Hartford, CT - OTA - Page 222

Hi I am new to this forum, but have been reading thru 1000's of interesting posts over the last 3 days try to play catch up.

One question I have that relates to something that really annoys me is New Haven CT. WCTX's station identification of MYTV-9.

For one, WCTX formally on UHF Channel 59 has never been located on the VHF-Hi channel 9 frequency.

Only WWOR Secaucus N.J. and WMUR Manchester N.H. and recently WEDN UHF channel 53 Norwich have occupied channel 9.

WCTX is NOW located on DTV RF CH. 39. So where are they getting this MYTV-9 Station Ident. from?

I think it is the most misleading information I have ever heard.

Cable 9.

- Trip

Sounds like Comcast should add WABC in HD... they already have carriage rights at least to Madison, as they have it in SD... Maybe WTNH would change their tune when that happened...

Thanks for the reply Trip.

I am not sure what cable system has them on Cable channel 9.
However, xfinity/comcast in Norwich CT. has them on channel 7 next to its sister station WTNH ch 10 New Haven on Cable channel 8.
I do find it intresting that they would base their OTA Ident on a cable allocated channel number.

There are a few markets where cable penetration is really high that they do this. Fort Myers, FL and San Diego are two of them.

- Trip

Only in New Haven's case it's stupid that about 70 miles down the road, you have THE MY-9 station (WWOR).

In San Diego you used to have KSWB-69 "CW 5" down the road from KTLA CW5 in LA, XHDTV-49 "My 13" down the road from KCOP My 13 in LA. In Fort Myers, WZVN-26 is "ABC 7" which is right next to WWSB-40, also called "ABC 7." When KNTV in San Jose first flipped to NBC, they called it "NBC 3" and finally gave it up for "NBC 11" when their ratings were being credited to KCRA "NBC 3" in Sacramento.

Nothing unique to Hartford.

- Trip

Channel 20 in Ft. Myers is called NBC-2. I believe they have the same owners as the ABC station.

Maybe so, but even in this age of digital, I refuse to call an over-the-air station by its service name. Another example I left out was Springfield, MA: WGGB-DT 40-2 calls itself "FOX 6" for cable positioning. It makes no sense if they're not on channel 6 on a given cable system.

As others have pointed out - it is just branding. In this case the 9 refers to the cable position on some cable systems.

In the markets here in the northeast typically you find that less than 10% of the viewers are watching a station off-air, e.g., most of the viewership is via cable or satellite. (Anyone in CT have DirecTV or Dish? What does WCTX-DT show up as on those systems?) In the Springfield MA market the FOX station is known as FOX6, again because of its widely used cable position. There is no separate FOX transmitter but instead it is the second digital sub channel of WGGB-DT (40.2) WGGB-DT 40.1 is known as ABC40. They could have called it FOX40 or FOX Springfield or Pioneer Valley's FOX station, etc.

There's no legal requirement on branding - the station only has to ID with its callsign/community of license. Some stations may use the callsign as their brand ... others have moved to things like ABC40 (as noted above) or even the absense of any channel number (as in The Boston Channel).

When the FCC adopted ATSC (digital television standard) they mandated that stations transmit their "channel" number embedded in the digital stream that was their previous analog number. This was (I suppose) to help viewers find and identify the digital versions of the locally known analog stations. As you've noted - many stations today transmit on a different digital channel than their old analog assignments. Hence WCTX-DT is on frequencies of RF channel 39 but in the digital stream is sending 59, their old channel number 59.

Welcome to the AVS Forums!

Thanks to all those who have replied.

RPM I agree with you about the digital recievers working both the original channel number plus the digital one, hence my OTA digital converter would display WCTX on both channel 59 and 39. (Just a note: due to terrain, WCTX is unviewable at my location OTA)
But they (WCTX) appear to be the only station viewable in this Connecticut television market which does this.

Most others are noted for their network affiliation, or their old analog channel assignment, for example: WEDN channel 53 Norwich idents its self as 53/9 on screen, since the station runs off a network feed 24/7.


It does disturb me greatly, how the cable television industry has taken over the television markets as compared to the pre-cable days.
You have to pay for what was once free to view, they make your choices for you on what you watch and when.

