cable feed and popped up DiscoveryHD, his eyes bugged and he didn't say anything for about a minute and a half. I was happier.

Then, about 20 minutes later I flipped over to a channel with a decent-quality SD feed and he said "wow...HD sure looks nice." [sigh] Pearls before swine ;-p
post #152 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by gerhard911
I intended the comment to refer to the difference in PQ between full bandwidth HD and what we are currently getting from WKRC-HD. Of course they would complain about a picture that's "an unrecognizable blur of macro blocks".

That's what I'm talking about too, I took your comment as it was intended. If "portions" of my Ad looks like HD does on WKRC-HD during certain portions of HD football(and again, I've even seen it happen during CSI), I'd be complaining. I probably shouldn't have used the word "unrecognizable", as of course we know what we are looking at, just as is the case when rushing water on the local PBS HD stations is chock full o' macroblocks due to too little bandwidth being allocated to HD.

I do know My 77 Year old Father with cataracts sees the problem from 15 feet away from a 38" HD display. He doesn't have a "golden eye". It is NOT a subtle thing.
post #153 of 14333
Hello fellow Cincinnatians.

I looking to purchase a HDTV box for over the air reception. Do any of you have a recomendation?

I am looking at the RCA ATSC11 or 21, or the LG LST-3100a. I am not sure if I need the NTSC tuner with the box or not. I don't have cable nor do I plan on getting it. I like my TV free!!

With just the ATSC tuner, will I be able to watch anything at any time and still get a good picture? Seeing how not everything is in HD, I'm worried about watching non-HD broadcast and still getting a decent picture.

Let me know what your experience is.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Mark.
post #154 of 14333
Mark..
I have a Samsung T-151 as my SECOND tuner just for SD broadcasts. The ATSC transmission of either standard-definition programming (WB64, WCVN, WCET) or upconverted programming comes out studio quality on a standard television. The only way to get a better picture is to be watching off of the studio monitors down at the station. All but WXIX do a good job of upconverting. WXIX-DT seems to have a lot more jaggies than, say, WLWT. You'll be thrilled.

To all ...on another matter..

Spoke with a promotions person at WSTR (WB64) and learned some interesting things. The reason they're not passing WB's HD programming is that, according to their most recent figures - which, he admitted, could be a year old or more - the number of Cincinnatians able to receive HDTV broadcasts is in - and I quote - "the single digits." He said I was the first person he'd ever met who owned an HDTV. Fortunately, while I was in our lobby talking to him, half of our staff walked up and chimed in, "Oh, I've got one." "So do I." "Me, too." He was flabbergasted.

He's supposed to be sending me his e-mail address and wants me to forward that to "viewers with HDTVs." I told him we've all written to the feedback address at wb64.net, but he says letters left there never reach management.

So, if you'd be interested in campaigning, let me know and I'll post it as soon as I get it.

Doc
post #155 of 14333
Howdy to all fellow HD cincy viewers!

Quick question, does anyone else get "vibration" from WXIX-DT? I can only compare it to a computer monitor that needs an adjustment to the refresh rate. All other OTA DT channels in Cincy look fine, just WXIX. The signal quality is locked at 69%. (Could be better with a pre-amp)

Any suggestions would be appreciated.


FYI - Using a Rat Shack 80" boom in attic, no preamp, and about 50ft or so of RG-6 (best guess). I know I getting loss in the run...had DT rec. at antenna on install, got 100% signal qual. on WLWT and WKRC, and in the 90s for WXIX and WCPO...until adding the long run. Considering a preamp.
post #156 of 14333
Regarding WXIX--I also get a subtle but noticeable jitter (flicker?). I first noticed it during the baseball playoff games and football games. It seems worse on telephoto shots where the camera might be experiencing some movement of its own. I'm not as aware of it on filmed programming. I assumed it was a problem with the fact they transmit in 480p and thought my receiver (Samsung TS160) was having a hard time upconverting the signal.
post #157 of 14333
Yeah, I was kinda guessing it was a problem with the upconversion. Unfortunately, I see the "jitter" all of the time.
post #158 of 14333
I notice the jitter on WXIX-DT all the time. It drives me crazy. I thought they were upconverting to 1080i though.
post #159 of 14333
Thread Starter 
VWNut,

