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HD LEEZA - new firmware - Page 3  

post #61 of 430
12/11/03 at 7:01am
As someone who demonstrated the unit to the 'masses', the interest on where to use it was across the board but by FAR the biggest interest was from CRT users or potential CRT users. If they then want to go fully digital 'later' then the scaler is still competitve but most were looking at 8/9 inch units and the HD Leeza. Outside of Cedia (which only really represents the new) does anyone know of a bigger 'test' of this product against an audience?

I emailed details to KD and asked about PAL issues shortly after the event. They did not reply, something I found mildly disappointing having just take 4 days off work to demonstrate their product for them :(

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post #62 of 430
12/11/03 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_H
Yes, of course, Ofer. It takes the horizontal frequency of whichever initial resolution is selected and scales to 1440x960 within it... ie if you start with 1060 vertical lines, you end up with 960 scaled into 1060 lines...

Totally non-optimal as it drives the projector harder than required and has the possibility of introducing non-integer scaling artefacts.

A true 1440x960 resolution is the only acceptable solution and we've been asking for it since day one...

See what you did, you made me answer ;)

Mark.
Dear Mark

You are making to many assumptions, we need clear answers. Did you try it, yes or no? Whats exactly happens when you do that? We can than try to duplicate the problem. Otherwise it becomes a wild goose chase.
Thank you
post #63 of 430
12/11/03 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon Fraser
Key Digital have had LONG document from me several months ago listing all the issues we have with the HDL including the PAL ones. I sent a PAL test disc months ago along with video content disc (Insurrection R2 just to show simple 2:2) and left another with video content showing a simple example of poor de-interlacing in Sept at CEDIA. It is not for my want of trying to show and point out the issues that they are not being fixed.

I will send it again when I have time in the hope that these issues might finally be resolved.

Gordon
Hi Gordon

You are correct, Mike has received the disc from you. Mike just finished the firmware 5.5.55 and currently trying to take all your suggestions for PAL and integrate inot HD Hanna & Pioneer card first to see how it will effect perfomance on PAL. Than we can make a decision on HD Leeza in PAL world.
Thank you
post #64 of 430
12/11/03 at 10:01am
Quote:
Originally posted by michaellucky
Dear Mark

You are making to many assumptions, we need clear answers.
Did you try it, yes or no? Whats exactly happens when you do that? We can than try to duplicate the problem. Otherwise it becomes a wild goose chase.
Thank you
Michael, if I believed you were genuinely interested I would, *yet again*, spell out the problems...

Mark.
post #65 of 430
12/11/03 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally posted by michaellucky
Mike just finished the firmware 5.5.55 and currently trying to take all your suggestions for PAL and integrate inot HD Hanna & Pioneer card first to see how it will effect perfomance on PAL. Than we can make a decision on HD Leeza in PAL world.
Anyone else find this a depressing statement?:( is the Pioneer card on the market? how long has the HD Leeza been out now?

Please just fix it, if you can't please just say so.
post #66 of 430
12/11/03 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_H
Michael, if I believed you were genuinely interested I would, *yet again*, spell out the problems...

Mark.
Surely they're on Gordon's list anyway?:confused:
post #67 of 430
12/11/03 at 12:40pm
Thread Starter 
Michael,

I believe CRT users want to hit the sweetspot for their system, which is 1440x960p @ 48Hz and 72Hz.

The second sweetspot for CRT users in PAL is 1536 x 1152p @ 50Hz and 75Hz.

Regarding DVI at 50Hz, I'm not sure that this would be supported by any device. I've been trying 50Hz on a few devices and most won't sync at RGBHV (not for progressive sources). It simply might not be usable.
post #68 of 430
12/11/03 at 1:13pm
You gotta have good 72Hz support at every supported resolution, or the CRT world (which is probably the bulk of the market for this product for a while yet, dontcha think?) just won't be interested. 72Hz just seems to be an absolute requirement for maximum quality film based content without the herky jerkies.
post #69 of 430
12/11/03 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally posted by GoodMudge
Surely they're on Gordon's list anyway?:confused:
Precisely.

