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Silver Fabrics - Page 17  

post #481 of 502
Thread Starter 
Glad to still see people using the material I discovered. :) It is really amazing, especially for the price. It's by far the best screen that I have seen (except when it comes to viewing angle) so far.

I used it for awhile with my CRT before switching to the white side (which I now regret BTW). Unfortunately, I cannot go back to the silver, because I took my frosted layer down and now it has bad wrinkles. That thing was a pain to get up the first time too. :)

The silver completely got rid of the CRT halos too, which was great.

It's an amazing screen. Great ambient light performance compared to a white screen. Great colors. It really gives a nice percieved contrast enhancement. I think this screen can hold its own easily against any screen, except when it comes to viewing angle.
post #482 of 502
Im glad I stumbled onto this thread, when I first tested the sm pvc (taped to the wall with a black felt boarder taped around it) I was amazed with the color and brightness. I think a slight curve in the right direction will fix any viewing angle trouble and make this a near perfect screen. : )


I suggest any one with a need for deep rich/vibrant colors try this method out.
post #483 of 502
MTyson, do you see any reason the silver PVC wouldn't work in a torus? I'm going to build either a torus (with $200 of Pearlbrite) or a cylindrical screen (curved painted hardboard), I'm just trying to decide which. The torus would be best but the $$ of Pearlbrite makes it painful. If the MSPVC would work well, for a lot less, that sounds like a good answer. The torus would solve all the viewing angle / hotspotting issues you saw, and hopefully it would also make the frosted vinyl unnecessary. (Why don't you build yourself a torus so you can use the silver side again??)

Rich vibrant colors, high gain, cheap -- sounds like a deal. Wish it was whiter but you guys are saying the colors are great, even on CRTs that don't need/want gray screens.

MTYson, if I remember right you strongly recommended to have MJTrends ship it rolled, which costs something like $25 extra, right? Geeze, for that much, I ought to order 2 screens worth... Would be nice if you could get this at Joann or Hancock Fabrics!
post #484 of 502
since you guys are going through all of these extra steps... silver cloths, curved screens, pearlbrite paint, etc... (not to mention new spray paint guns...)

why don't you just give benven's silver screen mix a try. yes it's oil based but after curing... it has a tremendous amount of gain, deep rich colors and whites that aren't muted, and no hotspots to deal with...

just a thought...
post #485 of 502
Thread Starter 
Honestly, I'm not sure how well for what you're trying to do.

Whites are blindlingly white on this screen compared to matte white though. Take a look at my old Family Guy screenshot: http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...g/ppuser/42581 (screenshot is with a camcorder and prior to adding a frosted layer)
It has whiter and brighter whites than matte white. Whites have not been a problem with this screen. It may look grayish in color, but it displays whites like a bright white screen.

The screen w/a frosted clear layer was great with my CRT (aside from not having a wide viewing angle). It may be too reflective without the layer (could cause color shifting among other potential problems.), but with the setup you're going for I don't know if it'll be needed or not.

Halos were gone with my CRT when I used the SPVC with a frosted layer, which was great. ANSI contrast was improved.

I don't believe mine came rolled, but that's probably the best way to get this fabric, because I recall having to stretch the material to get rid of any wrinkles or creases. This material is very stretchy.
post #486 of 502
pb_maxxx, I'm planning to use benven's paint mix IF I go with a curved (1-axis, cylindrical) rigid screen. But I don't want to try to paint a torus.

If benven's mix has high gain, it MUST have hotspotting. By definition I don't think you can have one without the other. If it doesn't hotspot, it must not have very high gain.

MTyson, I'm actually surprised it's not a bigger difference than that. If you look at benven's pictures, especially with his straight aluminum screen, the matte-white screens look *black*. Yours just looks a bit darker.