Also, Anything that's called a "TV set" or "VCR" already has a NTSC tuner in it which you can receive the analog stations with. For the most part, the Cincy digital stations are up 24/7, but WXIX-DT currently "generally" is on the air only from 12pm~12am, and WCET-DT only operates 8am-11pm. Analog WCET goes off air at about 12:30am every night, too.

WBQC-CA 25(UPN Cincy - supposed to be moving to 38 "soon" and increasing power), WOTH-LP 38(Home shopping Cincy - will be moving to 25 sometime soon) and W61DE(61 TBN translator cincy) are only currently on the air with analog signals, they probably won't have digital stations for a few years yet.

WKOI(TBN - Tower between Oxford+Trenton, Oh) Has a digital station, but their directional antenna's pattern doesn't favor your direction - WPTO-DT (PBS/ThinkTV - Analog is on 14 broadcasting from Oxford) isn't on air yet, but will be broadcasting from WXIX tower, right now looks like sometime in Jan/feb.

Anyhow From Ft. Thomas, you should be good to go for hopefully fairly easy reception of the everything else from Cincy -- Maybe even Dayton with a decent antenna setup. Except for a LP religious station that's too LP to pull in from KY anyway, all the Dayton stations have digital stations on the air 24/7.

Doc,

Thanks for the WSTR info. Might as well send me the contact info for the WSTR guy.

All,

I'm pretty sure WXIX-DT is still upconverting everything to 1080i. For the most part, The "jaggies" Doc is referring to are most noticable here for some reason when I output from receiver at 480i to a "plain old SD TV", and only when they are doing local/Syndicated programming. I've never seen the jaggies when they are "correctly" passing though the Fox digital programming.

Also, I have seen the jitter too, but it's been a long time -- Last time I recall seeing it was during a couple of NFL games last season, and even then I've only seen it on a PC monitor being Fed either 1080i, 720p, or 480p, don't think I ever have seen it on my "main" HD display.

Speaking of WXIX-DT, don't know what happened to them on Sunday, but noticed they were in "weirdscreen mode" for Fox News Sunday, then NFL pregame was widescreen and fine, Then, for the TB game, instead of widescreen as it was supposed to be, it looked to be the same video that was on the analog station --- Same thing for Fox prime on Sunday(which was the case the week before too, I assume because of a game delay).

---------------

Hopefully we'll get to see the Bengals in HD or Fox widescreen soon. And Poppo reported on S.O.A.S. Sunday night that MNF called them and asked for 'Cpo's game highlights ... Something that hasn't happened in a Loooong time! So, if nothing else, we should have a good shot of seeing Bengals in HD on MNF Next year. Also, OT, but heard on the Bengals radio show that NFL films was doing some work at the game on Sunday ..
post #160 of 14333
Jeff,

This is my first post in AVSForum. I've been lurking for a while.

Regarding the Bengals, The Bengals/Chiefs were the HD game of the week last night on the NFL channel (84 on D*). They had the game condensed to an hour with tons of sideline and locker room scenes. Very nice. Not a scene out of focus and multiangles on Peter Warwick's TDs.

Greg
post #161 of 14333
Greg..
Yeah, guess I should have posted something over here.. there's a thread on it going over in Programming. I'm wondering if it replays today. Last week, they re-ran it at 4pm ..which is when I watch it, thanks to my stupid hours.

Doc
post #162 of 14333
Thread Starter 
I'd seen that thread on Bengals/Chiefs game in programming area, I probably should have mentioned it too ... Not sure, but you guys are probably seeing the first Bengals HD footage to be broadcast ...