Years ago, you didnt have someone telling you you could not watch a show or a television station coming from another television market.

Most reception available on cable systems is for porfit only, nothing there is free and now with the reception limits on digital OTA broadcasting signals, which have made it so you have no free TV to speak of anymore.
You need a signal that is better than 60 % now for stable reception without pixelation or drop-outs ocurring.

My biggest question to America is what are you going to do if a hurricane was to strike your area and your whole cable system was destroyed requiring weeks or maybe months to repair?

What will you watch then for news and information if you have no roof-top antenna?

I am sure people have experienced this already, but it still shocks me how we are so dependent on cable television and have given up on our right to free OTA television.

I would not be surprised at all if by the year 2020 there will be no OTA televison available, Television stations will microwave their scrambled signals directly to the cable companys eliminating the direct point to point home viewer completely, just as is the case now with all the satillite stations.

MrBruce / others:

One of the issues I have with OTA tuners is that no two boxes (or set integrated tuners) work in the same way. Many will allow you to enter a number - and if there is a previously scanned (learned) station there it will be tuned in. And if that channel is the RF channel of a digital signal it will be tuned. Hence for WCTX if you put in 39 a box may tune to the DTV signal and show you 59.1. Other boxes will do nothing.

Around the world in most countries the RF channel (whether analog or digital) is not used in any branding. You get basically the network (like BBC1, CTV, RTV, ZDF, etc.) or in the case of smaller stations - some kind of branding. Likewise - in most places around the world the government issued callsign (every transmitter has one) is not often disclosed to the public. Nice we do it here - so if you catch an ID and you're DXing - you know what your watching or listening to ...

As for cable coverage - that is a very large, complex and involved thing. A combination between rules and regulations ... and carriage agreements. Here in the northeast where there is a lot of overlap in the markets it can present an issue. But elsewhere in the country where centers of markets can be far in excess of what a typical TV signal will cover - there's almost no issue at all. To wit: in the Springfield market viewers can receive off-air stations from two or three adjacent markets. The cable coverage use to reflect this as well - though changes in rules and regs plus carriage agreements have had an impact on that over the last couple of decades.

The point made about a calamity where you loose the cable plant is a good one. And it would also apply to landline based phone services. Between cable and telco - that's the majority of Internet access. As for what are people going to do? Go through Internet and entertainment withdrawal! For the serious part of the question - there's also the main FM stations that are part of the emergency alert network - that's probably where I would tune to.

Many stations feed cable and satellite providers over fibre connections (versus scrambled microwave signals). Even if fed with microwave - probably no real need to scramble. And for those "head ends" that are not fed directly via fibre ... they are picking up signals off-air from the TV station's transmitter (just like any other viewer - but with a better tuner device).

As for 2020 - if someone had a good crystal ball for that far out ... they could make a lot of money! Personally I wouldn't be surprised if you find TV stations using their RF facilities to provide other (data) services. Content on handheld devices may be in broadcasters' future - and the delivery of that content can't be tethered to cable or telco based connected services.

Ah, what will the future bring? As a consumer, I want everything for free. Alas that is not a business model that would work for anyone. The actors want to be paid. A lot. The stations pay for the content, and they want to be paid. Advertisers used to do this for us, but since the average American has the attention span of a gnat, the advertising just doesn't cut it anymore. Add that to the Tivo/DVR commercial skipper and now you have a mess.

The local off air networks are squeezing the money out of the delivery systems in place. They charge retransmission fees to the cable and phone and satellite companies, then everyone expects that there won't be any price increases. Really?

Is there perfection in this world? No. Is there a perfect system? No. Ultimately, rather than bash my provider, I evaluate my entertainment expenses and keep it in perspective. I can watch every Red Sox in game in HD on TV for the whole season for the cost of going to one once a month. Football pays off sooner. If I get HBO or Cinemax or any other premium, I get a ton of movies each month for less than the cost of going to one.