But if that pic is without vinyl, then I'm guessing it will work well for a torus.
post #487 of 502
this is exactly why BENVIN's silver screen oil based mix (minus the black) would be perfect for your application.

and just like you said, sure the screen will have aluminum/greyish appearance but the whites are brighter than matte white and the colors are not muted at all. best of all it's a great mix for ambient light as well.

but what's special about this mix is the lack of hotspotting. this is because of the satin finish polyurethane in the mix which when cured, gives the screen a very FLAT finish. in other words, it accomplishes what the $200 pearl brite does for a mere $10 a quart.

now all you need is a rigid pvc screen like durotherm to put it on.
post #488 of 502
Quote:
If benven's mix has high gain, it MUST have hotspotting. By definition I don't think you can have one without the other. If it doesn't hotspot, it must not have very high gain.
not true at all. (at least not true anymore). one of the things benven and i have discussed at length is how surprised we are that a high gain screen paint has so little or no hotspotting. i can show u pics where i've taken a pic from 3 feet away and even the camera can not pic up any hotspotting. we both believe this is due to the satin finish polyurethane in the mix. that ingredient is a must.
post #489 of 502
"High gain" means it returns more light to your eye than a matte-white finish. The only way to do that (for a flat surface anyway) is to reflect more of the light directly to your eye, rather than dispersing it in all directions like a matte-white screen does. The more light that reflects to your eye, the more the light source becomes apparent in the image (hotspot) -- with a perfect mirror being the extreme case.

If there is no hotspot, then there must be a relatively low amount of light reflecting directly to your eye. Unless I really misunderstand the optics involved, you can't get high gain without hotspot.

You would sure THINK that a mix that's 75% aluminum would be mighty bright and reflective, and thus high gain. But who knows, the white may be coating the metal particles, or the clear may be causing dispersion within the screen surface, or...

Do you have a light meter of some kind? It would be very interesting to see how many ftL come off benven's screen vs. a BO or other 1.0-gain screen. It may be significantly brighter than BO but still not real high gain -- and if it's not high enough gain, it's no good for a curved surface.
post #490 of 502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz
MTyson, I'm actually surprised it's not a bigger difference than that. If you look at benven's pictures, especially with his straight aluminum screen, the matte-white screens look *black*. Yours just looks a bit darker.
.
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying his matte white screen looks black when white is projected onto it in comparison to white projected onto his aluminum screen?

Please provide a link to these pics if you can, so I'll know what you mean, specifically. Perhaps I'll be able to give you a better reply.

Thanks
post #491 of 502
garyfritz,

Quote:
"High gain" means it returns more light to your eye than a matte-white finish. The only way to do that (for a flat surface anyway) is to reflect more of the light directly to your eye, rather than dispersing it in all directions like a matte-white screen does. The more light that reflects to your eye, the more the light source becomes apparent in the image (hotspot) -- with a perfect mirror being the extreme case.
you are correct.

however, one of the things that standard TV's do so well is to "collect" or harshness that gain on to a flat or slightly curved surface.

with MM/LF it's gloss base and the plexiglass with a 1/8" gap making use of light fusion that gives you the gain... but the MM topcoat that harnesses that gain into something visually useful. with Jimbra it's some sort of film that does the magic trick. with MAX-DG and Benvin's mixes it’s the urethane mixed along with the high gain materials. effectively, what the urethane does is to collect the gain from the metallics and reflective material and remove the hotspot in such a superthin surface coating that the finished product appears to have a "flat" look and feel.

in the past, DIY’s have tried to use urethane on top of a topcoat in hopes of getting increased gain. we now know this was the wrong approach. because if you were to attempt to spray or paint the thinnest layer of urethane on top... it would immediately hotspot.

Quote:
You would sure THINK that a mix that's 75% aluminum would be mighty bright and reflective, and thus high gain. But who knows, the white may be coating the metal particles, or the clear may be causing dispersion within the screen surface
i think you answered your own question here. the 75% aluminum is quite bright and reflective and thus high gain is achieved. yes, the white is slightly coating some of the metallic particles however the urethane negates some of that due to it's semi-transparent nature. and yes, the clear is causing dispersion within the screen surface and therefore helps in "canceling" out the hotspots.

one of the things you'll also notice with MAX-DG and Benvin's mix is the increased viewing cone due to that dispersion.

Quote:
Do you have a light meter of some kind?
i'm not sure that you could correctly measure the gain of MM's LF, or Jimbra's soon to be release DIY screen, or even Benvin’s and my own paint mixes... because the true gain would have to be collected before it reaches the surface that harnesses that gain. any measurement after the collective surface would be light that wasn't blocked.
post #492 of 502
Guys, take a look at this picture. I know, I am horrible with a camera :( . In the middle is pb_maxx's mix and another light gray mix. I would say there is not hotspotting, but a warm spot. It does not beam at you, it is very well dispersed. The outsides of the screen are a little darker, but very viewable. I'm having a great time watching it. Now if I could just figure out a way to reduce the nap lines.