Greg,

Welcome to AVSforum! Did you get that Delhi VIP-307SR up yet? It's probably the best broadband VHF ch 2-13 out there, where directivity+Gain are concerned. I know a fellow down in Lexington that uses one, he has a nice pic of it about 1/2 way down this page:

http://www.dxfm.com/Content/tools.htm

It's pattern is similar(actually, I think its even a little "tighter" if I remember right) than the gain pattern graphic of the APS-13 FM antenna also shown on that page. BTW, lots of other nifty stuff on his website, main page is:

http://www.dxfm.com
post #163 of 14333
Jeff, I just wrote a 4900 character reply and the system ate the message. So I'll give you the short form.

I have not put it on my 35' tower, but have tested it on a 10' pole.

With CM7776 preamp and ch 2 and 7 jointennas to knock down the local VHF stations, I can pick up Chs 11 and 13 from Toledo pretty well. When I get it up on the tower, I hope the range will be even better, I fully expect to get a reasonable VHF signals from Indianapolis with a possible shot at WISH-DT if WCPO doesn't interfere.

It significantly improved Chs 4, 6, 9, 10, and 12. Didn't do much for Ch 5 as the big problem there appears to be impulse noise.

Greg
post #164 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Sounds like you're in for some fun during Band openings.

If you haven't seen it yet, another one you might want to look for would be WLIO-DT 8 out of Lima, OH - If WISH 8 doesn't noise it up too much. Last I heard, They're running quite LP, at something like 460 watts ERP with antenna nowhere near as high as their analog on 35, but I'd say you've got a shot at seeing them, at least with a little tropo scatter.
post #165 of 14333
Recently, I've been getting frequent audio dropouts of about 1 second on WKRC-DT OTA. Right now, the problem is occurring on the Cleveland-Pittsburgh NFL game. No problem on the other local channels or via DirecTV.

Anyone else seeing this?

My setup is Sony HD200 receiver that is video connected via DVI to a Sony TV and audio connected via optical to a Denon 4802 receiver.

Thanks,
AJ
post #166 of 14333
AJ..
Hmmm. Only ran with the Steelers game on WCRC-DT for the first half and didn't notice anything. I watched via analog for the 2nd half (so I could dedicate the tuner to a different Sunday Ticket game). Watched most of "60 Minutes" via 31 with no dropouts, either.

Doc
post #167 of 14333
On the WBQC move to channel 38, an Enquirer article had the move being made before November 1st. That oviously hasn't happened. I called the station, and the receptionist, for what it's worth, indicated that the move won't happen until the first of the year.
post #168 of 14333
Thread Starter 
FYI, I've updated first post of this thread to point to the links to past Cincy threads which are now in the avsforum archive area.

-------------------

Doc,

I think they should have called it "90 minutes" last night ;-) - At least in Cincy and Dayton. That's 2 Sundays in a row with no CBS HD as scheduled, I'm guessing because of 4pm Games running over.

---------------------

Clarke,

Thanks for the info. I guess all we can do is wait and see when it happens. Dates subject to change of course, but FCC CDBS database indicates WOTH-LP's current STA for 38 expires on 12/11/03, and WBQC-CA's CP for 38 Expires on 12/31/04.
post #169 of 14333
I saw something slightly wrong with WKRC-DT from here in north of Dayton. Seemed to have skipping frames and slight audio pops frequently during pre-game and first half. I switched to WHIO-DT for most of the game with no problems. I did tune back to WKRC-DT later in the day and all was well. I was using my Zenith HD520, which is a close 'kin' to your Sony. It might be something receiver specific. Signal level/quality seemed a little lower than normal, but was of decent level overall.

Greg

Quote:


Originally posted by AJ500
Recently, I've been getting frequent audio dropouts of about 1 second on WKRC-DT OTA. Right now, the problem is occurring on the Cleveland-Pittsburgh NFL game. No problem on the other local channels or via DirecTV.

post #170 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Some good news(at least for now) ... Received a reply from WLWT's DOE concerning their SD Radar sub. He said they will be turning off the SD sub for the time being(I take it that means very soon) .. But he also said, "who knows what the future holds".

