Cincinnati, OH - HDTV - Page 13

Thanks for the reports -- I sent WCET-DT a note as well as link to this page -- Some of my contact info for them might be old though, but I'll post if I hear anything .....

Heard back from WCET-DT already, and they are working on the issue. Follows is reply I received from Jack Dominic at CET:

I will forward to engineering. We have been having problems with PSIP.
For sure that was the cause of the audio abnormalities. We have been
working with Harris to address the PSIP issue and your feedback will help
us. Thanks

jtd

ED Not HD on WLWT-DT OTA at 9~9:10pm --- ED IS HD on WKEF-DT Dayton ....

Also .... WXIX-DT off air Today/Tonight .. The problem is not in your set ...

WCET-DT has HD earlier than normal today(sat afternoon) ... It seems to be unscheduled, so maybe they are doing some "tweaking" or something ....

Not sure when they started the HD, but I just found our guests, instead of channel surfing, sitting, Glued to PBS HD ... I've been busy last couple of hours, but evidently they've been watching quite a while(They were talking about Something on the Colorado River/Grand Canyon(maybe the River of Iron thing) .....

I imagine they are continually working on things to try to make it better, but looks like to me that the compression artifacts seem to be improved a bit from WCET-DT HD presently(and last night, and a couple of other occasions I've seen recently).

However, Not that I'm complaining about it, or that I mind, as for "now" anyway --- I can watch WCET 48 for the analog programming ....
BUT the SD services appear to be VERY low bitrate and quite unwatchable at times, IMO - presently, and last night .... I've noticed this on some other occasions when they are in HD mode the past couple of months especially, as well ..

I do wonder though if TW folks have ever noticed(such as now) low-bitrate SD presently From WCET-DT's SD simulcast of WCET analog, or PBS kids when WCET-DT also has HD available ...

Ken,

Welcome to AVSForum ...

Don't know if you've tried this, you probably have ... I tried searched for SRZ3000's owner's manual at this site(covers sylvania stuff), it wasn't found, but it does provide information on contacting customer support(including a forum which doesn't seem to have a catagory for ATSC receivers for some odd reason) to order hard copies :

http://www.funai-corp.com/support/manuals.asp

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On Webhopper, I'd be interested to know:

#1). how you are handling/allocating bandwidth at WKRC-DT for webhopper .. For instance .. are you using statistical multplexing/oppurtunistic bandwidth/"non-oppurtunistic bandwidth - and how much of it ... As I posted earlier on this thread, a WKRC enginner had told me they are allocating 15mb/s to CBS HD, and WKRC-DT's ancillary services report to FCC indicated (IF I read it right) 4 mb/s is being "used" by webhopper, but it isn't specific concerning so called "opputunistic bandwidth" ... or any other details ...

#2). Was wondering if you are, or are planning on implementing webhopper elsewhere in the area, or if you are planning on using any other means of delivery(or available spectrum) in the future other than via ATSC DTV stations?

Thanks,

--------------------------------------------------

Update: All --

Forgot to mention -- Checked WCET-DT tonight+their SD services when they are in "HD Mode" seemed to look much less bandwidth starved than was the case in the past couple of nights. It appears to me that they might be using statistical Multiplexing, as the SD subs seem to have compression artifact problems(minor when I've looked tonight when compared to last couple of nights anyway) when the HD "needs" more bandwidth, not as a result of any necessarily bandwidth demanding portions of SD programming --- I've actually been noticing this for the past few months now when they are in HD mode, with the PQ on SD services suffering to differing degrees at different times, I'm just assuming because they've been working on optimizing things as much as possible ...

Where did you find the info on DD 5.1? Unless something has changed, NBC has said it will be produced in "Dolby Surround".

Daytona 500 HD info here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=354827

All stations in the area can pass AC-3/DD 2.0 "Pro logic II - Dolby surround". AC-3 audio is part of the ATSC standard. NBC has reported Daytona 500 will be produced in Surround(which is matrixed with DD 2.0), not 5.1 discrete channels as is the case with DD 5.1.

Stations in the area I know of which have DD 5.1 capability currently(of course, the programming involved must be produced with DD 5.1+the station must pass it) are:

Cincinnati area :
WCVN-DT
WCET-DT

Dayton:
WDTN-DT(most, if not all ABC HD programming is aired with DD 5.1)
WPTD-DT
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe NBC has offered any programming in DD 5.1 to date ...

Very true. I might be remembering it wrong, but I believe WCPO-DT(ABC) may be planning on doing DD 5.1 when they move into their new facilites ...


