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Cincinnati, OH - HDTV - Page 14

post #391 of 14333
Thread Starter 
HD-one movie "Beverly Hills Cop" in HD on WKRC-DT presently (8-10pm sat) ... Guess(just guessing) they're sticking with the Sat. night once a month schedule now, which Doc mentioned a couple of months back ...

According to the AVS programming sypnosis, we get the first 6 Trek movies, the Godfather movies+raiders of lost ark from HD-one between April+December! Up until now, "the Odd Couple+Witness" have been, IMO the best 2 titles they've aired in HD ....

I caught Raiders in HD when it aired on ABC a couple years ago, it was excellent PQ+OAR .. will be interesting to see if it looks like a different transfer for the July HD-one airing ... ALL of the HD-one movies have aired in OAR BTW ...

Oh, also noticed WXIX-DT up this afternoon/tonight ..
post #392 of 14333
I've been really "bugged" by WKRC's new "Local 12" bug. I know this isn't strictly a HD issue, although it will be when the start applying to their DT channel. I emailed them with my complaint and here is their reply:

Mr. Keane,

Yesterday we made the bug smaller and further to the left. We continue to work on its transparency. This is a constant subject of discussion here at the station and I am aware that you are not alone in your opinion. I do appreciate any input you have, and I promise you, we'll keep working on it.

Jennifer Bucheit
Director of Creative Services
LOCAL 12
Twelve Creative Productions
1906 Highland Avenue
Cincinnati, OH 45219
513.763.5416
www.wkrc.com
www.twelvecreative.com
post #393 of 14333
Jack..
Thanks for sharing the information. Maybe with the chunk of change they dumped on their new (SD) control room (which is VERY slick), it'll be awhile before they have enough to spend on a bug generator for the HD. They need an integrated master control switcher, first. And I imagine that, too, is way down the list of capital expenditures .

Doc
post #394 of 14333
The larger/more bugs, the less I watch local television.
post #395 of 14333
Quote:


Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
The larger/more bugs, the less I watch local television.

Yep. me too but I'd say all TV as these bugs are becoming pervasive on broadcast and cable.

To me it's just a constant broadcast of visual noise. At the risk of giving somebody at Clear Channel an idea... can you imagine a radio broadcast where the call letters were constantly recited at a slightly lower level than the program ? TV channel bugs are the visual equivalent IMO.

I watch very little local TV as it is but do try and watch PBS HD. CET's god awful channel bug has me watching less and less.
post #396 of 14333
Thread Starter 
I certianly appreciate the fine job our local stations do in providing local+national programming, news and entertainment.

It is also no surprise to me that personel from the local stations don't participate more on our local threads. Here is a link to a local thread in the info and reception area of AVSforum where the situation is better:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...light=Virginia

This thread, and this area of AVSforum is for "Local HDTV Info and reception". If you want to tell someone that you won't watch "such and such" station because of their bug, contact the station and tell them. Don't count on logos+other inserted graphics disappearing from Local or national program services however ....
post #397 of 14333
When you consider that we live in one of the few cities where ALL of the network affiliates pass HDTV with decent power and antenna height, living with a transparent channel bug suddenly becomes a small price to pay. Plus, when it's ALL 16:9, those bugs will take up a lot less real estate, percentagewise. ;-)

Doc
post #398 of 14333
I agree for the most part, with one exception being UPN which is not HD in Cincinnati or on a full powered signal either. Hopefully the move to ch 38 is still going to happen this spring.
post #399 of 14333
They'll still be analog, though, won't they? Neither station has a digital assignment nor appears to be working to get one. Yet.
post #400 of 14333
Thread Starter 
I don't know what they are going to do ...I assume they're going to build 38 analog, but who knows. With the Tuner mandate and all, on the one hand, it doesn't seem to make too much sense to build a new analog plant now -- The only reasons to build analog, it seems to me, is to keep serving those analog OTA viewers which haven't switched to digital yet and perhaps, another important consideration in this case ... Cost ... On the other hand, I could be wrong, but its probably going to be ~10 years or so before analog shut off time ...

