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Denon 5900 macroblocking favor - Page 9  

post #241 of 1111
Thread Starter 
Having your display calibrated AFTER you get the 5900 is extremelly important and will help tremendously with the issues.

As for the Contrast issue, I let them know that the proper way to execute this test is with an O-Scope. You can check the voltages directly to ensure that 0 IRE and 100 IRE are in fact being displayed. This is the most accurate way and normally a test we do, but with our scope stolen we haven't had the chance to find a replacement yet; which can be VERY expensive.

We will test this as soon as possible though and report on it.
post #242 of 1111
Greetings everyone,

Once again, we thank you all for your comments and concerns about our article. Since this weekend, I have contacted Milori and had a fairly lengthy discussion with them. While the key person is traveling, I was able to catch him on his cell phone. From his initial comments, I have the following information to report.

1) Validity of Test - First of all, Mark was intrigued by our testing procedure and indicated that if the only variable is the DVD player, then this seems to be a valid method of comparison. As we indicated in our review, this is not an absolute measurement, but comparative. He seemed to agree that this is indeed valid.

2) Trichromat Sensor - Mark told me that it is very true that this sensor (as with many others including the Sencore) does not measure color within 2% at or below 10-IRE. I asked him the following. If the sensor can not measure color within 2% at 10-IRE, then how can it measure black and white and provide an accurate contrast ratio? Mark indicated that this was a great question, and offered the following response. The Trichromat Sensor is made up of four sensors potted into a housing. Three sensors are for color and the fourth gell mounted sensor is for measuring light (luminous) intensity. While the sensor does go "color blind" below 10-IRE and can not measure color below this, it is still able to measure light power and therefore, fully capable of providing contrast ratios, as indicated in their ColorFacts software.

3) Mark is still coming back from traveling and on a busy schedule, but he did assure me that he will review our article and our test procedure. From what I've described to him, he still seems to feel that while we are not providing absolute measurements, we are providing a "real world" application and showing a valid comparison.

Lastly, I did spend some time updating the article based on everyones feedback herein. For starters, I toned down the accusation of the "Contrast Bug" until we really know for sure. The other thing I added was the fact that our measurements were based on the DVD player being on the 7.5-IRE setting. To be honest with you all, the manual for this player stinks, and we honestly didn't know the player had this setting. We were aware of the chroma settings, and brightness and contrast settings, and did our best to adjust them, but we didn't know it had another entire setting for clipping the player at 7.5-IRE. I have mailed the sensor to Gene and he will be doing the test over at the 0-IRE setting later this week. But from what we've seen, it seems to not only tone down the black, but the white as well when switching this setting.

Anyway, we really do appreciate everyone's professional, proactive comments. If it's OK with you all, we will continue to monitor this forum and respond accordingly. In the mean time, we have indeed updated the article and thanks for all your input and comments.


__________________
Steve DellaSala
Audioholics
post #243 of 1111
Quote:
Originally posted by sspears
Current graphics drivers, when using the VMR, now have 'video' levels for DVI. So, both the PC and your DVD player will have black at at the correct digital level of 16 over DVI. :) This change first occured with MCE 2004.
Sorry, I am still a little bit thick about it. Are you saying that a value of 16-Luma coming out of the MPEG2 decoder will be passed thru the VMR and out of the DVI port as 16 (color-spaced converted from YUV to RGB) or are you saying that MPEG2 decoder values of *0* are passed thru the D VI port as 16?

If the latter, how do I avoid clipping of below-16 Luma?

Also, is this DVI behaviour the same with VMR7 and VMR9?

Specifically, I am trying to configure Media Player Classic (yeah, yeah, I miss the old tiny Microsoft player) using its internal MPEG2 decoder to do the right thing. It allows for "expanding" 16-235 to 0-255. Have you seen this option? I would assume that expanding is the equivalent to clipping.

-Reardon
post #244 of 1111
If you want to minimize the macroblocking, their is a way to do it. Kris at Secrets was nice enough to share this with me. Go into the picuture setup menu on the 5900 with the VE 20IRE window showing. Adjust the black level control (on second menu page), until the macroblocking is minimized. It doesn't completely get rid of it, but it minimizes it greatly if done right. Once you do this, you need to reset contrast and brightness (mostly brightness) on your display using either Avia or VE (I prefer Avia). After doing this tweak, I put in a disk that I saw macroblocking on (Seabiscuit) and the artifacts were now gone.

