Cincinnati, OH - HDTV - Page 7

If it were my choice, given the circumstances involved for KET digital presently, I'd likely chose 480p for KET4 during "HD/PBS Widescreen" programming. Couple of reasons :

#1). At least presently, much of the PBS 16x9 programming broadcast at 720p on KET4 is SD widescreen source material anyhow.

#2) I'd of course prefer HD, but since I'm not being given the choice of 1080i HD at 18mb/s+, or 720p HD at 14~16mb/s .... I'd rather see "compression artifact free" 480p than a dancing Indian that turns into macroblocks at 720p. To me, even 480p 16x9 ATSC format is a BIG improvement over letterboxing 16x9 programming inside a 4x3 "SD" frame.

Of course, that's just me, and without actually seeing it to see what it looks like at 480p. The only time I've seen 480p 16x9 ATSC format was via KET4 before you upgraded your STL for "full bandwidth" ATSC, so I'm just guessing it looks "pretty much" like a DVD via component video with 16x9 NTSC Video scanned at 480p.

Of course, others might have a different opinion, perhaps especially others whose only available source for PBS HD is KET4. Just a suggestion, but, if it doesn't cause too much "difficulty" maybe you could try it at 480p and see what viewers think ...

Granted, 720p from KET4 looks better, overall, compression artifact wise than the present state of 1080i from WCET-DT and WPTD-DT. But, when especially demanding sections of HD programming are involved, at least to my eyes, there doesn't usually appear to be all that much of a difference in artifacts among the 3 stations, presently.


I believe it, especially since I remember some of it. I should have provided more clarification, but my earlier comments concerning station personel watching HD from their stations certianly wasn't meant to be directed at KET engineers, or any broadcast engineer at the local stations for that matter.

Also, I certianly appreciate the DTV/HD work by yourself+others at KET. When you first started doing HD earlier this year, I thought 720p was the best thing you could have done, and was the best overall compromise given the circumstances involved. But, now I think there's just no escaping the fact 720p really needs more bandwidth than you can allocate to HD given KET's present "DTV situation".


I certianly understand that KET is in a "unique" situation DTV wise --- For example, where providing educational programming to schools is concerned, and also on the technical side of things to "feed" KET1 statewide analog transmitters and WKMJ/KET2 transmitter/etc ... The way I understand it, KET's situation is not common to the other local PBS affiliates here.

Personally, where KET digital specifically is concerned, I'm just glad to have "snow free" and dropout free reception of KET1 via OTA DTV from my location, as I've been watching KET1 with "snow" via WCVN 54 for some 20 years, mostly for programming produced by KET which I enjoy. Where PBS HD is concerned, I'd be happy if just ONE of the 4 local PBS stations would allocate "enough" bandwidth to HD so compression artifacts aren't a problem. It doesn't HAVE to be KET, especially since there will soon be 3 PBS digital affiliates broadcasting from towers within 6 miles of each other in Cincinnati/N KY. And, I'm also already happy with WPTD-DT/ThinkTV's current HD schedule, as well as their plans to expand their HD service in Janurary.

I guess the thing that gets me is, the stations in the area, for the most part seemed to stay on the air for 30-50+ years by broadcasting a SINGLE program service per station. Now, with HD, the quality of service I'm getting is often suffering because broadcasters want to have their cake and eat it too.

For instance (not in KET's circumstance as I understand it), it seems broadcasters want to reduce HD quality(and therefore reduce their level of service to me, in my case as an over-the-air viewer) so they can be a provider of multiple SD services to cablecos+their subscribers, or to serve "paying customers" via subscription servies such as datacasting.

As I said before, it's certianly understandable that broadcasters want to make the most out of DTV -- But, like it or not, HD is one of the improvements we are getting from DTV --- An important one for those of us
whom have purchased or will purchase equipment for HD. We expect our local stations to provide "high quality HD", and SD too for that matter. So, it's a pretty hard pill to swallow that whenever "stuff moves around too much", when stations aren't allocating enough bandwidth to HD it ends up being the case(given good "reception") we receive better quality from NTSC analog SD ...

Sure, I'd like it if we could all have our cake and eat it too, I'd like to have compression artifact "free" HD alongside 2, 3 or even 4 SD services with quality programming available from each station "free to air", but we can't.

Beyond available oppurtunistic bandwidth, Multicasting when HD isn't "available", or 720p+1 SD program service(or equivilent bandwith used for datacasting/etc), more RF bandwidth would have been the only way to have our cake and eat it too, and we know that didn't/isn't going to happen.