If it were a "perfect world", they'd build digital on 38, UPN/WBQC-CA on one subchannel(HD would be nice too), and run WOTH-LP programming on a fairly low-bitrate SD subchannel on the digital on 38+Run UPN/WBQC-CA programming in analog on what will be WOTH-LP 25 .... I'm not counting on a perfect world though!

Either WOTH-LP/WBQC-CA could switch to digital, but they'd have to do it on their analog assignment, meaning the analog would have to go dark. Their owner had told me a couple years back that they "will go digital when there were enough viewers who could see it" ... I do think it's great they seem to be concerned with their analog OTA viewers ...

..... There are some stations across U.S. without a DTV channel assignment which has already turned the analog off+switched the digital on ... even "cable must carry" for digital apply in those circumstances ...

I think some Class A stations did get a digital channel assignment, but the DTV "table of allocations" was handed out by FCC around the time WBQC went from LP to Class A, which may be one reason why they didn't get one .... I don't know, but I doubt they could get a seperate DTV channel assignment now(or anytime before analog shut off time), and I don't think LP's can get one at all at this time... After all things are really crowded as is .... Heck, there really aren't any "really clean channels" available around here anyway, especially not on 2-51 ...

Quote:


Originally posted by microbob
with one exception being UPN which is not HD in Cincinnati

The other exception of course being No WB HD in Cincy from WSTR-DT ...

I assume since 'Xix is doing Fox Widescreen now, they'll have Fox HD this fall too ... can't imagine why not ...

A viacom owned station just South of Columbus is BOTH a UPN AND WB affiliate, they run HD from both UPN+WB as well as the HD-one Movie package ... We'd be set(OTA people anyway) if they would have built the tower just a little closer to Dayton+Cincinnati ...
post #401 of 14333
FWIW: Insight cable now offers an HD DVR. One of our sister station's guys says it's to die for. 40 hours SD, 8 hours HD. According to him, you can't tell it's recorded.

This from the cable company that, a year ago, had "absolutely no plans" to offer HD. Sounds like someone found a gold mine.

Doc
post #402 of 14333
Quote:


This thread, and this area of AVSforum is for "Local HDTV Info and reception". If you want to tell someone that you won't watch "such and such" station because of their bug, contact the station and tell them. Don't count on logos+other inserted graphics disappearing from Local or national program services however ....

If saying that larger, additional bugs cause me to watch less network television (I've never said I boycott local channels) drives away local personnel, then they are too thin-skinned to participate in a public forum.

I've been very tolerant of a single 'bug' for 'free' television, but when I start getting multiple instances of them on my screen, and they start getting larger or more opaque, I will say something about it. More people should.

And I won't be nasty about it, but I'll speak the truth. This is on-topic.

And if they won't listen, I won't whine or pout. I'll watch more HD-HBO, HD-Showtime, and more DVDs.
post #403 of 14333
Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
This thread, and this area of AVSforum is for "Local HDTV Info and reception".

Hmmm. Well, my comment concerning the CET bug on their PBS-HD programming WAS pertinent to "Local HDTV Info". However, it seems to me that the tremendous number of posts in these threads about the broadcast status of WXIX-DT & their wierdscreen problems have absolutely nothing to do with local HDTV because 480p upconverted is NOT high def.


Quote:


I certainly appreciate the fine job our local stations do in providing local+national programming, news and entertainment.

I'll reserve comment on this controversial statement because it really is off topic.


Quote:


It is also no surprise to me that personnel from the local stations don't participate more on our local threads.

So this forum should be a local affiliate love fest per the previously quoted remark I agree with Michael's assessment. But I really don't see very much criticism in these threads anyway. If they know about us at all I don't think local station personnel either have the time or care enough about our feedback to participate here.


Quote:


Don't count on logos+other inserted graphics disappearing from Local or national program services however ....

