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Denon 5900 macroblocking favor - Page 6  

post #151 of 1111
I will also put in a plug on the 5900's sound:

In my system - Lexicon MC-12, Parasound Amps, M&K Speakers all around - the 5900 sounds phenominal on DVD movies, DVD-Audio, SACD, and redbook CD. In fact, the best sounding cd/dvd player I've yet had in my system. No bright in any way.

I'm very satisfied!
post #152 of 1111
Another movie I remembered seeing macro blocking in was Pitch Black as ironic as that sounds.
No amount of adjusting the video controls got rid of the macro blocking that I saw.

I saw macro blocking in more movies than have been mentioned in this thread.

I want to know if anyone whith a dlp has watched dozens of movies whith dark scenes and not seen the macro blocking?

If so, maybe I will try a different 5900 out.
post #153 of 1111
Mantasack,
Are these ops amps plug-in/plug-out chips
or are they soldered.
I'm going to assume that you noticed a difference.
post #154 of 1111
Softengr - I am a bit curious about your audio comparisons between the 2900 and 5900 and would appreciate how they sounded on your set up. I trust that they do have similar electronics, but I have always heard improvements with higher quality transports, separate power capacitors, etc. If you truly didn't hear any difference on your system, I'll have to dissuade some of ny friends from pullig the trigger on the 5900.
If there is little or no difference between components with nearly the same audio electronics, then there shouldn't be much of a difference between $$$$ flagship players and the entry level products that toutes many of the same electronics as the flagships.
Thanks!
Elbert
post #155 of 1111
Earz,

What chapters in pitch black have you had the problem with the macroblocking. I have this DVD and I'll check it out to see if I have the problem on this disc. FYI my display is a Tosh 57hx81 CRT based RPTV. I have had only 2 DVD's out of about 75 that I've checked that any hint of macroblocking and even then it was limited to only a min or two.

Ron
post #156 of 1111
Quote:
Originally posted by nighthacker
Earz,

What chapters in pitch black have you had the problem with the macroblocking. I have this DVD and I'll check it out to see if I have the problem on this disc. FYI my display is a Tosh 57hx81 CRT based RPTV. I have had only 2 DVD's out of about 75 that I've checked that any hint of macroblocking and even then it was limited to only a min or two.

Ron
I don't know what chapters but basically it is when the survivors are heading to the escape ship and there last bit of light is all but gone.

So just before they hide in the small cave through the final escape scene but only in dark scenes.

I believe digital displays have a lot bigger percentage of movies whith macro blocking in dark scenes than CRT's for some reason because my percentage of movies whith macro blocking was much greater than 2 out of 75.
post #157 of 1111
"I am sharing my experience to cause potential Denon owners to critically think by giving then the facts. I'll bet that the 5900 will be available for $1200 with in six months."

That would be interesting, seeing $1200 is below cost. I don't think you'll even see "e-tailers" offering this price.
post #158 of 1111
Quote:
Originally posted by softengr
I am an engineer with 25 years of experience in audio and video. I try to advance the art.

I am sharing my experience to cause potential Denon owners to critically think by giving then the facts. I'll bet that the 5900 will be available for $1200 with in six months.

I guess I should format this the proper way! See my post above.
post #159 of 1111
Thread Starter 
I will check the Pitch Black scene as well. The only video annomaly I have seen so far was with Avia in the IRE window patterns. I have a plasma, not a DLP though.
post #160 of 1111
Kris, why is the link to your shootout/Review of the 5900 impossible to find from the Secrets Homepage?
Dan
post #161 of 1111
Thread Starter 
It is up on the mainpage now. The results are in the new shootout and there will be a full review up hopefully in the next few weeks. I am writing it now.
post #162 of 1111
Earz,

I checked those scenes in pitch black on my 5900 and I did not have any issue with macroblocking at all. My display is a a tosh 57hx81 RPTV which is CRT based. PQ looked great, the blacks were deep and detailed with the image looking very sharp and 3d like.

Ron
post #163 of 1111
Does Denon plan on releasing a solid video performer(DVI etc.) like the 5900, only cheaper(no DVD audio and no SACD, less features)?
post #164 of 1111
Quote:
Originally posted by nighthacker
Earz,

I checked those scenes in pitch black on my 5900 and I did not have any issue with macroblocking at all. My display is a a tosh 57hx81 RPTV which is CRT based. PQ looked great, the blacks were deep and detailed with the image looking very sharp and 3d like.