I guess that's the question on all of our minds where allocating enough bandwidth to HD is concerned, especially since a number of stations in our area aren't allocating enough bandwidth to HD currently. Of course, I understand that broadcasters have a business to run, and it only makes sense that they are trying to make the most of things. But, IMO, they really should pay close attention to ATSC recommendations on this issue.

----------------------------------------

Oh, concerning WKRC-DT on Sunday afternoon, I can't give a very good report as I was also was watching either WHIO-DT, or the analogs - the latter because I prefer listening to Radio Coverage of Bengals game, as the audio synch's up better with the analog. I did watch 60 minutes and recorded the movie on WKRC-DT Sunday night, and I didn't see any problems on a RCA DTC-100 or Zenith HDV420 at that time.
post #171 of 14333
Jeff.
I'll bet it all hinges on must-carry rules. No point in fronting a "weather network" or some other stream if 50% of the homes can't see it. But I can't see forcing subchannel must-carry rules on cable outlets when it's possible every broadcaster in the viewing area could pump out five channels. While that's a lot, here, imagine Chicago, LA or cities with twice as many broadcast outlets as we have. Let's just hope Washington sees it the same way. If they do, then we're back to PQ issues and we all know which way THAT table will eventually tilt.

On the matter of dropped frames, it's probably only a coincidence, but the CBS-fed HD NFL game on DirecTV has similar issues every week. The 5.1 will go away for a second, then come back. The picture may blink, too. A couple of times CBS put up the SD feed of the game until the problems ceased. I know that's not the same thing WKRC was sending, but it made me think about it.

Doc
post #172 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Doc,

Yeah. Seems to me that cable carriage of mulitple programming services should be an issue of negotiation between the cableco+broadcaster. If there's a demand, or perceived "need" for the multicast programming service, then I'd think the cableco will likely want it.

On the other hand, It's a different situation with non-comms, but unfortunetly(for PBS HD viewers anyway) the PBS affiliates in our area have shown they don't need must carry for the cableco's to carry all their SD program services, such as "PBS Kids". So, for whatever reason, Cable evidently wants PBS kids, and evidently doesn't mind PBS HD/Widescreen Chock full o' macroblocks, and yet(the way I understand it anyway, I could be wrong) they won't carry Fox Widescreen because it isn't HD. Go figure.
post #173 of 14333
Which is why we are running 720p instead of 1080i.

Back to lurking....

William
post #174 of 14333
Thread Starter 
I think using 720p is a better choice than 1080i for KET4 - To me, it looks like compression artifacts are less of a problem overall on KET4 than is the case with CET HD or Think16 HD. But, I'd think 480p(unfortunetly) would be an even better choice for all 3 stations -- Although, of course, then it wouldn't be HD, and we wouldn't get that beautiful HD picture when the HD programming isn't all that bandwidth demanding(I.e. things aren't moving around too much).

Even better would be if it was 720p on KET4+KET1 Only. If only that could ever work .....

Also, It's likely my equipment+the fact that my display is native 1080i, but 720p from KET4 does usually look soft in comparison to 1080i from WCET-DT or WPTD-DT. For some reason, I'm not getting that from WCPO/WDTN-DT's ABC 720p, at least not to the degree I expected when WCPO-DT was upconverting to 1080i. Although, at times(not allways) WCPO-DT's HD does look "sharper" than WDTN-DT. If ABC's planned SD Newschannel ends up happening, I wonder what WCPO-DT will do? If they carry it, for example, what happens to their weather subchannel ....

Anyhow, looking forward to "Farm Aid" in HD tonight on KET4, WCET-DT+WPTD-DT, If its DD 5.1, will have to choose between PQ + Audio, as WCET-DT has been in "DD 5.1" mode lately.