Which means the issue should not be discussed here ? I would say the same about multicasting & bandwidth sharing services as well. Don't expect them to disappear anytime soon either. So that makes them verbotten topics as well Mr. Self Anointed Moderator ?


OK, I'm done. Flame back at will if it makes you feel better but be assured I won't be lurking around to read it. I'll leave you OTA geeks to have the private "tropo-skip gee-wiz I picked up Pittsburg last night" O-jerk that you obviously want this thread to be.
post #404 of 14333
When I first posted about the Local 12 bug, I did not intend to set off a war between guys who should be allies.

The bug talk may not be strictly HDTV fare, but where else would you go with this topic and who else would care?
post #405 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Geez o' pete. I'm just stating my opinion. I'm not trying to tell anyone what to discuss, nor am I trying to moderate. I think this thread should be open to any discussion which relates to info/or related topics concerning our local stations(not necessarily HD either) as well as info/etc on reception.

I referrenced another thread so those here could see how it works in another area where more personel from the stations do participate ... check it out, you might find it beneficial ......

I don't have any problem with discussion of bugs here either, when appropriate. I'm sure I've even mentioned a bug a time or two. What I was specifically addressing was, if you don't like the bugs+ aren't going to watch the station because of it/etc and are going to watch something else instead, contact the station+tell them. I think That's the place to address that particular issue, not here, but again, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong, but I doubt if anyone here cares if such and such is going to watch HBO instead of WKRC-DT ... If there is some tropo or e-skip going on, or TW has a new STB/etc, someone here MIGHT be interested in checking it out ...

As for the bugs, if you really want to know, I'd rather not have them either(at least not all the time), but they are going to be there. I'm not going to not watch programming I enjoy because of it. That's silly.

And actually, believe it or not, we do have personel from local stations which particpate on Cincinnati thread, I also know for a fact that personel from some other local stations monitor this thread .....

Carry on ...
post #406 of 14333
While we're on the topic of local stations monitoring the thread, I had the opportunity to show our little gathering place to some people from WLWT, this morning. Blew them away. They had no idea ANYbody was watching 35. Just like WSTR, they were amazed to learn nearly everyone in our building has a set. They estimated "less than .1% of the viewing audience has HD." Whether or not that filters up the food chain or not, I dunno. Have to wait and see.

But it might be a good opportunity to throw a paper letter to them stating your satisfaction with their HDTV effort. While e-mails come and e-mails go, paper corrrespondence ends up in the public file.

Just a suggestion

Doc
post #407 of 14333
Quote:


I could be wrong, but I doubt if anyone here cares if such and such is going to watch HBO instead of WKRC-DT

I think some of us may like to know if others share our opinion (and it is obvious that many do). Discussing how we feel about something is not a substitute for calling/mailing/emailing the station to voice our concerns, but that doesn't mean there isn't a place for it, especially if it is done with cool heads and manners.

There is tons of stuff that gets discussed in here that I personally could care less about, but I don't complain about it.

Local bugs are a local issue. So are local subchannels, local webcasting, local format conversion, and anything else done that affects what we see on our screens locally. Bugs are fair game just as any of the other topics have been.
post #408 of 14333
Quote:


They had no idea ANYbody was watching 35.

As a starting point, they might want to ask Warner how many HD boxes have been deployed. I have two close personal friends who watch all the HD locals in real HD via TWC, and you'll never see either of them in AVS or discussion groups online; they have no interest.
post #409 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by DrDon
While we're on the topic of local stations monitoring the thread, I had the opportunity to show our little gathering place to some people from WLWT, this morning. Blew them away. They had no idea ANYbody was watching 35. Just like WSTR, they were amazed to learn nearly everyone in our building has a set. They estimated "less than .1% of the viewing audience has HD." Whether or not that filters up the food chain or not, I dunno. Have to wait and see.