Good Luck.

Dave
post #245 of 1111
I'm sorry, I think the idea of having to tweak a $1500 DVD player to not quite get rid of a picture defect (macroblocking) is preposterous. Denon needs to respond to this. Too much has been said about this for it to be a quirk.
post #246 of 1111
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Martin Butler
I'm sorry, I think the idea of having to tweak a $1500 DVD player to not quite get rid of a picture defect (macroblocking) is preposterous. Denon needs to respond to this. Too much has been said about this for it to be a quirk.
While I agree that Denon should address it, lets not be too rash. How many people have to tweak their $20K+ PJs in almost monthly, or how about every $3K+ DVD player out there that has inherent problems that are never addressed.

The MPEG decoder is just a bit too sensitive, therefore compression issues INHERENT IN THE DVD are shown more then some other players. This is why the best transfers don't show the same problems. If it was a hard fault, it would be there with every DVD you watched, and I can almost guarantee I have watched more DVDs with this player then almost anyone since I review them and watch about 2 a day on average EVERYDAY.

I don't see Denon changing the decoder and I have it on good authority that this isn't something that can be fixed with firmware. Like every other player out there it has a fault, but I don't see it any worse then most others have, and not nearly as bad as some others. I still stand by my position that this is one of the best DVD players I have seen to date overall, especially given its price point.
post #247 of 1111
ok now that i have spent time with this dvd player i must admit the macroblocking is very anoying. i didnt see at first but now i see it in1 out of every 4 discs i watch.
worse case was usaul suspects R2 version. when gabriel byrne first meets kobyoshi at the hotel the red walls all start blocking. the area that blocks goes green. its terrible and is not an acceptable fault.
also if the denon fast pans on a close up it macroblocks somthing terrible.
this is not in line with similiar priced decks. my toshiba 9500e displays none of these faults and plays a clean pic with the above said disc.
post #248 of 1111
"I still stand by my position that this is one of the best DVD players I have seen to date overall, especially given its price point."

I fear that the 3 second response time alone would be enough to drive me crazy if I had one in my system.

Add a cheap and crappy remote and the worst MP3 navigation menu ever designed and you don't really have a high end player by any standards.


Espen B
post #249 of 1111
Every DVD player has a fault, but if the macroblocking looks anything like what I´m seeing on my Pio 737, then it´s a very ugly looking fault. Certainly no better than bad deinterlacing?
post #250 of 1111
example of macrobloking attached, look on wall...ugly
LL
post #251 of 1111
and here, but not quite as bad, my other dvd player displays this as perfect red without the dirty patch
LL
post #252 of 1111
YUCK!, I couldn't live with that
post #253 of 1111
Quote:
Originally posted by esp1
the worst MP3 navigation menu ever designed and you don't really have a high end player by any standards.
MP3 navigation menus are now one of the criterion for a high end player? Talk about oxymoronic.

Chris
post #254 of 1111
Kris, didn't mean to be too harsh, it's just that I like Denon products and am disappointed that I have to find a way to get a look at this macroblocking and decide if it's a minor quirk I can live happily with, or if it will be too annoying to ignore. If this wasn't happening, I'd have bought one already. It's not so easy to see one particular DVD player in a retail environment and then find a disc that displays the macroblocking, so I rely on my past experience with Denon products and the reviews here by those more technical than myself. Thanks for staying with us in this thread. If you say this is one of the best DVD players you've seen that's good news. The audio features are very important to me as well, so I'll try to seek out a demo somehow. I probably won't buy a new player for 3-4 months, so I've got some time to figure out what my next best move is.
I've been very satisfied with my Sony 9000ES. The audio is just superb and the video (bugs and all) looks good on my Toshiba Widescreen RPTV. I've owned at least 10 DVD players and the Sony was the best all, around player for my uses a few years ago. I need to upgrade for many reasons (mainly audio capabilities) and hope the Denon will be all the player I'll need until HD-DVD is a reality.
post #255 of 1111
Martin

Just make sure whatever player you purchase has a remote that weighs at least 20lbs. or else you will be missing out on what the "high-end" has to offer. :)

Chris
post #256 of 1111
Chris, I bought the Home Theater Master MX-500 six months ago and still haven't set it up! :confused: It's figuring out the programming of little details like my Toshiba's aspect ratios that turned me off. Hopefully I'll get up the courage to give it another try soon.