------------------------------------

Oh, at 11:40am, I'm pleased to see ABC HD from Both WCPO-DT/WDTN-DT AND WXIX-DT is in Fox Widescreen Mode already!
post #175 of 14333
If its in DD5.1 from PBS its in DD5.1 on KET4... It never goes to analog..

William
post #176 of 14333
Thread Starter 
I'll check it tonight, but so far, of the 14 Cincy/Dayton DTV stations I've only "heard" WPTD-DT, WCET-DT and WDTN-DT do Discrete 5.1 channel Audio - DD 5.1.

So far, I've only heard DD 2.0 ("Prologic" - Surround sound is "encoded" into 2 discrete channels - Doesn't have to be an analog source) from WCVN-DT and the rest ... Besides hearing it, my decoder will tell me what I'm getting too ...

Of course, don't know if the program tonight was produced in DD 5.1, which it would need to be. This season's "Soundstage" shows usually have been.

More info here:

http://www.dolby.com/digital/

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update 10pm :

Wasn't able to get to the setup here with more than 2 channel audio, or any indication of "what's what" until 9:45pm at which time this is what I found:

WCVN-DT/KET4 - "True DD 5.1" -- Sounds Great! Maybe my memory is fuzzy, but this is the first time I can recall this happening.

WCET-DT/CET-HD - Decoder says it's DD 5.1 -- But it's 2 Channel audio only(L+R front).

WPTD-DT/ThinkDTV HD - DD 2.0/Prologic.
post #177 of 14333
Thoughts, notes and a rant..

Kudos to WLWT-DT for being on top of the Harry Connick special. But you can sure tell they're running a subchannel, now. WKEF apparently didn't get the memo.

Still WLWT-DT's concert had fewer artifacts that WKRC-DT's football game. And that was tied with Farm Aid on WCET-DT. Rather pathetic. I can't wait for the PQ battles to start. What's really funny is that, in the short run, WXIX-DT will probably win if they clear Fox-HD, next fall without a subchannel. Their "necessary evil" attitude toward DTV just might play to our favor. (although it was annoying losing the sound to "24" for a whole segment, this week)

I guess it's good that those coming into HDTV are still experiencing the WOW factor, but it's also a shame it may be a while before they see what we early birds got to see early on... the PBS demo loop uncompressed... Leno on a full channel or even HDNet on DirecTV when it had a whole transponder to itself. Man, those were some beautiful pictures.

The broadcasters are setting themselves up to be one-upped by cable, again. At least in the short run. .

Doc [/vent]
post #178 of 14333
I updated my original Insight HD post because the minimum cost is higher. Insight will not let you take just the HD box ($2.00), you also have to take the digital box ($7.95).

Here is my evaluation of the HD pack:

774 - Bravo HD+ is mostly arts (plays, performance) and Salt Lake City Olympic reruns, in top HD quality.

775 - ESPN HD has virtually no real HD programming, other that one weekend college and pro football game and their Playmakers drama/soap opera. It is a simulcast of regular ESPN SD 4x3 channel, stretched to fill a 16x9 frame. I refuse to watch stretched material. What happened to the $30 million for 60 HD cameras? Are they all going in the new studio in Bristol? Where are they already. That phony "NBA in HD" banner at the season opener was BS -- stretched SD is all they showed. More BS is all the commercials that are on that are supposed to look 16x9 HD to 3x4 SD viewers, but are lame little postage stamps in the middle of real HD screens, like my 4x3, 36" Sony XBR 1080i.

776 - Discovery HD Theater has all HD all the time. Very nice to watch some shows on insects in HD. Not such a big deal to watch home renovation in HD. They have original programming too, and do not upconvert non-HD shows from the regular Discover channel. Top HD quality.

777 - HD Net also has all HD material. They will show a variety of shows, some educational, some HD loops to fill time, some original programming, occasional HD sports. Some is upconverted (Hogan's Heroes), but it is very little--I hardly ever see any non-native HD. Top HD quality.

