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JudderTest software - Page 3

post #61 of 255
Is it supposed to automatically detect the refresh rate?, becasue I see no where to enter it. The program executes fine on both my gaming computer and my HTPC but on both machines it renders at over 1000fps. It appears to not know the correct refresh rate. Both machines run ATI cards one a 9500 pro and the other a 8500, and there both Athlon XP's.

I just got a new projector and I want to figure out what the native refresh rate of it is.
post #62 of 255
Thread Starter 

Originally posted by Burrito
This is, without a doubt, the "HTPC TOOL OF THE YEAR"!

Why ist this thread so slow/silent?

Don't people get what this program really is for? *sigh*

Thanks. Although I'm happy some have minimized tearing issues with the help of JudderTest, I did expect more talk about judder and different projector models.

Maybe people are too sad to talk after realizing their projector is juddering and there's no cure for them?

Maybe the bar is too simple and boring, maybe it should be a nude lady walking across the screen?
post #63 of 255
Thread Starter 

Originally posted by rubent
Is it supposed to automatically detect the refresh rate?, becasue I see no where to enter it. The program executes fine on both my gaming computer and my HTPC but on both machines it renders at over 1000fps. It appears to not know the correct refresh rate. Both machines run ATI cards one a 9500 pro and the other a 8500, and there both Athlon XP's.

I just got a new projector and I want to figure out what the native refresh rate of it is.

1000? It does not actually detect the refresh rate, it just calls DirectX to sync to the vertical blanking. There is an option in your video settings to enable/disable syncing to the vertical refresh rate. I'm not sure what the exact name is. It sounds like this is may be disabled on your computers.

Does the bar move very fast across the screen? It should move slowly.

Figuring out your projector's native refresh rate is a matter of trying different rates in Powerstrip until you find one that does not judder.
post #64 of 255
Thanks for this great program. I used it on my HTPC with my PLV-Z2 at 1280x720@50,000Hz. Absolutely no tearing, the bar is running smooth. I did test with 48Hz and there was tearing evident. Still, since I view mostly PAL material and can use Reclock to Speed-Up NTSC film to 25Hz its working perfect for me.

I noticed two things:

1) After I once booted with the Projector not attached, the bar was moving at top speed, obviously, the VSync detection did not work. Re-registering the Monitor Driver with the projector attached fixed this.

2) Initially, I got some stutter even with real-time priority, and less then 50 fps were displayed. I had to dieable both VNC and my Virus checker to (nearly) eliminate this. Video playback, also using the build-in juder test bar of Reclock, was smooth, however.

post #65 of 255
Thread Starter 

are you using the latest version of JudderTest? It should be very easy on the CPU. I'm excited to hear that PLV-Z2 does not judder at 50Hz!
post #66 of 255
According to Cine4Home.de, the Sanyo PLV-Z2 is judder-free with 50Hz over analog RGBHV input with the following parameters:

Fine sync. 14
Tracking 1648
Horizontal 263
Vertikal 26
Clamp 3
Display area H 1280
Display area V 720

DVI is also judder free at PAL resolutions, but only at 1024x576p with internal scaling.

Please post your results! Who is doing a database?
post #67 of 255
Thread Starter 
I plan to keep a public database of results available. Post in this thread for the time being.
post #68 of 255
Once again, great tool Arca. I've been using this for several weeks now. I have got powerstrip running the refresh rate faultlessly, but unfortunately seeing as all of my DVD's are in PAL, I have judder. I'd like to quote these figures for your database.

Projector: Infocus LP250
Native Resolution: 1024x768 4:3
Best Refresh Rate: 62.156Hz

Best Powerstrip settings found:
Active lines: 768
Front porch lines: 3
Sync Lines: 5
Back Porch lines: 60
Total lines: 836

I've decided to mount a mission to see if it's possible to change a digital projectors native refresh rate (might be as simple as a variable resistor on one of the boards). I will post anything I find out.
post #69 of 255
I realise they don't make this one any more, but since not many have posted detailed results, I thought I'd post the results anyway.

I've had a go with this as I do get slight tearing on DVD playing, but strangely not when watching digital TV.

Running this program, I never see the slightest hint of tearing, and at best it is to my eyes very smooth, although I wouldn't say it is absolutely perfect.

The bar doesn't give the appearance of perfectly smooth motion, but there is no obvious judder at the frequencies that work well.