[IMG]http://show.imagehosting.us/show/669...972_669094.JPG[/IMG]

Also, I suggest if want to discuss these mixes and not jack MTyson's thread (great work BTW on this material), let's bring the comments back to either my thread or pb_maxx's.

By the way, I ordered 4 yards of the silver PVC material this morning. I just want to see how it stands up to my screen. :)
post #493 of 502
pb_maxxx,
What are you talking about? A low gloss coating may reduce some of the perceived hotspoting, but that doesn't mean it is somehow going to give you perfect uniformity with gain. Our eyes adjust to the differences in light intesity across the screen, so it is hard to ascertain. That doesn't mean it is not there, if you can't see it. Of course, it can be measured.

This brings me to your statement on light meters. If Jimbra's theoretical screen can't be measured, then how did DNP measure their Supernova screen? With a light meter, you would have to measure the light output first. You would then measure the light output of your screen to establish the screen gain. Also, you would measure different points on the screen to establish how much light is being reflected across the screen.

Eric
post #494 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTyson
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying his matte white screen looks black when white is projected onto it in comparison to white projected onto his aluminum screen?
Yes. See e.g. the bottom picture in this post. The bottom square is straight aluminum, the top rectangles are white paper and BO. OK, maybe the BO isn't black, but it's dark gray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx
the 75% aluminum is quite bright and reflective and thus high gain is achieved. yes, the white is slightly coating some of the metallic particles however the urethane negates some of that due to it's semi-transparent nature. and yes, the clear is causing dispersion within the screen surface and therefore helps in "canceling" out the hotspots.
Well, it's hard to tell from benven's screenies in the thread I referenced above, but it sure does look like there's a hotspot there. Which is what I'd expect if it's high gain, which I'd expect for 75% aluminum.
Quote:
i'm not sure that you could correctly measure the gain of MM's LF, or Jimbra's soon to be release DIY screen, or even Benvin’s and my own paint mixes... because the true gain would have to be collected before it reaches the surface that harnesses that gain.
All it takes is a good light meter and two samples. Measure the light coming off BO, and call it "about 1.0." Measure the light coming off benven's (or whatever) screen. Divide it by the BO light level and you have a rough calculation of gain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benven
I would say there is not hotspotting, but a warm spot. It does not beam at you, it is very well dispersed. The outsides of the screen are a little darker, but very viewable.
OK, then we can agree it's definitely "warmer" in the middle than on the edges. We're just quibbling over the temperature. :p
Quote:
Also, I suggest if want to discuss these mixes and not jack MTyson's thread (great work BTW on this material), let's bring the comments back to either my thread or pb_maxx's.
Agreed. Apologies for contributing to thread drift. Whether it's because I'm trying to decide on a screen or everybody's into the act all of a sudden, these discussions seem to be cross-pollinating all over the place!
Quote:
By the way, I ordered 4 yards of the silver PVC material this morning. I just want to see how it stands up to my screen. :)
You dog!! MJTrends only had 4 yds in stock, or so said their website! Now I'll have to wait for them to re-order. You don't happen to have a torus frame handy, doya?? :D

Gary
post #495 of 502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by garyfritz
Yes. See e.g. the bottom picture in this post. The bottom square is straight aluminum, the top rectangles are white paper and BO. OK, maybe the BO isn't black, but it's dark gray.

Gary
I believe that's an optical illusion created by the camera's poor dynamic range and/or poor low light capability. There's no way that's the way the human eye would perceieve it even close to the same way in person as the camera does.

Also, we used two totally different cameras (different camera = different results), most likely two different exposure settings & different environment settings (note that mine was in full ambient light with a 60-watt bulb 3ft from the screen and a two large florescent lights 4 feet to the right). Our cameras most likely don't have the same dynamic range Also, it sucks in low light.

Of course I'm not claiming the SPVC to be as bright (because it probably isn't. SPVC is more of a contrast/color enhancing screen rather than a super bright screen).

BTW, the straight aluminum looks like it destroys the black level, IMO.
post #496 of 502
When I ordered my material there was 8 yards left. Sorry Gary!!

