LG LST-3410A Review and Discussion - Page 229

Fred: Has it helped stability?

Is your cooling running during unit turned off too?

Richard

Richard,

Continuing to test. Fan is on 24/7. So far, no improvement. Have partial listings, but locked up today on first turn on in 4 days. Chip temperature for all chips on TVGOS board is <80 F.

This is somewhat of a desperation test, 'cause I think Jan's data on buffer overflow is correct. As I indicated, the TVGOS chips were never more than warm, unit on or off.

OK, Folks. I give up and defer to Jan.

No changes of any kind in performance. Still won't come up with a full set of listings, and still locks up every now and then.

I pulled the fan, put it back together and will reset it when necessary.

Was worth a try...

You don't know how much I was rooting for your experiment to be successful.....

Jan,

I was too. I gave it a fair chance. All I can say is you were right.

albertso,

I bought one of the first units made. I own 3 and run them 3 hours a night. Heat is not an issue when they are not stacked. I use these on a high end projection system. They provide the best picture of any of my 8 input sources including my BluRay and HDDVD players. Whoever designed the digital DVI video outputs should have gotten a prize.

Art,

I certainly agree about the picture quality. It is the best.

Too bad the TVGOS ruined the package. Jan has the right idea, I guess. Just kill it.

I wonder if anyone has reverse engineered the hardware or software in this thing.

There is no reason to do that. There are Motorola boxes out there that work beautifully albeit with cable material.

This has to be one of the longer threads in AVS Forum history. That said, I thought I'd drop by and say hello.

Also, please remember that upon power-up, if the LST-3410A does not receive all of the information it seeks from the hard drive (such as how many programs are stored), some of the symptoms I've seen over the last two pages can occur.

Best thing to do is to make sure if you are having any problems that you delete (or transfer to DVHS) enough programs to reduce the start-up time when performing timer recordings. How many programs is that? For me, I never keep more than 39 programs on the hard drive. After that, the box becomes flaky (or became, since I'm not actively using it right now). The LST-3410A really does do some strange initialization things and some of those involve the hard drive.

As for TVGOS, I have a DTVPal (don't know if it is the right rev) and one day when I get through all the other projects I'll see if I can use it for OTA recording again. TVGOS should really get a high spot in the "Top 10 Inventions that were really implemented wrong".

Too bad there aren't any other IEEE-1394 boxes out there for OTA (other than my computer, of course).

Hi alk,

This thread is becoming a cult classic as will the machines some day.

Hi alk,

Just info. All of my malfunctions - lock-ups, etc. - happen with nothing recorded to the HD.

TVGOS, as you noted, is the bad guy. I get good packets from the local CBS Cable station, and have from he same station OTA, via a DTVPal, but the result is the same- random lock-ups and missing guide data.

Art, cult classic?? That implies progress to another device. I don't see one, except the Cable Box DVR's.

albertso is right... an empty, just initialized hard drive will be as succeptable for lockup as a nearly full one...
Remember me 'experimenting' with one unit? I tried valiantly to find a way to restart TVG board only..... (Without issueing a reset to the rest of the main board) only to discover that a reset of TVG didn't run any program at all.... Program was corrupt. Only a reload of TVG program, which I believe is stored in another chip, on the motherboard.... and getting that to happen only occurred during the Main Reset, (Which appeared to erase the TVG data) ------ More on this later...

I did scope an odd reset line to TVG board, and I saw a re-occuring pulse that might have been vertical video sync or 60Hz in nature... That was the reason why just holding a low or high to that line didn't work....

I never fully proved this, but, the reset line for TVG is just one in a stream of resets, and I believe that the chip that resides in that IC socket, downloads data to 2 or 3 portions of the motherboard during the power up reset.... feeding power up data to various parts of the board... and it is probably this reason why there are so few lockups of one area or another... By that, I mean the MPEG Processor, Main Processor, Disk Processor, TVG Processor (when it's not being over-written by TVG data, that is ! ).

Once in a great while during my TVG Reset 'experiments' I got things really hosed up...
and looking back on it, I probably did get TVG board to reset, but then it was 'out of sync' with the reset of the sub-systems, and the main bootup proceedure, downloading data to the various parts of the main board, keeps it in sync with one-another...

It was another experiment that failed....