But it might be a good opportunity to throw a paper letter to them stating your satisfaction with their HDTV effort. While e-mails come and e-mails go, paper corrrespondence ends up in the public file.

Just a suggestion

Doc

Good idea Doc, I'll have to do more letter writing. Usually I've been focused on correspondance with the CE's/etc. concerning "operational issues" (and to thank them for doing a fine job occasionally), but it wouldn't take a lot of time to write a short letter to each station about their HD, or lack of it in the case of WSTR-DT.

I'm a bit puzzled by the seemingly low(to me anyway) HD penetration estimations by these stations, however. I'm not sure how many households are in this DMA, but I do recall that in Dec. 2002, TW Cincy reported having either 6,000 or 8,000 subscribers to their HD service, and I would imagine that number has significantly went up since then. OTA wise, it's hard to make an estimation, but I've seen several hundred folks with OTA HD in the area post on various forums(not just AVS), and I would imagine the number is significantly more than that, depending upon how many folks who have OTA HD actually post on a internet HD related forum. You couldn't just go by sales of receivers locally, for example since many folks purchase their stuff off the net ...

Also, my understanding is that nationally, last I heard HD penetration is something like 3-5 million households or so. Who knows, but I wouldn't think percentage wise, the number would be much different in Cincinnati area, so one would THINK that we should be at somewhere in the 2-5% range by now .... I think .5% or so would have been an accurate figure 2 years ago or so ...

Sure, it's still a drop in the bucket, but the way it looks to me, the HD thing is starting to take off now ...
post #410 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
I think some of us may like to know if others share our opinion

And now you know my opinion, I stand by my previous comments, which as I said, are my opinion on the matter. I can't speak for anyone else.
post #411 of 14333
Quote:


Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
As a starting point, they might want to ask Warner how many HD boxes have been deployed.

They knew TW carried 35 and they knew Insight did. But they didn't know anybody actually was watching. BUT.. someone at the station has ordered 7 new plasma screens. Now, that's more than you'd need on any news set. One of the guys seemed to think they might be setting up a couple to use to monitor 35.

You have to see this from their perspective. They're cranking out television like they always have. The DT sits unobtrusively in a rack in master control. Because of the delay, they don't put one in the production rooms or in the studios because it's confusing. In the course of a workday, most of the employees never come across anything that has anything to do with HDTV. They don't encounter anyone who has one, sales doens't sell it and clients either don't own one or don't watch. Once a monitor or two turns up, they'll see it more often and it might start to matter.

The real impact comes from viewer contact. I'm often the only one who calls when a switch is missed. And that might be half an hour into a program. If the main channel went off, the switchboard would light up like a Christmas tree.

I remember when BOB and BOB2 were in our building. BOB2 was automated. The "off-the-air" bulb went out, so I never knew the thing was off the air. It sat off from 5AM until 10:45, when ONE GUY finally called the front desk. From that reaction, we all drew the conclusion that nobody was listening to BOB2. I'm sure the same thing happens with DTV. Ya gotta let 'em know you're out there.

Doc
post #412 of 14333
Right now we don't have an easy way to automate "bug control" as they are inserted in the encoder. It is however an easy way for us to detect a problem as the spare encoder doesn't have a bug in it. Hence, no bug on air means somethings afoot..

I have gotten questioned as to why I have participated here more than once by TPTB. ( and afterward changed my sig line to eliminate any station reference)
post #413 of 14333
[quote]Originally posted by Nitewatchman
[b]I certianly appreciate the fine job our local stations do in providing local+national programming, news and entertainment.

It is also no surprise to me that personel from the local stations don't participate more on our local threads. Here is a link to a local thread in the info and reception area of AVSforum where the situation is better:

Trust me.... People are getting the word and are becoming aware of this thread in the Cincinnati area.
post #414 of 14333
I am curious to know if anyone can tell me how many people subscribe or particpate in this thread.
post #415 of 14333
Hey Hopper,

I live in Mt. Carmel and work in Milford. Nice to see you.