I am wondering if it would be more realistic to smooth the edges of the bar slightly, rather than the very sharp edge that it has, which would be more representative

100Hz best overall setting
100Hz div 4 appears just as good
90 Hz OK
85 Hz nearly OK, obvious hiccup every 4 - 5 seconds
75 Hz slight hiccups about 3 or 4 per second
72 Hz slight hiccup about 2 per second
70 Hz slight hiccup every 3 seconds
60 Hz OK

I don't run powerstrip, so these are the only frequencies on offer.

Radeon 9500 on Athlon / Asus based PC
post #70 of 255
Thread Starter 

thanks for your results. Older projectors are welcome too. It would be interesting to see 50Hz on the PLV-30 (and PLV-70) since 100Hz is ok.

About smoothing edges and about simulating 24fps that some have requested, this would defeat the purpose of the tool. I wrote the tool to avoid things like smoothing and computer-side frame-rate conversions. We need one tool for revealing the projector's judder as best as possible so we can judge the problem. Smoothing and other means for concealing the problem is for DVD-player software to implement - that's where you don't want to see judder.
post #71 of 255
I'm not shure I get this, when I run it on my pc that is connected to a LT150z (DLP) at 1024x768@60Hz I dont see any judder or stutter.

60Hz should be the internal speed of this projector.

I usually watch PAL movies ( 25 fps, live in PAL land), what values should i fill in?

Though it shows the rainbow effect in a nice way ;-)
post #72 of 255

I used V0.3 for my tests. It was no problem to clearly see all the effects, and with Virus Scan etc. turned off it worked without stuttering. The tearing and stuttering which was very obvious on my Philips Monroe, at 50 Hz, had completely disappeared on the Z2 (1280x720@50Hz, RGB analog).

Since I own some few NTSC discs, I tried 48Hz and 72Hz in the same resolution, but this showed alot of tearing so it is clearly not a good choice for the Z2. Since 60Hz progressive would also be a problem because its not an even multiple of the 24Hz the material was filmed in (the reason 3:2 pulldown is used for NTSC, after all), I use Reclock to do a speedup of the DVD to 25Hz . I use analog Audio from my HTPC, so Reclock can do a audio speedup (with the typical half-tone pitching included, which I am used to). Great, smooth motion, and much better than having the tearing in any case.

post #73 of 255
Thread Starter 

Originally posted by konfucius
I usually watch PAL movies ( 25 fps, live in PAL land), what values should i fill in?

You should change your desktop to 50/75/100Hz first (use Powerstrip to set it accurately), then set the speed divider to 2, 3 or 4 respectively to get a 25 fps output.


Though it shows the rainbow effect in a nice way ;-)

I'm sure!
post #74 of 255
- 47.96Hz judders and tears
- 50Hz ok
- 60Hz ok
- 75Hz judders and tears

Thanks alot for that. Very interesting.

post #75 of 255
Thanks for a good tool, but I cant use it!?!

Ive tested on my 2 different computers (htpc with ATI AIW 9000 Pro and notebook with inbuilt video). Boths with Win XP installed from formated hdd (very little s/w installed).
Ive copied MFC42.DLL and the MSVCRT.DLL to system folder.
When I start juddertest (V0.4) I do get the settings window, but when I hit "run" the computers just hangs and the only recover is to do a hard reset. It works well on my computer at work.
Can it be some more file Im missing?? That users normaly gets installed by another s/w.
Is it possibile for You to compile a "stand alone" version without the need of the run time dll's. I know its possible in Borland C++ Builder.
post #76 of 255

I have the same problem, but if I switch to "primary display" in the dropdown box it works fine for me.
post #77 of 255
Thread Starter 
Yes, that sounds like a display device bug. I have my 9800 pro now and will fix this the coming days. I had no way to debug it with my old card.
post #78 of 255
konfucius and arca,
thank You, now it works...

My PLV-Z2 is totaly judderfree, completly smoth with DVI-A (analoge=VGA).
50 Hz 1280x720 with the settings above.

But with 1280x720 50Hz DVI-D its alot of judder and other "hickups".

Im satisfied to use the VGA input on the Z2. The picture is GOOD!!!

post #79 of 255
I tried this on my Nec LT150z (DLP):

50Hz > Lot's of judder
60Hz > No judder
75Hz > Almost no judder
100Hz > Little judder
120Hz > Pretty good, little judder.

So I concentrated on fineadjusting around 60Hz, but could not get it any better than it already was (no judder), no change for me.