Anyone know where to view the 5900 in NYC? I'll try to stop by the usual haunts, (Stereo Exchange, Sound by Singer, Harvey's) and see what's up soon.
post #257 of 1111
I hear ya Martin. I've been investigating universal remotes but haven't mustered the courage to really delve into the programming side.

If I still lived in NY I would have been happy to let you audition the 5900 in my home. I know you are not the hugest fan of DLP but I think you would be quite impressed with the 5900/s3 combo. Maybe you should instigate another NY shootout and get someone to bring their 5900 to Anthony's house. :)

Chris
post #258 of 1111
Great idea Chris. Just to be clear, I don't have enough experience with either DLP or LCos to have an informed opinion. I simply so admired the smoothness of the JVC G-150 that I wouldn't consider buying a pj in the 6-12k range that didn't do as well in that aspect, even if that means waiting, or using a less expensive "hold over" pj like the Sony HS20 for a year or two.

I'll see what Anthony's up to. I wonder if his Marantz has a DVI input? That would make viewing the 5900 very interesting, first an analogue out comparison with another DVD player and then an analogue vs. DVI out test.. I'm already ready!
post #259 of 1111
Gandley,
Is your display and 5900 properly calibrated? I just put in that disk in my 5900 on that scene and everything looks perfect. Mine is the region 1 disk though.

Dave
post #260 of 1111
Martin

Anthony does have DVI with the s2 so you should be able to do a nice analog/digital comparison. I think you will find the differences quite noticeable. While the component output is clean the 5900 via DVI is exceptional.

As for smoothness the HD2+ chip is definitely an improvement in that regard. It is tough to say how much of an improvement over previous designs but I have been as close as 1.5 screen widths away with no complaints.

Chris
post #261 of 1111
Quote:
Originally posted by Martin Butler
Chris, I bought the Home Theater Master MX-500 six months ago and still haven't set it up!
This killed me when I read it. Are you serious? If so, you must remedy this immediately. I got an MX-500 for x-mas and spent the better part of a day programming it. It took awhile only b/c I wanted everything to be set up juuuust right, so I planned out all my macros etc, and read through the OM, which granted, read like stereo instructions, but were really easy to use once I started doing the actual programming. I'll probably reconfigure some stuff, but wanted to start off on the right foot.

This remote has changed my life. Every time I use it, I'm a happier person. I've never had a good universal before and this is worth every penny- priceless, actually. I love it so much that I sometimes think I love it more than the equipment I control with it. I know this is off topic, but I couldn't let that comment go by. Tomorrow's Saturday- take the day and program it PLEASE.
post #262 of 1111
I keep reading this thread and maybe I'm blind but I have easily watched 100 disks with the 5900 and I think it's great. As I mentioned before my display was ISF calibrated the day I purchased the 5900 so maybe that is it but I can't understand the complaining. This is 2k player that is discounted. I had the Lexicon in my system and didn't like it nearly as well. I just think it is a great piece of equipment for the price.

Ken
post #263 of 1111
Ahart, thanks for the encouragement. I bought the MX-500 to experience exactly what you described and was disappointed. It's mainly that I really haven't had the time to dig into another poorly written manual, and take the half day needed to get the hang of it. It seemed to me that I wouldn't be able to program all of the buttons I need in order to use one remote like I wanted to. Thanks to your inspiration I'll try to give it another chance.

Ken, truly glad to hear that your experience with the 5900 is good. Your particular machine may not have the problems some members have encountered. I can't agree with your choice of the word "complaining" though. It seems to me that most of the posts have been communicative and forthright about understanding and identifying certain anomalies. Even Kris from Secrets has acknowledged the macroblocking problem. I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, but quite a few owners here have expressed their dissatisfaction with this even though a few feel it's no big deal.