Mark
post #70 of 430
12/11/03 at 3:16pm
Quote:
Originally posted by michaellucky
Hi Gordon

You are correct, Mike has received the disc from you. Mike just finished the firmware 5.5.55 and currently trying to take all your suggestions for PAL and integrate inot HD Hanna & Pioneer card first to see how it will effect perfomance on PAL. Than we can make a decision on HD Leeza in PAL world.
Thank you
Thanks very much - I've been deliberating for a while whether to buy a Lumagen Pro or a HD Leeza, and you've just made my decision for me - Lumagen here I come.
post #71 of 430
12/11/03 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally posted by michaellucky
Dear EB

The firmware was released this morning. 5.5.55

We will also add to our website in the afternoon.

ATTENTION: If you currently have an HD Leeza and are not getting firmware upgrades directly from KDS, please mailto:mike@keydigital.com
your name and info and we will add you to new upgrades as they come out.
Thank you
Michael, thanks. I will download the latest firmware and add my name to the distribution list for regular updates. Another question, I am looking over the "short user guide" that lists the suggested resolutions for various displays - it cites "user experience" as the source. Any sense on how broad this experience base is? Or should I ignore it and try my own stuff? The reason I ask is because the resolution suggested for my display (KDF-70XBR950) differs from Sony's purported native res. Thanks again.

EB
post #72 of 430
12/12/03 at 11:51am
[quote]Originally posted by oferlaor
[b]Michael,

I believe CRT users want to hit the sweetspot for their system, which is 1440x960p @ 48Hz and 72Hz.



Hi Ofer

Form manufacturing point of view, we need a SOLID reason to have 48hz/72hz vs 60hz. How many users out there will have 100% film material ALL the time in order to have benefit of 48/72hz? Since MOST/ALL sources have video in them, 48/72 theory does not work. This is why we RECOMMEND 60hz as most sources have video and film in them, even when they do cuts, edits, paste, etc...... and they will be visible on 48/72 but will not be visible on 60hz.

As far as 1440x960, okay you got it. Its in the pipeline for 1st to 2nd qtr of 2004.
Thank you
post #73 of 430
12/12/03 at 11:57am
Quote:
Originally posted by ebrigham
Michael, thanks. I will download the latest firmware and add my name to the distribution list for regular updates. Another question, I am looking over the "short user guide" that lists the suggested resolutions for various displays - it cites "user experience" as the source. Any sense on how broad this experience base is? Or should I ignore it and try my own stuff? The reason I ask is because the resolution suggested for my display (KDF-70XBR950) differs from Sony's purported native res. Thanks again.

EB
Dear EB

You do not need a lot of experience, you definately try it.
Thank you

Dear Members

KDS is now getting ready for CES, so lots of things to work on.

As always it was nice sharing our future thoughts with you, and it was nice to hear that MOST of you are happy with the product. If you have further questions, suggestions, etc....... please mailto:micahel@keydigital.com as I will not be posting here for a while.

On behalf of KDS we wish you Happy Holiday and Happy New Year.
Thank you
post #74 of 430
12/12/03 at 12:27pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Michael!

I understand the reasoning behind the 3/3 pulldown thing. If someone wants to expand on this, I'd love to chat more on the subject.

If people prefer, I can open a separate thread for 48Hz/72Hz/75Hz, as this subject is peaking my interest.
post #75 of 430
12/12/03 at 12:29pm
Thanks again, Michael.
post #76 of 430
12/12/03 at 2:55pm
Anyone understand why default for V and H offsets in the version are 127 and 255?
post #77 of 430
12/13/03 at 1:05am
Quote:
Originally posted by michaellucky
Form manufacturing point of view, we need a SOLID reason to have 48hz/72hz vs 60hz.
One reason is that it sets your product apart from your competitors and gains you sales from people that are looking for this feature.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, is that you originally advertised the HDL as supporting this refresh rate, and delivered a partly working solution, so Key must have thought it was desirable at some stage...

