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Denon 5900 macroblocking favor - Page 2  

post #31 of 1111
dr1394,

If it´s in the source then I wonder why Geof didn´t notice it with a Denon 910?

I only noticed this artifact on my CRT TV in progressive scan mode(but I didn´t do any major checking).
post #32 of 1111
I have the macroblocking on my 5900. August 2003 mfg date.

I'll be returning my unit. It really is a shame to see problems on a DVD player that costs so much money.

-- Cain
post #33 of 1111
I only had this problem on 2 discs out of 50 I have watched since getting the 5900. Considering the exceptional video and equally impressive audio playback on SACD, DVD-Audio, and redbook. I will be keeping my 5900 in that their is no other unit that comes close to what it can do. I believe it's a small compromise that I'm sure denon will fix with an update anyway.

Ron
post #34 of 1111
Hey Cain,

Isn't that 'jumping the gun' a bit? From what dr1394 is saying, those artefacts are ALREADY on the source disc. What I think the -5900 is doing (in conjunction with your particular display), is simply showing-up detail that's already there on a poorly-authored DVD!

Other players might not show it up because they have less color-differentiation than the -5900.

I've seen exactly the same blockiness on some color transitions when manipulating JPEGs -- depending on whether I'm using my crap monitor at work, or using my good one at home. A cheap monitor just tends to mask those details.

And did you know that "soft focussed" portraits make people look more attractive because they blur over your zits? :-)
post #35 of 1111
Anyway Cain (and others here), why don't you just wait and hear what DenonJeff has to say. He's already relayed the info to Japan who are looking into these "claims". I've spoken with him about this. He's reading this thread.

Anyway, the Denon products are usually fully-configurable through firmware updates. I am sure it is just a contrast/calibration issue.

What I have noticed with the -5900 is that the picture is "razor sharp" compared with my previous -3800 -- which is just what I wanted. It shows-up everything -- "warts and all".
post #36 of 1111
>>>I wonder why Geof didn´t notice it with a Denon 910?<<<

Possibly a binoculars vs telescope issue?
:-)
post #37 of 1111
Thread Starter 
I have only seen the issue on the Sinbad and Unbreakable discs. This makes me think based on the images above and the test performed that the problems may be the discs. Otherwise it would be pretty consistent throughout your playback. I'll relay this info to Jeff about the Sinbad problem.
post #38 of 1111
Ron, would you care to examine the Video Essentials disk (I noted the title and chapter numbers above) to see if this has encoding problems?

Just to clarify, I did not watch Sinbad or Unbreakables. I noted the problem on Star Trek Insurrection. The opening scenes in the SB version of Air Force One also looked rough compared to my PMDT.

Personally I would rate the PQ of the PMDT/PVP slightly better than the 5900. Since I did not see the ST:I, SB AFO, or VE problems on the PMDT I choose to return the 5900. YMMV.
post #39 of 1111
Ron makes a good point about NR. Ron, is there any BTB in the scenes above? Can you lower the quality of the iDCT in your decoder? See if it makes the artifacts stand out more.

Kris, does the 5900 pass BTB?
post #40 of 1111
Definitely sounds like compression/encoding related issues on discs. If you'll harken back to the early dvd reviews of Unbreakable there were numerous complaints of compression problems across a wide range range of setups. Scary to think that the 5900 is able to reproduce such things...good or bad? Hmm :)
post #41 of 1111
I'm not angry or upset, just disappointed.

I'm seeing macroblocking on more than one disc, and if this player cost 300.00 I'd hang on to it, but I believe over the next six months there will be other players coming out with video as good as the 5900, without the extra artifacts many are seeing; and most of them will be less expensive.

I only care about video quality, nothing else.

-- Cain
post #42 of 1111
Thread Starter 
Stacey

The player passes BTB. In fact, it does it both when set for 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE. I will mess around with some of the noise reduction settings on the player. It also has individual settings for brightness, black level? (on top of the IRE setting) and gamma. For noise reduction it has a few options including mosquito and block NR. I'll mess around tonight and see what I can come up with.

But this really sounds like a problem that lies in the DVD encoding, not the player. Again the Sinbad disc was the only bad disc I had seen to this point and Ron cleared that up. Unbreakable has noticeable artifacts, but they could easily be compression issues as well. It isn't even as bad as Enigma looked on the RP-82.
post #43 of 1111
Thread Starter 
Well I am giving up on this macroblocking issue. I have looked through too many of my DVDs searching for a problem and I am convinced this is a compression issue. The reason many of you may now be noticing this problem and not before is your previous player may have been clipping black information or your setup wasn't correct. I hate to lay blame but way too many times have I seen people swear that a transfer looked terrific only to find a bunch of issues with it.

Take for example Shallow Hal or the new release of Aliens. Both of these titles had severe compression problems and many reviewers didn't even notice them. Without setting up the display myself I just can't be sure. This may sound elitist but you wouldn't believe how many times this has been the case in my experience.

The Denon puts out an extraordinary image with good DVDs, and puts out the expected image with bad ones. I have done all the benchmark tests and the only issue I have really found with it is the pixel cropping on the right side of the image is 5 pixels which is a bit excessive. Denon is aware and I wouldn't be surprised to get a fix.

I have exhausted this problem enough to reasonably conclude that it is a DVD problem and not the player. If it was indeed the player it should be repeatable regardless of the DVD put into it, as it is not a scaling issue or de-interlacing issue.
post #44 of 1111
The VE issue certainly is not related to black level because it happens on various grey patches. It may be a disk problem but it is curious that it does not happen on other players.
post #45 of 1111
>> The VE issue certainly is not related to black level because it happens on various grey patches. <<

Well that could just be down to a one-level difference in the grey scale -- just as it was with the black.