For the most part, if you can get good analog reception(not much snow or ghosting), you should be able to get good DTV reception in our area as well -- So, if you can "optimize" your analog reception(on UHF+VHF) before you get the receiver, you should be pretty much good to go. I'm sure you already know this given your work for webhopper, but A directional, outdoor antenna aimed at the towers is a great idea(not that it's necessary in most circumstances) --- WCPO-DT is on VHF, rest on UHF ... Unless you have terrain issues at your location, you should have a shot at the Dayton stations from Milford as well ... WSTR-DT/WB Cincinnati is using a directional transmitting pattern, which doesn't send much RF energy in your direction, so that one might be hard to pull in. They don't have WB HD yet, however.

If you have any problems once you get your receiver, feel free to ask -- Also, I'm sure somewhere here(or elsewhere on AVS) will have model-specific info ..


Thanks for the interesting info. As I posted earlier in this thread, I noticed an improvement in the signal quality readings on my receiver around that time from WKRC-DT. WKRC-DT allways puts an excellent signal into here(32 Miles - I'm between Middletown+Germantown). I can receive it easily indoors with a $2 folded dipole(wire in shape of a bowtie)+with my tower mounted, directional antenna(w/rotor) outdoors, I can pick up WKRC-DT pretty much no matter which direction I aim the antenna .....

This Month's HD-one movie, "Beverly Hills Cop" is scheduled for a SD showing on WKRC-DT at 2:05am late night Saturday ....

Will we see a HD airing on WKRC-DT this weekend also ? We'll see ....

I agree Doc. It is a good thing. I've seen them miss the switch back to HD a couple of times, but mostly just the first couple of days after they started doing it.

Could be ... Usually they do have stuff on Fri night Fox WS too, at least Boston Public is WS on Fri nights, although it hasn't been scheduled the past couple of weeks ... Of course, They haven't had WS on Wed nights either because of U.C. games, even though Fox sends "O.C." in Widescreen .... + xix airs in in a different time slot ...

Of course, with WPTO-DT going on WXIX tower, I suppose that could potentially mean some down time for work on the Transmitter/shacks/etc, or LP operation for WXIX/WXIX-DT due to RF exposure regs for the tower workers ...

Luckily, looks like soon I won't even have to mess with xix' anymore(at least I hope), since WRGT-DT 30 Dayton should soon have Fox Widescreen .... they(and all the rest of the Dayton stations) don't seem to have any problems with 24/7+354 operation. Unfortuently though, Per FCC site, WRGT-DT's antenna pattern probably ain't so great towards Cincy, and having WXIX-DT+WKRC-DT right next door to them probably doesn't help much either ...

Oops! I thought I typed 365 days for a year .... Trying to do too much multitasking I suppose ...


I'm really not sure. Their CP is for 425KW ERP, but a STA granted on 10/03 is for 15.3KW ERP that shows up on FCC site. Their CE told me back in fall 02 they were at "full power" at that time ...

The antenna pattern shown on FCC site for both the Full power STA+CP is the same --- Optimized to the East+NE towards Springfield. Viewers in Columbus report getting it, with the best signal of all the Dayton DT's ....

It's a .263 relative field value shown in my direction, which would be 1058 WATTS ERP given the 15.3 KW ERP STA (relative field value SQUARED x 15,300 watts) is how you figure that ...

If they're running 425KW ERP, it would be 29.3KW sent towards me ...

If it's the STA, then that 1KW sure is doing one hell of a job, as I can pretty much get the thing no matter what I do+the best of the Dayton DT's, even with just a wire sticking out of back of TV ... That's from 13 miles with terrain issues+lots and lots of trees .... When WKRC-DT went down for a time a couple weeks back, I was able to get them WRGT-DT 30 solidly with antenna aimed towards Cincy. The meter goes bouncy bouncy and I get it about 1/2 of the time w/o dropouts even with WKRC-DT up with antenna aimed towards Cincy(155 degrees off target from dayton) a lot of the time too. Of course, it isn't multipath that is making the meter go "bouncy bouncy" in this case .... Perfect reception of course of WRGT-DT If antenna is aimed anywhere near Dayton ...,

Anyhow, I've never noticed any change from them since they came up on 5/1/02.

Towards Cincy, For WRGT-DT depending upon receiving location it would be something like a ~.317~.379 relative field value, about 1.5~2.2 KW ERP w/15.3 KW STA, or about 43~61 KW ERP given 425KW ERP ..

WRGT/DT info from FCC site here(the Relative field polar plot gives you a good idea of the pattern w/o looking at the numbers :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&mlon2=&slon2=

Of course, that's all just assuming the pattern is as shown on FCC site, it probably is, or is pretty close unless some Ice storm or something messed something up ...