Is it perfect? No, however I get what I need for what seems like a fair price for what I get, keeping in mind that in each step of the process there are people that need to get paid, including the actors, athletes, commentators, wardrobe people, cameramen, sound guys, sales people, HR, studio technicians, head end technicians, supervisors, managers, marketing people, construction technicians, supervisors, managers, directors, field technicians, fleet managers, and other necessary employees of my provider. I won't work for free and I just can't expect anyone else to either.

Well, jeez schmitter, if you are going to be all reasonable about it, what is there to argue about?

Well i decided to reposition my monoprice antenna to the rear attic window facing east. I then did a an auto scan of all channels including cable. I still have not gotten ABC ch. 8. Ch 40.1 & 40.2 come in much better. I also now get 4 channels of PBS from wgby ch. 57. Ch 48 analog RTV comes in clearer. The tv also said i picked up 4 cable channels. 2 of them had nothing on them. one was spanish and the other was RTV again on ch. 104

Cable? Is your TV set to "AIR" or "ANTENNA"? As for the Spanish stations, would they be low-power analog channel 47 (Telefutura) or analog channel 50 (Telemundo)?

when I search for channels on my new samsung tv, it searches for 4 different channel types:
DTV Air
Air
DTV Cable
& Cable

In the "cable" category it finds 5 channels. Ch 89 which is showing ch 38 spanish, ch 104 showing ch 48 RTV, ch 106 Telemundo HD and last 2 dont come in with any picture Ch 105 & 123

You should search Air and not Cable. You'll find 38 correctly on 38, 48 correctly on 48, and 50 (which is not HD) correctly on 50.

- Trip

yes, i get all those too

I haven't had the antenna on my 4-year-old Sanyo 26" LCD HDTV in ages. All I do know is that analog channel 47 was really weak and I didn't get anything on channel 38 or 50. I only have an indoor antenna and I'm in the south end of New Britain, with Walnut Hill and the hospital rising up behind my house.

Cable Ch 89 is in the same frequency range as OTA 38.
Cable Ch 104 is in the same channel range as OTA 48.
Cable Ch 106 is in the same channel range as OTA 50.

It sounds like there is a software problem with your set. The cable channels are offset from the OTA channels by 2 MHz and it is scanning the cable frequencies, which it should find as QAM carriers, as ASTC carriers. You should be able to tell the set to do an OTA scan only, that way you will not get duplicates and it will find the channels at the correct frequencies.

Normally my set scans channels in STD, but what are HRC & IRC?

HRC = harmonically related carriers
IRC = incrementally related carries
different ways that the frequencies for cable channels are determined - see:
http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/cablech.html

These policies drive me nuts, since the physical RF channel number determines the reception, and whether it is VHF or UHF. I wish they had mandated that they use their physical RF channel number in labeling and in all branding that involves numbers. Cable companies should also be required to re-map them as their physical numbers, and not have any other channels between 2 and 69 or whatever the top of the broadcast spectrum is now, like satellite does. It's not hard to do, its just a bunch of software in the box.

What would be a really big thing would be for people to be able to make up their own channel lineup, with their own channel numbers. They could go online, do it, and then it would be pushed out to the boxes remotely. That would be really sweet. I'm surprised the satellite and cable providers haven't done that yet, considering that everything these days is in software anyways.

If you have a hurricane and the cable plant is down, maybe some neighbor will have DISH or DirecTV, or you could go on your Android/ WebOS/ Crackberry/ Jesus Phone/S60 and get information that way, assuming that a cell network is up an running, if need be through a sat-linked COW.

I have been having a problem with WTIC OTA. Any national programming is fine, I get no local programming. During a national broadcast for instance if the commercial is local, I get the no signal message. Same for their local news, etc... When I check, the signal strength itself is fine. I have rescanned, with no success. Any ideas?
I am not using anything between the antenna and the TV. (No Digital box, etc...) This is new over the last few weeks or so.
The correct info shows all the time - national or local programming.
Thanks.

EDIT - I received a reply by an engineer from Tribune broadcasting. Though I am the only one to have written with this problem, they did change to a new Encoder about two or three weeks ago or so. He will contact the manufacturer and see if it is known bug.