778 - HD Net Movies are upconverted. Certiainly none were filmed in HD. Nevertheless, the pictures are cleaned up and there are fewer film artifacts than your normal SD presentation, it seems. Comparing the upconverted material to native HD makes you appreciate the difference. I don't know if this is any better than a digital picture. Decent picture, but not real HD quality.

You guys who hunt and peck for the maybe-once-a-month over-the-air movie upconvert should consider HDNet Movies, 24-hours a day of the stuff. The movies are shown several times, like a premium channel.

The new Insight HD box with built-in PVR (for recording in HD) is rolling out Monday, December 1. Call Cory at Insight, 431-0300 x.250, and he will waive the installation fee for those who already have the old boxes. Maybe he can help the newbies too, I don't know.

I may drop the HD pack, but seeing how I paid for the original install and considering how much I dislike commercials, it may be around awhile longer. IT'S ALL COMMERCIAL FREE, except for ESPN. There are a couple of shows I am looking forward to, like the martial arts special on Discovery HD Theater in a week or two, and the John Wooden college basketball classic this Saturday, with Louisville v. Iowa, and Indiana v. Xavier. That'll be my first basketball in HD, which should be awesome. College basketball was a major reason I got the HD service. I don't know when ESPN will start showing any.
post #179 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by DrDon
Still WLWT-DT's concert had fewer artifacts that WKRC-DT's football game. And that was tied with Farm Aid on WCET-DT. Rather pathetic.

I'll rant on a little too, since you made such a fine post.

Anyhow, Yeah. Pathetic is right. I thought certian portions of Farm Aid HD looked pretty bad on all 3 local stations. Enjoyed the TB vs. Detroit game in Fox Widescreen on WXIX-DT though. No compression artifact problems there, even though they upconvert to 1080i. Hope it stays that way after Fox goes HD.

Anyhow, go figure, even though ATSC recommendations seem pretty clear on this issue(to me anyway), I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe at this point they just don't really know how BAD it looks at those times when the source material is especially demanding. One thing I've heard is, "most of the programming we run doesn't require the "full bandwidth" ... Well, that just doesn't cut it, since portions of HD programming which DOES require say, 18mb/s for 1080i, 15~16mb/s for 720p can creep in AT ANY TIME.

I think everyone(GM's. CE's, Salesreps,) at the local stations should be required to sit and watch a loop lasting a couple of hours of their reduced bandwidth HD on a ~25~40" HD display. Another display sitting beside it with 1080HD at 18~19mb/s, and 720p at 15~19mb/s would make for a nice comparision too. Here's some of the programming that could go in the loop:

1.) Shot from "Tropicana Juice Train" Tracks Ahead Episode of oranges going down a conveyor belt ...
3.) The "Dancing Indian" in Neil Young's Farm aid set.
4.) All the portions of CBS HD football/CSI/etc. that suffer from compression artifacts due to too little bandwidth allocated by WKRC-DT/WHIO-DT.

Heck,IMO, even 480i NTSC ANALOG looks better than the "squeezed HD bandwidth" version of the above mentioned HD "excepts".

Lots of other examples which could also go into this loop, -- Waterfalls, White Water on the Colorado river/etc ... Basically, whenever the camera, or anything in the frame "moves around" fairly quickly, especially when there is a lot of detail -- I've even noticed a lot of the PBS Widescreen material ends up really chock full o' macroblocks, since its being upconverted to HD anyway .....
post #180 of 14333
Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
they just don't really know how BAD it looks

I may have mentioned this, before -- and I don't know about the other stations -- but there's not one HDTV in the whole WKRC studio/control room area. Not one. Not in Master Control, not in the newsroom.. nowhere. The only set in the whole building is a Sony direct view in the reception area which, you know, is most likely off on the weekends. So, if they never see it, it's no surprise they don't know how poor it looks.

Yeah, they should be required to watch. For that matter, Master Control should at least have a monitor beyond the 4:3 480i 5" rack-mount one they're using (The HD picture is squeezed onto the monitor)

Doc
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