WHIO-DT is running a 275KW ERP STA(Full power CP is 1000KW ERP), with the same antenna pattern as WCET-DT (Sort of like a spade "scrunched down" on top)... Except the Null is RIGHT towards me+WDRB 41 Louisville's tower, instead of to the South like WCET-DT ... I get a .19 relative field value from them, and about 9KW ERP which is way more than enough. I get'em with antenna aimed towards Cincinnati.

depending upon where in Cincy area, Cincy should get anything from .837(193KW ERP(((say over near amelia) to .331(30 KW ERP - say over near Greendale, IN) from WHIO-DT ... Right towards Downtown Cincy+Florence pretty much should be about .551 relative field value, or about 84KW ERP.

WHIO/DT info from FCC site here:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state...&mlon2=&slon2=

All the other Dayton DT's are non-directional. WBDT-DT 18's Full power CP is 35KW ERP(They've filed for a license to cover for that), being right next to WXIX 19 probably doesn't help for Cincy viewers ....Being on a "Low-UHF" channel should help though a little "noise" off the backside from WLEX 18 lexington might not help either, although I've on occasion(tropo scatter from WLEX) seen BOTH stations perfectly(given proper antenna aiming) with neither station hurting the other too much ...

Anyhow, WDTN-DT is at at 125KW ERP STA(they've asked FCC for 1000KW ERP), WKEF-DT at 95KW ERP(their full power CP isn't for much more than that), WPTD-DT is at full power, 250KW ERP ...

ALL of them are way up there on the towers, WDTN-DT is even above the Channel 2 antenna. I believe WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT/WBDT-DT I believe are on top, or very close to top of a single tower with crossmember on top+multiple masts ... WRGT/WBDT share that tower too according to fcc site ... WHIO/DT tower is the farthest North, about a mile North of the others ... Its also the only tower that dates from the 50's, the others went up since 77 ....

WBDT-DT's (WB Dayton) License to Cover app has been sitting on FCC site for a long time(since 3/03, a few weeks after they came on air), and the info indicates it hasn't been granted yet, which is a bit odd. FCC issued them a 35KW ERP "full power" CP, don't know what the delay is, but I had heard something somewhere about 50KW being the "minimum" for full power CP --- Which seems odd, since FCC granted the 35KW ERP CP in the first place ... ... WBDT have said some time back they will do WB HD+were working on selecting equipment+the time line involved, hopefully it will be sooner rather than later ....

Probably more than you wanted to know ...

That's all you can do with ATSC 8VSB in a 6MHZ RF channel. I'm happy with it if we get THAT for 1080i. Stations need mulitple encoders(expensive)/etc. to send seperate feeds to cableco's, whom I wouldn't think are likely to want anything more that what the station would send OTA anyway, becuase of bandwidth conservation concerns. ATSC 16VSB via cable does support 38mb/s datarate in 6MHZ, for instance.

Moving to say, MPEG4 or something else that might be better wouldn't work with any of the current, or in the forseeable future receivers out there. You can't have another DTV transistion in the middle of a DTV transistion. Maybe if you start putting the necessary chips in the decoders NOW for whatever works better, then in 15 years or so the transmission side can change to the "better" compression scheme. Of course, by that time, there will be even something better, so where do you stop and say "this is what we are using", and this is what we are going to stick with ... might have been different if receivers/decoders had been made to be easily user upgradable for any future improvement(not just compression either), but they weren't/aren't..

I don't know how much bandwidth you'd need to take care of the strobe issue, with mpeg2 anyway, it might take a LOT more than would be practical in any situation ....

NTSC has it's "minuses" too, which are usually taken into account during production .... Maybe something can be done about the strobe issue on the production or improvement in encoder side of things ...

As for the strobes, I've also seen a similar effect on WCPO-DT during a scene with a lot of lightning during HD broadcast of 'The Green mile" ... It really wasn't all that horrible, and WCPO-DT was upconverting to 1080i at the time though, so, with the SD weather channel next door, it probably would have looked better if they were at 720p.

At least we could have more birthday bashes ;-)

Not just broadcast HD ... I'd guess the "HdNets"/etc too are probably going to be using MPEG2 at 19.3mb/s for a long time too ...Or at least, that's how it'll probably get to the consumer for a long time to come ... Would still be a quite difficult procedure which would take a long time I'd think, but it probably would be a little bit easier to "upgrade" the cable nets to a different codec than would be the case with broadcasters ... I don't expect anything like that to happen, for broadcasters or HD cable nets for a long, long time, but then again, who knows.

Having just 1's and 0's to work with can be a real PITA sometimes ....

As for HD-DVD, I can't wait. I haven't read up on it much, but I would imagine as with DVD, bitrate might be constrained somewhat by the data capacity of the media/program length/etc. I don't know about other codecs, but with MPEG2, since the encoder doesn't have to do the job in "real time", things can be much better ... Still don't know if it would solve the MPEG2 "strobe thing" though ...