I still won't forgive you for stealing WKRC bandwith, though.
post #416 of 14333
Quote:


Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
I am curious to know if anyone can tell me how many people subscribe or particpate in this thread.

Subscribe? No, but a look at the number of views minus the number of people posting might give you an idea of the number of lurkers, although MILES from accurate. For posters, you'd just have to go through and count us. And, don't forget, there are a bunch of threads in the archive area.

Doc
post #417 of 14333
Thread Starter 
[quote]Originally posted by WebHopperWeasel
[b]
Quote:


Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Trust me.... People are getting the word and are becoming aware of this thread in the Cincinnati area.

That's good news.

In addition to Cincinnati thread(s), there is also the Dayton thread which is here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...00#post3409500 ). Some of those folks post here as well, but there are a number of folks watching the Cincinnati DTV/HD stations from Dayton who post on the Dayton thread, but don't post here. We sometimes end up discussing Cincinnati issues on the Dayton thread as well, mostly because of convienance. Also, as doc mentioned, there are a lot of folks who posted for a short time asking for help/advice, and they are probably spending their time enjoying watching HD instead of posting on AVS and contacting the stations/etc.

There are of course, likely many DTV/HD viewers(OTA and Cable) who have never even seen AVSforum, as well as other viewers of Cincinnati stations in more "fringe area" locations than Dayton. For instance, I know of a few folks on a regional DTV DX mailing list I partipate on whom got lucky with "tropo", and enjoyed the 2002 HD WEBN Fireworks on WKRC-DT.

Not necessarily relating to Cincinnati, but also, the folks in Columbus have an excellent HD/DTV forum set up which may be of interest to anyone at the stations whom are interested in the "state of HD/DTV" in this area. Personel(mainly CE's) from just about all the Columbus station particpate. Each columbus area station has its own forum area :

http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/default.asp
post #418 of 14333
Thread Starter 
Quote:


Originally posted by Michael St. Clair
I still won't forgive you for stealing WKRC bandwith, though.

One of the reasons why I posted a link to local thread in Virginia in an earlier post was, If you read some of the posts from the Engineers and the input form viewers on that thread, you'll see that some stations are doing things such as turning off SD subchannels and allocating more bandwidth for HD events such as superbowl, and the PBS affiliate is experimenting with things such as using 720p, or 1440x1080/1280x1080i instead of 1920x1080i, even though 1080i is what PBS sends them for PBS HD channel. As you may know, one of our local PBS stations, KET/WCVN-DT does this, and sends PBS HD at 720p instead of 1080i .....

There are several references to this on the thread, as well as reports from viewers on the test, generally in posts made since End of January. Here's one relevant post from yesterday :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...67#post3411067

I'm just speculating based on viewer reports, but I also noticed today that it seems the Lexington, KY CBS station may be experimenting with 720p presently :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...14#post3414114

I believe we've discussed this sort of thing before, and FWIW, thought you, and others might like to see some interesting info concerning implementation/experimentation with different ATSC formats+ possible HD resolutions ...
post #419 of 14333
Jeff,

Thanks for the info. I will read those threads.

I was advocating switching to 720p several months ago, particularly if broadcasting at 75% of bandwith becomes the norm. I'm sure I'm not the only one or the first. I don't think 1080i at MPEG-2 15Mbps is ever going to cut it.
post #420 of 14333
Michael..
Hope like heck that the FCC doesn't extend must-carry to subchannels. Without guaranteed cable carriage, it won't be worth it for commercial stations to use subs for anything other than low-bandwidth services, such as WCPO-DT's Weather Channel. Plus, once ATSC set penetration approaches saturation, quality will become more of an issue. Even now, stations spend boatloads of money on boxes to make the analog picture just a teeny bit better than the competition. It'll take time, but this same thinking will eventually apply to DTV, too. All it takes is for one station to proclaim, "Nobody gives you better HDTV than we do." Then, it'll be ON.

Doc
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