Also, there is the old saying, "give'em an inch and they'll take a mile", well, in many cases(at least in our area) it's a saying that seems to be very accurate where DTV/HD broadcasting is concerned.

So, I hate to see it happen(and I know this unfortunetly likely won't happen), but since broadcasters can't seem to "figure it out for themselves", what I think really needs to happen is : Picture Quality/Minimum bandwidth standards for OTA HD AND SD via ATSC need to be mandated. And, given the apparent stubborness of many broadcasters on this issue, since this might mean some broadcasters would just "drop HD" because of quality standards, it seems this would also mean HD would need to be mandated.

Just my .02 ....


Good to hear some potentially good news --- That is, if this ends up meaning more HD/PBS widescreen from KET4, or if the HD could get a bit more bandwidth ..

First, off, keep in mind, even though it might say its a "signal strength" meter, it isn't. "Signal Quality meter" is a good way to look at it. Multipath, various interference issues, getting too much signal which is overloading a preamp+causing Intermodulation distortion, or even Front End Tuner Overload, receiver selectivity issues with 1st adjacent channel signals(which shouldn't be an issue for you) could all be things which can cause your signal quality meter to fluctuate as you are seeing, whearas the actual "signal strength" your getting from the station really isn't going to fluctuate.

FWIW, I've not had any problems with WKRC-DT reception(or reception ofanything else for that matter) here, nor have I noticed any change. When the leaves go off trees, I get some ghosting on WKRC 12, but it doesn't seem to effect 31, although of course various "issues" such as multipath can be quite frequency specific.

None of the "good channels" you are getting share WKRC's tower, but WCPO-DT tower is in the same direction ... It's only a block or two away from WKRC. Analogs WBQC 25+WOTH-LP 38 are also on WCPO's tower.

It's a bit Strange though that this is first time you've seen the problem, going through all the seasons over the past year with no problems. So, it Sounds like wind shifting the antenna is a good "hypotheses", and I'd probably check that first, especially if you've noticed any change in quality from any of the analog stations - WBQC, WOTH-LP, WKRC 12 or WCPO 9 specifically. The biggest other possiblility I could think of might be some sort of odd "interference related" issue which is happening.

Anyhow, I did a elevation profile from your location to WKRC tower, and it looks like there is a terrain issue involved, which looks like it could be a factor involved for you as well. If re-orientating the antenna doesn't work, and if you can detirmine it's not a interference/overload issue involved, it might not be a bad idea to try to find a better "sweet spot" for your antenna, or try an antenna with more directivity.

Attached below is the profile, you're at 0 mile marker -- I've drawn in the height of WKRC-DT transmitting antenna as well as the direct "line of sight" signal path --- This doesn't take curvature of Earth into account, so it's actually a little worse than it looks. While this might look bad, from what I've seen, it's really usually quite possible to overcome a fairly minor terrain issue such as this from your distance, especially given WKRC-DT's high power signal -- Hopefully, the wind shifted your antenna a bit, and the "right" antenna aiming will do the trick. Terrain looks the same to WCPO/WCPO-DT tower, but keep in mind, since WCPO is on VHF, it is a longer wavelength, and can more easily "bend" over hills than is the case with UHF.

I'd think it unlikely, but I suppose that its also possible that given your terrain issue, something on the transmission side, such as a little less power output due to a tube going weak or something could be an issue as well -- Although, I've seen no problems here from 32 miles out from their tower, with WKRC-DT's very strong signal -- I can aim quite directional antenna in just about any direction and get them just fine for the most part, even though severe multipath destroys analog reception if antenna is aimed much more than 10-20 degrees off target ..

So, just a lot of guessing, Hope this helps+good luck,

Update: Oh yes -- Seems like from your location you should also be getting WSTR-DT 64.1(33 RF), WXIX-DT 19.1(29 RF) and WCVN-DT 54.x(24 RF) as well, although the terrain issue might even be more of a problem with WCVN-DT. You should be able to get Dayton, too with your antenna aimed that way.

AJ,


Well, CM3677 would seem to be a fine antenna choice for your location. Hard to say, but I doubt if the water tower is causing the problem. 180 degrees should be a good heading to use, for all the Cincy/N Ky stations.

I show all of the transmitters between 174 and 184 degrees (corrected for magnetic deviaition) and between 169 and 179 degree true bearing. WCVN is at 178 degree "magnetic" bearing, about right in the middle, WKRC/WCPO at 174 degrees, and WXIX at 184 degrees. So, One heading should work just fine for all.