Ron
I have a feeling that the macro blocking has more to do whith the display used with the 5900 than anything else as I also had macro blocking in Blade 2 which Kris said he did not see on his display.

So except for movies like Unbreakable were the macro blocking has been seen on other types of displays whith the 5900, the problem discs that I saw are a problem whith only the 5900 and my DLP.

I guess I will have to wait till another player comes out that has the video quality of the 5900 but also works whith DLP.

If there were enough info available from other DLP owners that have tried the 5900 whithout the macro blocking, I would consider a different projector than my current x1 .

After watching the great transfer on Bad Boys, I was reminded of the great video from the 5900 whith lesser transfers.:(
post #165 of 1111
Thread Starter 
Most displays that are digital based (plasma, DLP, LCD) are limited to 8 bit gamma processing. This may add to the problem as well. Remember how bad early plasma displays looked?!? What we are seeing may be similar to that. Again a lot has to do with compression as well, as is the case with Unbreakable.
post #166 of 1111
"Most displays that are digital based (plasma, DLP, LCD) are limited to 8 bit gamma processing. This may add to the problem as well"

Why will that add to the problem. Will you get better quality from a higher bit display even though DVD is limited to only 8 bits? Does it also then matter that the FLI23XX is only 8 bits, but weren´t the 22XX 10 bit?
post #167 of 1111
keyser, I'm not certain of the technicalities, but it's typical of digital processing that often a source is at it's best by processing that has higher resolutions, like upsampling/oversampling of CD's or 50/100k SACD processing. So it's quite likely that improved processing resolution will in fact lead to a better picture.
post #168 of 1111
I recall reading somewhere that a display of higher bits(than the source) would result in worse PQ because of colour problems(or something very technical), I guess it was just BS.

Do then the latest plasma(10-12bit) have an advantade over DLP´s in that regard?
post #169 of 1111
Great question Keyser. If I remember correctly, Thomas J. Norton (Stereophile editor) hosted a round-table discussion at the CES show a few years ago and remarked that he felt plasma wouldn't become truly satisfying until it had 12 bit resolution.
post #170 of 1111
Quote:
Does it also then matter that the FLI23XX is only 8 bits, but weren´t the 22XX 10 bit?
The FLI23xx is 10-bit as well, internal. It only accepts 8-bit input, which is what comes out of the MPEG decoder. As soon as it comes in, all processing is done at 10-bit or higher. On output you can select 8 or 10-bit.

The FLI23xx actually fixes some deinterlacing issues that exist in the FLI22xx chips. It can run at 48 Hz or 72 Hz too, something the FLI22xx can't do. Then there is aspect ratio control and many more features.

The PixelWorks chip that is in many displays actually does its work at 8-bit precision. The FLI23xx is a much better scaler.

HD2+ accepts 10-bit in and runs at 12-bit internal. They are way ahead of Plasma. The new Sony HS20 claims 12-bit processing.

The FL23xx really should have allowed 10-bit input. HDMI will allow 10-bit, but if you have to pass through the 23xx, you are screwed. We can hope displays that offer 10-bit will bypass if they get a native signal. (native to panel)
post #171 of 1111
Stacey, on the Secrets site you give an introduction to digital video on DVDs in Section 1 -- Video. Is there any way you can add a section on the differences between the video and PC DVI standards for digital video and why those differences exist? The question or a related one comes up often and it would be nice to have an explanation available to reference -- not to mention another one of the many reasons to direct people to the Secrets site.
post #172 of 1111
Is it likely that Denon will release a firmware that fixes the cropping "problem"? Have they done anything like that in the past?
post #173 of 1111
Current graphics drivers, when using the VMR, now have 'video' levels for DVI. So, both the PC and your DVD player will have black at at the correct digital level of 16 over DVI. :) This change first occured with MCE 2004.
post #174 of 1111
What cropping problem. I don't see any problem on my 5900. Do you have to be in a certain mode to see the problem.

Ron
post #175 of 1111
I had posted the following on a seperate thread...but another AVSForum member thought my issue might be macroblocking......so I'm posting it again here in hopes that some of you that have experienced this "macroblocking" might be able to identify my issues as macroblocking....so here's my issues...and please if this sounds like macroblocking to you...please let me know..I'd appreciate it. IN FACT, ANY COMMENTS OR ADVICE WOULD BE APPRECIATED!!!!!