The public in general doesn't understand channels and relation to VHF/UHF. Even people who had over the air reception prior to the digital conversion were confused when a station moved from VHF to UHF or vice versa. (The issue was not really with the channel number but the need for different types of antennas based on the frequency of the channel.) Once you scan and find your channels - the need to know what RF channel a station is on is moot.

Here's another example of how the current system provides some flexibility: WNYW-DT transmits on RF channel 44. Their sub channels are 5.1 (WNYW) and 9.2 (WWOR). WWOR-DT transmits on RF channel 38. Their sub channels are 9.1 (WWOR) and 5.2 (WNYW). There are networks of PBS stations that also do creative things with the PSIP (embedded channel info) in their digital transmissions.


They did - at least on a technical basis. Broadcasters have to embed a major and minor channel number in their ATSC (DTV) streams. The major channel number has to be whatever analog channel they were previously assigned. This is why WTIC-DT is 61.1. Even though the station may have some kind of branding (like FOX CT or FOX61) most people will remember this station as channel 61 - and the FCC requirements took care of that.

There is no regulation anywhere for what a station wants to call itself. (see previous postings)


A book could probably be written about this one - there's a lot of history behind it. In a totally digital cable plant this would be easy - but we are not there today. That's why some higher numbered stations (WTIC channel 61 for example) may have opted for a channel like 6 ... especially since even the most basic cable package would provide a dozen or so analog channels. Plus: off-air channel number frequencies don't map one-to-one with cable RF channel frequencies. BTW: today's off-air stations can operate on VHF channels 2 to 13 and UHF channels 14 to 51. Channel 37 is not available anywhere and in some urban areas the lower UHF channels have also been reassigned (to non-broadcast use). Not many ATSC (digital television) stations use the low VHF channels (2 through 6) dues to impulse and other interference issues.


Yea - that would be a cool idea ... but I bet to build the infrastructure to do that wouldn't be cheap. Would you be willing to pay for that feature? I'll take it one step further: I'd love to only pay for what I want to watch. For example, I don't watch any sports channels - noting that for the first time in six or more years I did with a couple of World Cup games. Things would be a whole lot different if an Ã* la carte scheme were made available.

The virtual channels make it more confusing, since 2-13 are VHF and the rest are UHF, that's pretty simple. Soon as you get virtual channels you have to go and look them up.

I don't know what WNYW is smoking, but that is a mess. Talk about confusing.

They are not embedding their physical channel, but rather their former physical channel, which now has no meaning.

I know that physical channels have no meaning on a modern HFC plant. Granted, there are still a LOT of plants out there with analog, but in the very near future, many will have zero analog. QAM channels are all remapped anyways, and in fact, get different mapping data depending on if they are received through a box (three digit) or clear QAM (OTA+ subchannels). Adding a new map to an individual box should be a pretty simple matter, and it would just download the map, which would be a small database file generated by a server that knows the physical mapping of that system (or in the future, generated to map to another database that is updated on the fly from SDV), which would be loaded into the box's RAM every time it's turned on.

Considering that we are moving towards SDV, where the physical channel can vary wildly for the same stream from day to day, mapping the other side of it, the GUI, to custom channels shouldn't be too hard. I think the thing stopping it for cable right now is that many digital subscribers still have old TV's or clear QAM tv's that don't have MSO-provided boxes, and DTA's probably can't handle the mapping operations. If they would just put all the TV's (except for CC) on the system on full boxes, all sorts of cool stuff would be possible.

Both stations are owned by the same company. Both transmitters carry both program streams (albeit the dot 2 channel is in SD). If a viewer was unable to receive off-air reception of one transmitter but did receive the other - they'd now have access to programming (by virtual of the second stream) that they otherwise wouldn't have / get. Actually not a bad idea and reasonable use of the bandwidth.

Unless you made a typo, shouldn't WNYW & WWOR be using their previous individual analog channel as their individual major number?

WNYW 5.1 (WNYW)
WNYW 5.2 (WWOR) and not 9.2?

WWOR 9.1 (WWOR)
WWOR 9.2 (WNYW) and not 5.2?

No, RPMcCormick is correct.

WNYW-44
5-1 720p Fox
9-2 480i MyN

WWOR-38
9-1 720p MyN
5-2 480i Fox

- Trip