Hopefully, the antenna just went a little off target, but aiming right into a tree trunk that's quite nearby isn't the best thing either. Overall though, I'm speculating that the main problem you might be having is the terrain issue involved. So, Finding a "sweet spot" for your antenna, which might involve moving it to the Left, right, or up a bit if at all possible might also be of some benefit ... OR, because of the terrain issue, a little bit "higher gain" antenna may be of use to you overall, especially one that does a bit better job on UHF --- If this is the case, "optimizing" your setup to get best results from Low power analogs on 25, 38 and 61, as well as getting some sort of signal from WCVN might be of benefit. What seems odd about it though, is WKRC-DT puts out the strongest signal of all the area digital stations, So I suppose its even possible you're getting too much signal from them which is overloading your tuner, although I highly doubt it ...Just in case though, putting a 10db or so attenuator just before your receiver would give you an idea if that's the problem. Another thing too, I suppose you might want to check your feedline/connections/etc. to make sure all is well.

Without doing a "field test" and some experimenting though, I really don't have a clue and am just guessing here, so I'm probably really not helping too much .... Experimentation and observation really is key for this sort of stuff, but once you've got a setup which is balanced well with the "RF enviornment in your area, you should be pretty much permantly set.

Anyhow, I'd most definitely guess terrain is an issue for you with WCVN-DT. Their antenna height is some 475-600 Feet lower than the other Cincy digitals, which makes the terrain issue you have in that direction even more of an issue. Attached is your terrain profile to WCVN tower. As you can see, it doesn't look too good ...

Noticed that filings from stations to FCC for "ANNUAL DTV ANCILLARY/SUPPLEMENTARY SERVICES REPORT FOR DIGITAL TELEVISION STATIONS" have recently started popping up on FCC CDBS site ....

If nothing else, at least this will tell us what stations are doing besides free-to air broadcasting, and how much bandwidth they are using for these "extra" services. Well, sort of, remember, some of this stuff can use "oppurtunistic" data - even 1080i HD doesn't need 100% of the available bandwidth 100% of the time. I find the "Gross Revenue" info interesting as well.

So far, of the all Dayton/Cincy stations with FCC 317 forms showing up in CDBS presently, Only WKRC-DT and WCVN-DT reported offering some sort of ancillary/supplementary service via their DTV station.

WKRC-DT filing(info on webhopper) here (I take it "4" means 4 Mb/s) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/w...&fac_num=11289

WCVN-DT datacasting info (I'm assuming 200, 800 etc. is Kb/s, and I assume its oppurtunistic bandwidth) here:

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/w...&fac_num=34204

Its working at 2:20pm -- Some of the FCC stuff does seem to go down every now and then. Also, I had thought those required acrobat reader, but its working without acroread.exe running ...

I'm really looking forward to the time when we can look back on some of this stuff and laugh ... I hope anyway ...

Anyhow, I can report that audio from WXIX-DT was fine last night between 9-10pm.

Here's SOME of my list of "quality" problems from local stations - These are the biggest problems I've seen, and unfortunetly, the first 3 have been pretty "permanent" :

WSTR-DT - Audio was missing during much of the last BB game, it was fine on the analog. Those "rolling bars" are really getting bad at times. They are present in the analog too, but are generally more noticable on the DT. If it weren't for Andy Griffith and KY BB, I could take them out of my surf list. WBDT-DT(WB Dayton) Really has Excellent SD PQ(the best in the area IMO - The analog looks great, but the DT looks even better), and I watch them for WB programming and for their "Daily Buzz" Show. Am looking forward to seeing them do WB HD, which they have said they will be doing at some point.

WRGT-DT - I haven't actually checked this in a while, but I assume the "crease" to left of Fox Bug that goes all the way across the screen is still there ... I also occasionally see herringbone on the analog AND digital, especially during "good day Live"

WPTD-DT - Audio is coming out of Right Channel only on 16.4 (Think14), and its been like that for quite a while.

WKRC-DT had both the CBS Sunday, and Tuesday Movies in HD -- When I checked it, WHIO-DT was missing HD for the Sunday Movie.

WKEF-DT - No NBC HD for the L&O last night, it was fine from WLWT-DT.

This is a OT since its about an analog, but I keep getting variable amounts of intermittant "extra noise" in WBQC 25 signal lately. Comes and goes every few minutes like someone is flipping a switch. It's driving me nuts, especially as I thought it was a problem on my end at first.

Doc,

Thanks for info on WXIX-DT. I've lost track of how many times they've had XMTR trouble. I've been quite busy, but I had noticed they haven't been up since Wed night. I did get a few Blips from them on Thursday every now and then.

No HD-one movie last night, so maybe its tonight. I suppose it could be next week too, though, as I haven't noticed a listing for SD airing at the usual time ..