Quote:

How many users out there will have 100% film material ALL the time in order to have benefit of 48/72hz? Since MOST/ALL sources have video in them, 48/72 theory does not work. This is why we RECOMMEND 60hz as most sources have video and film in them, even when they do cuts, edits, paste, etc...... and they will be visible on 48/72 but will not be visible on 60hz.
Surely that's a decision for the user to make?

Quote:

As far as 1440x960, okay you got it. Its in the pipeline for 1st to 2nd qtr of 2004.
Thank you
Thanks for listening; keep it up! :D

Mark.
post #78 of 430
12/13/03 at 5:44am
Quote:
Mark_H quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by michaellucky
Form manufacturing point of view, we need a SOLID reason to have 48hz/72hz vs 60hz.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Pioneer 503CMX does an extremeley poor job showing film sources at 60HZ when running native rate. Since your company is making a PIO card, you should well understand that. Tearing is very unpleasant.

The panel needs 3/3 pullup at 72Hz to work well with this scaler. There is not much point to buying a HD-Leeza to scale to 720P is there?

The new Pioneers do 3/3 pullup and 72Hz. It would be a step down for them to use an HDL I guess.

Not sure if these are solid reasons or not.

-- Rich
post #79 of 430
12/13/03 at 5:58am
Quote:
Originally posted by RichB
The Pioneer 503CMX does an extremeley poor job showing film sources at 60HZ when running native rate. Since your company is making a PIO card, you should well understand that. Tearing is very unpleasant.

The panel needs 3/3 pullup at 72Hz to work well with this scaler. There is not much point to buying a HD-Leeza to scale to 720P is there?

The new Pioneers do 3/3 pullup and 72Hz. It would be a step down for them to use an HDL I guess.

Not sure if these are solid reasons or not.

-- Rich
Rich, for some reason the HDL seems to tear less on the 503cmx at 60hz than did the digital Leeza. I can't figure out why. Still happens occassionally, but for the most part it's pretty smooth.

Having said that, I agree with you that 72hz should work and I'm guessing that for 503cmx users it would be an improvement.
post #80 of 430
12/13/03 at 11:23am
Thread Starter 
Alan,

Sounds like a timing issue.
post #81 of 430
12/13/03 at 11:37am
Quote:
Form manufacturing point of view, we need a SOLID reason to have 48hz/72hz vs 60hz. How many users out there will have 100% film material ALL the time in order to have benefit of 48/72hz? Since MOST/ALL sources have video in them, 48/72 theory does not work
Well, there are a couple of answers to that. One is that most feature films, the most important material for most of us, are 24fps content, and we want to optimize for the most important content. The other is that those of us wtih CRT systems can support both and want to have access to both as required.

That's really one of the reasons for springing for an expensive CRT FP system, that you can have the best of both worlds. If I'm watching HD-Video based material on HDNet, I want to select 60Hz output and that will cause my CRT to switch to the appropriate memory for that signal. If I'm watching DVD film or HD film material with pulldown in it, I want to select 72Hz and my CRT will switch to the appropriate memory for that signal.

I think that this will always be a requirement on the high end, and anyone selling $4K scalers is kind of talking to the high end, not because it's super expensive but any external scaler is still kind of relegated to the high end, and those people are spending the bucks to get the maximum quality and flexibility.
post #82 of 430
12/13/03 at 12:53pm
I am waiting for PAL solution from KD for a long time and last post from michaellucky made my decission
On monday I am going to order Lumagen pro SDI

Everyone with little bit of common human sense should know now how much they care about oversees market. (typical LOCAL american company...sad sad sad) Thanks for saving me money.