I'm going to try and see this for myself before buying. The 5900 may not be at fault in the sense that it's displaying defects in the disc making process, but if a player is constantly too good for some discs, there are only two solutions. Fix the disc production process or tweak the player. Hopefully the macroblocking is seen rarely, but I'd be displeased if even three or four of my favorite discs displayed this problem, but could live with it. If it was 10-15 discs, I'd consider it a defect. I'm still looking forward to trying one since I really need a multi format player for my work. I too felt that the 5900 could be a great piece of equipment, but am concerned about the macroblocking issue and hope it's not a deal breaker for me as I've owned quite a few Denon products and have come to expect a lot from them. That said I can say one pattern I've noticed in Denon design is that a great feature may sometimes be eliminated in a new model. Example, I had a Denon 3200 receiver with a little sliver of a plug in radio antennae. It got the strongest, clearest signal I've ever heard in any NYC apartment I've lived in. I traded up to the 5700 receiver and to my surprise found the typical antennae inputs. Frankly, they really sucked, reception was terrible and I was never as happy with the 5700 as I could have been. Also, there's a history of some Denon products having been released with some real defects and you know the saying "once bitten, twice shy". That's where I'm coming from. Unless someone comes out with a clearly superior player that does all the 5900 does in 3-4 months, I'll probably give it a try, but wish I didn't have to cross my fingers when I do.
post #264 of 1111
I could live with the macroblocking, I did not like the subtitles popping up at odd random times, and the really SLOW menu and chapter selections.

I also was still seeing some layer changes.

I'm still looking around. If I'm gonna pay $2K then I expect it to be the best of everything, or really close :D
post #265 of 1111
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Cain
I could live with the macroblocking, I did not like the subtitles popping up at odd random times, and the really SLOW menu and chapter selections.

I also was still seeing some layer changes.

I'm still looking around. If I'm gonna pay $2K then I expect it to be the best of everything, or really close :D
I agree the menus are really slow. I still have yet to have a single subtitle pop up though and I have watched A TON of DVDs on this thing with my reviews.

I have seen about 3-5 layer changes but I don't recall the titles.

The macroblocking is a product of the player's MPEG decoder, there is no doubt about that, but it is somewhat the fault of the DVDs as well. This decoder is a really low end decoder and I am a bit surprised Denon went with it. Hopefully they'll move on to a better one in their future offerings. The sensitivity to badly mastered DVDs is just too high so you get rounding errors that cause the issues.

As I said before you can tweak most of it out by using the AVIA window pattern at 20 or 30 IRE and adjusting the players "black level" control in the picture adjustment menu. After you do this make sure you reset your contrast and brightness settings on your monitor as they will have changed.
post #266 of 1111
Kris,
That is what surprises me so much about this player. I own it and like it, but am a little upset at Denon. As you say, they use a cheap MPEG decoder in a MSRP $2000 DVD player. That is like buying a Mercedes and finding out you have a Yugo transmission in it. Denon should be ashamed of themselves for using an inferior part in a "premium" product offering.

Dave
post #267 of 1111
they should offer an upgrade option to change the decoder, hell i would pay for it if it meant getting rid of the blocking.

that amazes me though. i spent a whole bunch off money for a inferior decoder, an i-link output that dosent work properly...........now i remember y i dont normaly buy denon..

whats realy annouying is at times this thing is gobsmacking. the pic can be truly awesome. what an oversight by denon, like we wouldnt notice.
post #268 of 1111
Kris, thanks for being so frank regarding the 5900. Do you think Denon took the easy way out to eliminate the chroma bug by using this decoder? Myself, I think I'd rather have a chroma error than macroblocking, but then I'm using a widescreen HDTV and not a projector which might make a chroma bug intolerable. Is there multi format player available ( or soon to be) you know of that doesn't have errors such as this? What's up with the newest Pioneer? They used to be tops, but seem to have lost the cache` they once enjoyed.
post #269 of 1111
Quote:
The macroblocking is a product of the player's MPEG decoder, there is no doubt about that, but it is somewhat the fault of the DVDs as well. This decoder is a really low end decoder and I am a bit surprised Denon went with it.
It's interesting that Denon also used an ESS decoder in the 3800, a player that has none of the macroblocking issues some people are seeing in the 5900. Could it just be a matter of implementation? If so, is a fix is possible via a firmware update? Jeff Talmadge has been aware of this reported problem for a while now but so far there's been no info forthcoming from Denon.
post #270 of 1111
Quote:
I agree the menus are really slow. I still have yet to have a single subtitle pop up though and I have watched A TON of DVDs on this thing with my reviews.
Kris, Have you watched 'Amadeus'? I watched that last night with unwanted sub-titles!
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