The LT150z has an internal freq of 60Hz even though i run it on 230V@50Hz, so I see a little micorstuttering in pans when I watch PAL movies.
post #80 of 255
Arca How is your Public Database coming ? Would this thread contain the only projector results or do you have more info ?
post #81 of 255
Thread Starter 
It's going slow. What's in this thread is all I have. Many are downloading the tool, but few are reporting. I think this will change with version 1.0. It'll have built-in reporting and the database will be available on the web.
post #82 of 255
Tried your software with my Sony HS-20, tried two screen-modes:
1368x768/56Hz and 1280x768/60 Hz. Both showed perfect "judderfree" pans from left to right. Would be cool to see up/down pans as well.

PS! Tried the program without Powerstrip running at first, and the machine hung. Then I started powerstrip, verified that V-sync was enables, and tried again, now the program worked perfectly.

Tore K.
post #83 of 255
Thread Starter 

Did you try 48/72Hz or 50/75Hz?

I should check for enabled V-sync.
post #84 of 255

Originally posted by arca

Did you try 48/72Hz or 50/75Hz?

I should check for enabled V-sync.

No, the HS-20 can't do 72Hz except in 800x600. So it's up to the DVD player program to fit the best number of frames into 56 frames pr. second.

1024x768 supports both 75Hz and 72 Hz, but still not a resolution I want to use.

Tore K.
post #85 of 255
Here are some findings on my Sony 10HT (1386*768 native LCD projector)... some of them are a little bit strange:

Feeding the projector a 1080i signal at either 48Hz (fH: 27.0 kHz, fV: 48.0Hz), 50Hz (28.13/50) or 60Hz (33.75/60), the bar moves smoothly. There is some significant horizontal flicker, which is to be expected at the 24 and 25 Hz refresh rates, but this is not an issue with video thankfully. I'm guessing that the scaler, which can't be completely bypassed explains these good results.

There is always some slight jerkiness when I feed the projector an XGA -1024x768 signal (I wasn't expecting this)... I didn't try every possible refresh rate, but it is there at 56Hz, 60.009Hz, 59.999Hz, 70, 72 and 75 Hz... more experimentation might yield success, although I rarely watch video at this resolution.

post #86 of 255
Thread Starter 
I have uploaded a new beta (0.5) with support for multiple displays and some glaring bugs fixed. MFC42 is linked statically and should not be needed as a DLL anymore.
post #87 of 255
This program is quite usefull. ( Tack så mycket Arca...tror jag )

Don't know if it's applicable to my setup but it sure show some intersting results.
I use at the moment an HTPC with a Ati 9700Pro to my CRT PJ Barco 808. (haven't tested the software with that yet, will do it later today, it's 04:00 now ).

When I try the software on my office PC with an Ati FireGL X1 card (based around the 9700 core) I can see stuttering/judder with a CRT monitor.
I'll admit that I have to try it on my HT setup but I can clearly see the bar not moving smoothly.

If I look slightly off from the bar (not following it) it runs smoothly, if I look at the bar it does not.
I've had this problem with my HTPC and it's that I can't get rid of the stutters.
So the million dollar question is if I'm soo sensitive to it that I can see it even with a monitor/pj that doesn't have a fixed rate ?
E.g. like some people are more sensitive to rainbow artifacts then others.
Or if it's an inherit problem with the HTPC all together ?
post #88 of 255
Thread Starter 
Hej Fredrik,

is JudderTest reporting the same refresh-rate as your display settings?

As for sensitivity, motion on a display is of course not true motion so if the frame-rate is too low, the illusion of motion will break and it will appear as the bar is skipping forward. If (vertical refresh / speed divider) is at least 24, it should look smooth to most people. But I'll admit that sometimes 24 fps looks to me as bordering on jerky. It's like I can't make up my mind, "is this really smooth or not?"
post #89 of 255
When I run this on my CRT monitor I get a perfectly clean image, even if I speed up the bar by 10x.

When I run it on my plasma via DVI (same video card) it is clean at normal speed but as I increase the speed the bar gets blurred at each edge (sort of a blue halo on one side and orange on the other).

What does this mean???
post #90 of 255
My plasma give me 48Hz, 50Hz and 60hz without any sign of judder at all; smoothest scrolling bar you can imagine on these three inputs.

However, some new plasmas have 100Hz and 120Hz buffers, so the literature says.

How can one know if 75Hz's judder is caused by being downed to 60Hz or upped to 100Hz? e.g. if I run a 120Hz signal to my plasma the line is just as smooth as 60Hz.

I have a proposal: alternate image on alternate frame. Perhaps solid bar on odd frames and one made of horizontal lines (alternate one black and one white) for the even frames; or even frames one colour and odd frames another.

The result would show flicker between the two images (or colours) if display is upping to 120Hz; whereas if the screen is really 60Hz it would display either image (or colour) only, solidly with no flicker.

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