Pedro
post #83 of 430
12/13/03 at 5:12pm
dean --- excellent points! well said.

pedro --- have a coke and a smile! ;)

doody.
post #84 of 430
12/13/03 at 6:36pm
Pedro,
When I saw the Leeza against the Vision Pro SDI - there was not too great a difference between PAL - the Vision was better, but not by a great deal. On NTSC with a 3:2 cadence, the KDS deinterlacing and scaling was superior to the Lumagen - this is with SDI feeds from a CUE free Panasonic.
BTW the PAL material was the non-anamorphic R2 of Titanic - a deinterlacing and scaling nightmare in many places.
post #85 of 430
12/14/03 at 1:58am
Thread Starter 
Dean,

I think what Michael is saying is that locking on to cadence detection and maintaining 48Hz at all costs is a problematic venture.

We've discussed this issue before, but I'm not sure if we reached any conclusions.

Essentially, almost no film source is a pure 24fps source. You almost always have bad editing and similar issues causing a loss of cadence lock. As long as the source is a pure 24fps source, I believe the HD LEEZA has no issues even today.

The problem is that as soon as you hit a section with bad editing (I've been using a hidden feature in the Vision Pro to see if this happens often and it happens more than I ever thought possible), you have a serious problem. I'm not sure how you can squeeze in a 60Hz source into 48Hz. You would obviously get a lot of judder.

Now, this is where the HD LEEZA has a problem today. I believe it doesn't quite recover right after it hits a section with video deinterlacing. It may not be able to lock back onto the cadence sequence and continue normally, or it may simply take it a while to lock back onto the cadence sequence. I'm not really sure what it does at this point, but the questions are:

1. Would a stronger cadence detection sequence immediately following the loss of cadence lock fix the issues people are discussing here?

2. There is no way to display video without judder using 48hz output. Would that be a problem for people?

3. There will always be judder during cadence lock loss. Is that a problem?

I believe that if we localize our requirements, in a way that would be acceptable to both KDS and the CRT community, the issue might be resolved.

Let me know your thoughts on this.
post #86 of 430
12/14/03 at 11:40am
I guess the answer to that is that these bad edits have been out there since DVD's began, and many of us have been using 72Hz refresh all this time, via numerous scalers and HTPCs, including KD's own Digital Leeza, right?
post #87 of 430
12/14/03 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally posted by oferlaor
1. Would a stronger cadence detection sequence immediately following the loss of cadence lock fix the issues people are discussing here?
The problem seems to be that there is actually *no* cadence detection at present; you select 48Hz and if you're lucky you're in-step until cadence next breaks... if not, or when it does break, you just keep reselecting 48Hz until you fall back into step... and then repeat as needed...

So, a working cadence detection would probably solve the issues we currently see with 48/72Hz modes.

As Dean points out, it's already being done in other products so it *is* doable.

As for video mode stutter, I would happily live with that on DVD menus, but for video DVDs, I would set up a 60Hz memory block on my projector and then switch the HDL to 60Hz mode.

Mark.
post #88 of 430
12/15/03 at 3:53am
Off the topic but has anyone got their 12 V trigger to work??

I tried to use mine last night and used the remote as well as the menu commands. No go.

I plugged in my trigger to therear '12 V' input. There is an additional plug for 'additional remote' . Would that be the place to plug into?

Anyone use this feature???

Thanks!
post #89 of 430
12/15/03 at 6:47am
Thread Starter 
it's supposed to go through the 12V plug.

Did you try to check for resistance? It's possible it doesn't pass 12V, but only shorts the two connections on that plug.

A simple test with a DVM can be used to check this.
post #90 of 430
12/17/03 at 5:11am
Folks, I just got half of my HD Leeza set up last night. I won't get the Panny until today or tomorrow, but I was able to upload the latest firmware and experiment with a "spare" plasma (until my new main screen shows up) using SDTV and HDTV. Hopefully I will be able to experiment with DVD before the weekend.

The discreet inputs are a great addition and the new GB reset options made life a little easier. Has anyone been able to get the "test pattern" menu to work? I can't seem to select mine. Am I missing something?
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