Ok, I'm not cutting down HDNet Movies --- However, First off, Paramount's HDone movies which are usually shown once a month on WKRC-DT are NOT upconverts. They are True HD. ABC, CBS, NBC have all aired Movies in HD(Not upconverts), on average, probably 1 or 2 movies a week, some being made for TV movies - Mainly from CBS on Sunday Night. HD Movies from ABC/Disney have been lacking lately Mostly because of football playoffs. Anyhow, Last week, for example, was "Miss Congeniality", in HD from CBS as well as Last Sunday's CBS Christmas Movie in HD -- Muppet movie was HD last night on NBC. PBS's Mystery has had "Skinwalkers" and recently the 2nd Skinwalkers installment in HD. The Dayton PBS station airs PBS HD EVERY night, with several airings of each program.

There have also been some excellent movie titles which have aired in HD OTA as well, most with absolutely excellent HD PQ, and quite a few of them uncut. A few examples from ABC are the Indy Jones movies, The Green Mile, Forrest Gump. Of the HD-one movies, the best 2 titles I've seen so far were "The Odd Couple" and "Witness".

Personally, If I want to watch uncut movies in OAR w/o commercials, I'll watch them on DVD, and at some point in the future, on HD-DVD.


Although there are a few exceptions, Movies(and many TV shows such as "ER") in general are not shot in HD Video, they are shot on Film(usually 35mm) and can be TRANSFERRED to HD. A film which has been transferred to HD is not an upconversion, it's still HD. 35mm film has HIGHER resolution than HD Video, but you don't get film grain in HD Video. The quality of the Transfer of film to HD, as well as the Film stock used/etc, or the creative "contol"(I.e. how the film or specific scene was shot) can all have an effect on the resulting HD PQ, just as everything but the transfer to HD effects the PQ seen in the theatres. The term "upconversion" applies only when source material of lower resolution is upconverted to a higher resolution.

Of course, programming/movies can be upconverted too, I don't know what HDNet movies does, but I do know that I had read "Hogan's Heroes" on HDNet was "supposed to be" HD.(Film transferred to HD).

William can address this better, but in case he is busy : From what I understand, I believe one reason, maybe the main reason that the "simulcast" is necessary is : since KET feeds ALL of their analog+digital transmitters with the necessary programming services via an ATSC stream over their statewide STL network, KET2 has to be there in SD at all times to feed their analog KET2 Transmitter(WKMJ 68 Lousiville). The other 15 Statewide analog transmitters(Including WKPC 15 Lousiville) run KET1. I'm not sure, but I think they have a couple of LP translators(W56AM Falmouth being one of them) that run KET1 as well.

I've thought about it, and I imagine(just assuming here and guessing), the problem with dropping the SD simulcast on KET2 of KET4 HD programming where the KET2 analog transmitter is concerned would be a technical one, as the feed would have to be switched to KET4 at the KET2 analog transmitter during those times, and the programming would have to be downconverted for transmission via WKMJ/KET2 analog transmitter. I assume the same would be true at any cable/dbs head end that uses KET2 digital SD. I know, to us it sounds simple but I'm guessing in practice it wouldn't be as simple, or practical as it might sound.

I've also thought another way to go about it would possibly be to switch ATSC formats on KET2 Instead of doing it on KET4 between HD/Annenburg SD, and just run the HD programming on KET2(while dropping KET4 - CPB/Annenburg), but then HD on KET2 would still need to be "downcoverted" to SD at KET2 before braodcast by WKMJ 68, and downconverted as well by any cableco/DBS headend that is using the "ATSC KET2" feed for "SD output". Again, seems simple enough to us, as even my "consumer grade" DTV receiver/Decoder can be set for 480i SD output, no matter what ATSC format is being received, and in this case, it would all be on KET2, no switching to KET4 necessary. I don't know what the implications would be where juggling the available bandwidth around would be, but as long as they would drop KET4/Annenburg in this case when KET2 Switched to HD, it seems like it could "maybe" work. Of course, also though, if they decided to expand their HD service a bit beyond what is currently simulcast in SD on KET2, they wouldn't be able to do it this way.

Sorry for the triple posts :

FYI, WXIX-DT is back up at 12:35pm.

Speaking of stations going off air, WPTD-DT was down last night starting sometime after 9pm, but they're back up as normal today ...

Noticed that WHIO/DT had the KC vs. Denver game in HD last night, WKRC/DT had Miami vs. New England SD ... Does Cincy cable carry the Dayton Digital stations yet ;-)

Both CBS stations had the CBS HD last night despite the game delays ..