>> It may be a disk problem but it is curious that it does not happen on other players.<<

Maybe other players just ain't as resolving as the -5900.
post #46 of 1111
I agree with Kris. I belive it is the format which still isnt perfect. you would think after all these years they could make a disk right for once. a good example is disney seems to always make some players screw up. If hd dvd ever does get here they better do it right.
post #47 of 1111
I'm wondering, since people are reporting this more with the DLP, whether the issue is somehow related to the dithering factor in some DLP implementations.

Perhaps that difference of 1 in brightness for those areas is triggering them into two different dither colors that are perceptually more than 1 apart, making them visible. Perhaps other players aren't weren't so exact and it all blended into being the same thing, or the component inputs do some smoothing. Just an idea.
post #48 of 1111
"........the dithering factor in some DLP implementations.

Perhaps that difference of 1 in brightness for those areas is triggering them into two different dither colors that are perceptually more than 1 apart, making them visible.........."

st_nick,

Interesting point you bring up!

Are any of you CRT-based display owners seeing this macroblocking coming from a 5900?
post #49 of 1111
Has anyone seen any problems with LoTR:TTT EE with the 5900? I've seen subtitles pop up during a couple of scenes and in one case I could see the screen blanking area appear as well.

As far as Sinbad is concerned, I have seen a problem which may not be the macroblocking issue that has been discussed. In one scene a portion of the image broke up into moving coloured tiles for a moment which occupied half of Sinbad's vest. Does this sound like a related issue? It does not look like the jpegs previously posted. I went back to the same scenes and could not recreate the problem but on subsequent viewings it has happened again.

If this is a bad player I would like to return it asap.
post #50 of 1111
I can usually solve the color tile problem with a good cleaning of the disc. If there are scratches present (especially the ones that follow the arc of the disc) then scratch removal can work.

Trevor :)
post #51 of 1111
Thread Starter 
I watched the Two Towers EE awhile back on this player with absolutely no problems at all.
post #52 of 1111
Quote:
have done all the benchmark tests and the only issue I have really found with it is the pixel cropping on the right side of the image is 5 pixels which is a bit excessive. Denon is aware and I wouldn't be surprised to get a fix.
Kris what about the slow loading menu problem which I believe you may have brought up when you had the prototype and people whom now have the production 5900 are bringing up to? Is this fixable as well via firmware?
post #53 of 1111
I also played LOTR:TTT EE on the 5900 with no problem at all. It very well may be the best looking DVD I have seen so far, very 3D like and razor sharp. I highly recommend it.

Ron
post #54 of 1111
Thread Starter 
The slow navigation issue will be brought up in the benchmark and I have told Denon about it. I don't know if it is fixable though, may just end up being an inconvenience, but definately not one I would make or break my decision to pick it up for.
post #55 of 1111
I have checked the discs in question thoroughly and they appear to be fine. If I play the same discs back on my old Sony 7700 there are no problems.

To add to the problem, I just tried X2 and saw some pausing toward the end of the movie (well after any layer change). My guess at this point is a possible transport problem so I will request a replacement 5900.

Any other suggestions?
post #56 of 1111
I'm wondering whether the brief-subtitle problem is related to how Denon implements the DVD standard. I have an 1805 that I use for discs that my D1 doesn't like, and my friend has a 900, and before reading AVS those were the only 2 players I'd ever seen that had that issue. It's not a big deal since it clears in a second or two, always in the same place even from player to player. I wonder if the player(s) are picking up a bug on the disc, or if a bug in the player.
post #57 of 1111
From all I've read here, it sure sounds like there's multiple issues interpreted as one issue. The issues could be:

- 5900 brings out details other players don't.

- 5900 more sensitive to dirty/scratched discs than other players.

- Display issues (interpolation on discrete displays or bad setup).

- Bad DVD mastering.

- Any combination of the above.
post #58 of 1111
Hi, AV Avatar

I don't know what you specifically mean by "checked thoroughly and they appear to be fine", but unless your eyes happen to have the same optical characteristics as the 5900, I presume you're not counting on them to make the determination. Since the 7700 optics are not the same as the 5900 optics, I wouldn't expect that to be a definitive test either. Try cleaning the disc, it works or it doesn't. If it doesn't, you can always exchange the player. :)
post #59 of 1111
Hi TrevorS,

Just for giggles I did try cleaning the discs in question again with no improvement. This is part of my usual regime of checking problem discs which includes a visual inspection for obvious problems, verifying file access on my dvd drive in my pc, trying my "it almost always is incompatible" Sony 7700, exchanging for a new copy, trying the offending disc on a friend's player and any other voodoo I can come up with to satisfy the DVD gods. In this case I have tried all of the above to no avail. The only thing I have not tried is checking another 5900 - they are in short supply where I live.

I have seen comments in the past of some players popping up subtitles at random intervals (mostly Toshibas if I remember correctly). This however seems a little more pronounced as this is the first time I have seen the blanking interval portion at the bottom of the screen show up at the same time. It also does not explain the slight pausing and tiling as well.

I'm hoping this is just a bad sample. Unless anyone else has suggestions?
post #60 of 1111
I've been monitoring this thread waiting for the dust to clear.
AV Avatar. What are the timestamps for these unexpected subtitles ? I think it may be a standard part of the movie.
Also, what's a "screen blanking area" ?
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