"TH-50PHD6UY..Strange PQ Issue..HELP"

"I need some expert advice from the many great AVSForum members out there. I'll try to be brief in explaining the proble...so here goes.

I purchased a Panny TH-50PHD6UY from Visual Apex about six weeks ago. I also purchase a new Denon DVD-5900 from Crutchfields and the Panny DVI blade for the 6UY from VA.

Anyway, I've immediately noticed issues with poor PQ while playing DVDs. Dark black images on the Panny appear purplely (purple) and washed out...at times it's so bad the picture can look like a purple watercolor painting. I've tried countless DVDs and the result are the same. At first I thought it must be an issue with the DVD player.

I had a ISF technician out about two weeks ago whom spent nearly three hours trying to calibrate the Panny....he gave up and claimed the Panny was having problems with all HD signals including satellite signals. We input DVI DVD signals at 480p/720p/&1080i with the same results. We input DVD signals through the various other Panny inputs using component, S-Video, whatever with the same results. He was also having the same issues when he put HD test patterns into the Panny from his test equipment.

Anyway, I informed Visual Apex, and talked to Panisonic and one week later I had a new TH-50PHD6UY delivered (Panasonic said that if a ISF technician couldn't calibrate the Panny there was no use in sending it to the Panny Service Center..they'd just repeat the calibration steps the ISF technician performed).

To my surprise, I'm having the same exact issues with the new Panny. Which makes me believe now that it could be an issue with the Panny (what are the odds of two faulty Pannys...when the Panny technician told me he hadn't heard of any similar issues with any of their plasmas). I believe I have eliminated any possible issues with the DVD player(s) and Panny inputs....I have used two different DVD players with two different DVI cables...different component cables, and different S-video cables.... to different Panny inputs whith the same purple images....so I know it is not the DVD player(s)...plus I get some of the same issues while watching DirecTV with both SD and HD.

I can get the purple coloration to disappear if I crank the brightness level down from the default of 0 to -25 but I lose PQ (detail). I've also eliminated possible interference from my DirecTV and ReplayTV boxes by turning them off while viewing a DVD...but I get the same issues.

I've played with the Panny Picture Menu settings from Auto..to STD..to Dynamic..to Cinema...and can't solve the issue. If played with the Color Temp settings from Normal..to Cool...to Warm...I'm lost!!!!!

I am considering having a different ISF technician come out to calibrate the Panny but I'm already out $250 for the first ISF technician to partially calibrate the first Panny which is in the box in the garage.

I guess I'm going to have to have another ISF technician come out (I don't have any other recourse...I can't watch washed out purplely images on a $8K plasma/DVD setup!!!! I don't see the need to even explore the idea of a third Panny delivered to my home! I'm also considering a higher end Monster Power Center to filter all my equipment.

Any suggestion out there I might try???? Different Settings? Anyone have a similar setup and did you also have to crank the default Brightness Level down to solve similar issues?? Thanks.......HELP!!!!""""""""
post #176 of 1111
Thread Starter 
Plasma monitors are extremelly tricky to setup and involve a LOT of trial and error. The purple problem stems from the gamma setup which may be way off on the Panny. There could be other things as well. Without seeing your setup and getting a look at it first hand myself there isn't much I can do for you, and you'll probably find the same of most others. I have a NEC plasma and it took several hours to dial it in with a lot of trial and error to figure out all of the quircks with the display. Now it is a great monitor but still suffers slightly from gamma issues that are common with plasma (slight solarization with some material).
post #177 of 1111
nighthacker "What cropping problem. I don't see any problem on my 5900. Do you have to be in a certain mode to see the problem."

It´s hardly a huge problem, but I guote the benchmark test "The 5900 passed just about all of our tests with the exception of pixel cropping. For some reason, five pixels were cropped on the right side of the image."

Which gives it a "borderline" performance.

To the benchmark guys,

Are you planning on testing the video levels, yc delay (and give the DVI a more thorough inspection) later?
post #178 of 1111
Thread Starter 
Yes
post #179 of 1111
Brilliant. Is there a timeframe you can say for the testing?
post #180 of 1111
I had my second intance of macroblocking last night. I was watching Varsity Blues on my Hitachi 57SWX20B and had a macroblocking sky as busses were traveling down a road. It was pretty minimal, but was there. The weird thing was, is that it was a dusk sky (more blue than black). The only other instance that I have had was with Bend it like Beckham.

Dave
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