I have always stated that there was a hotter spot in the middle and cooler on the outsides. Hey, I like my temperature scale!! Don't ya know, it's always cooler in Canada. And, unfortunately, I don't have a torus frame laying around.

MTyson, I agree with what you said about the camera. In the room, the BO does look dingy and dark against my aluminum mix straight on. Off to the side, it's a different story, the BO obviously looks alot better due to lower gain. Also, the hotspotting is not as bad as what you see in the pictures. I wish I had a better camera and a better understanding of how to take good pictures. But in my opinion, unless you are doing a comparison, the screen shots are useless. You can see the differences, albeit exaggerated, between the BO cloth, white paper, pb_maxxx's mix and my mix.

My mix is also more contrast colour enhancing. It is not straight aluminum. That's why I ordered the material. Nap lines are my biggest beef with the mix, but if the material can provide similar performance....................I'm sure the material is more than bright enough and maybe with a bit more tweaking can be killer.

Everything is a compromise and my painted solution is no different. Blacks could be deeper, viewing cone could be larger, and my warmspot could be a cool spot! On the plus side, you can watch this screen in ambient light, contrast is great, it's cheap and colours are vibrant.

When I get my cloth I will take some pictures for all of us to review and comment on.

This is all exciting work and we may yet develop our own DIY DNP or Supernova clones!!
post #497 of 502
How wide can you get the fabric?
post #498 of 502
The material comes in 56" widths.
post #499 of 502
This is only my 2nd post in the avs forum, and I'm not expecting my BenQ 5720 from AVS for a couple of weeks. But I've just spent 3 hours here trying to decide what a home made screen would add to my upcoming experience :-).
So I went to mjtrends to see about their silver fabric and noticed right next to it they also have a silver embossed fabric for sale.
Any chance it might supply the matte finish needed to help avoid hotspots?
post #500 of 502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ray
This is only my 2nd post in the avs forum, and I'm not expecting my BenQ 5720 from AVS for a couple of weeks. But I've just spent 3 hours here trying to decide what a home made screen would add to my upcoming experience :-).
So I went to mjtrends to see about their silver fabric and noticed right next to it they also have a silver embossed fabric for sale.
Any chance it might supply the matte finish needed to help avoid hotspots?
No chance. It's the same material only embossed. I now use the SPVC as a Torus (curved horizontally and vertically) and it's fantastic. I was curious about trying to use the embossed SPVC in a curved screen setup to see if it further improved the SPVC's ambient light ability, since it has little shadow boxes (not sure how far away you'd have to be for them to be hard to notice though). Of course it's possible that it could cause the light to reflect into the indented area making its ambient light ability even worse since it's angular reflective.

Here are some screenshots of my SPVC Torus taken with a camcorder:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...ame-1-copy.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...-17-(4805).gif

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...y-7-(4805).gif

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...y-3-(4805).gif


MJTrends has a newer silver fabric I'm very interested in mostly for ambient light potential. It's a dark silver latex sheet. It can be shined up to a high gloss. I think I may try that. Looks like it could have potential.

Right now the SPVC in a curved setup is for those that want a SUPER HIGH gain.
post #501 of 502
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTyson
Right now the SPVC in a curved setup is for those that want a SUPER HIGH gain.
Thanks for the reply. Your shapshots look fabulous. No hot (or even warm) spots that I can see.
One thing I haven't seen in this thread is any measurement of gain. With my throw distance (19') and screen size (110") I'm anticipating a potential need for a 1.3 gain to 1.5 gain screen.
By 'super high' do you mean well over 2.0? Have you measured it yet with a light meter?
post #502 of 502
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ray
Thanks for the reply. Your shapshots look fabulous. No hot (or even warm) spots that I can see.
One thing I haven't seen in this thread is any measurement of gain. With my throw distance (19') and screen size (110") I'm anticipating a potential need for a 1.3 gain to 1.5 gain screen.
By 'super high' do you mean well over 2.0? Have you measured it yet with a light meter?
Someone in the CRT forum estimated that it may have a peak gain as high as 10 or more. However, mine is a bit less since I'm using a table mounted pj, but the difference is still very clear. Just look at the first screenshot (in the dark). The difference it that much in person.
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