More in depth surmising of the TVG data over-write problem that I never posted before:

As TVG Data is received and decoded, Data is stored in the TVG memory, and (I'm Guessing) a new checksum for this data is also stored... If you power off and on again.... During power up the checksum is calculated from the memory, and compared with stored Checksum... If checksum compares, Stored data is Kept, and made available for the user..

HOWEVER: If Data over-writes TVG memory and into TVG OS.... either a new checksum is written, or-more likely: System locks up because it's over-written, and old checksum remains...
Either way.... The Checksum calculated from the 'normal' TVG Data area, (From the freshly installed TVG program), DOES NOT match checksum that is stored...
Therefore, TVG program does what it is programmed to do when the checksum doesn't match: TVG erases TVG Data so as to start over--Fresh...
And you then staring at NO TVG Data!!!

Sound Familiar???



If I'm right on this.... (And I might not be....) This would make reverse engineering this box a real nightmare.... and reason why I defaulted to removing the TVG capacitor!!!!

Cooling update

I don't recieve any data, that is crashing most other 3410s, that recieve the corrupt tvgos buffer overload data.

My unit was getting hot when on over 2-6 hours and crashing tvgos menu 3-6 times a week.

Summary is that 3410s users should watch units for dust & air flow, add leg extensions and keep it in a well vented cool area. (a, wall wort, case fan fixed my problem)

Mine hasen't crashed once since 8-11-10, so I fixed (my) tvgos chips over heating problem, not the corrupt tvgos data problem, but overheating may enhance/increase tvgos crashes.

Thanks: Fred & Jan for your help and input

There is no doubt that overheating a 3410A will destroy it. However, the TVGOS issue is the reason that we have 99% of the crashes. I think we have proven this over the years. Please do not put out misleading information. The truth is that if you disable TVGOS, the HDPVR works perfectly as long as you allow for sufficient ventilation.

Think that's just what I said:

1. I don't recieve any data, that is crashing MOST other 3410s, that recieve the corrupt tvgos data.

2. users should watch units for dust & air flow, add leg extensions and keep it in a well vented cool area

3. overheating MAY enhance/increase tvgos crashes

Sorry, if this is misleading, guess I didn't state my thoughts right or I'm wrong.

(Overheating was constantly crashing my TVGOS), while unit is on/running, due to hot chips. - Not now! No, 2 second reboots every other day.

--------------------

PS: If you block the TVGOS analog broadcast channel and/or unplug your converter boxes analog broadcast or don't recieve TVGOS data, you won't get bad data or have to remove the TVGOS cap.

I didn't disable TVGOS /pull cap, so I can plug & turn converter box on/off for 2 minutes, when clock looses 120v house power, or it looses a few minutes over months, this saves me hours of reprograming record schedual, as it's the only way to reset clock without removing all schedualed recordings, unless someone knows of a work around for this clock reset problem.

I am reporting performance of 3 units. None have had any internal work done except for replacement of OE HD with a 300 GB drive. All 3 3410A's became unusable as long as TVGOS data was available. As soon as TVGOS became unavailable all 3 machines that had become doorstops, began working perfectly absent Guide data. Now, I have 3 marvelous HDDVR's without guide data. I use the guide data from my Motorola/Comcast HDDVR's to program the 3 LG's. I never miss a recording now.

For a point of reference:

I have 4 machines....
1 has a 330Gb Quickview drive
1 has a 250Gb Computer drive, not Quickview drive.
2 have stock 120Gb drives

All 4 have had power supplies upgraded
2 of 4 have had the Reset cap replaced
All 4 have TVG cap removed (one on a switch to turn on and off---Presently OFF)
All 4 have rubber feet attached to LG rubber feet to increase spacing/improve air circulation.
All are running V1.17 firmware

Thanks guys,

FYI
My only, little common problem now is , as I added a Seagate 350gig-and I didn't buy a quick view, is when I have 45-48 recordings, the units, at automatic turn on, the boot programs search for hard drive/lag timer, doesn't find the drive and won't record.
Fairly sure, the no. of recordings causing this, will very from 35-60, with speed, q-view, bad sectors & size of other Hard Drives.

I'm using tv guide online, to program it. A small pain, do to fall/spring/channel schedual changes, and getting no recording lables.

Jan's, wall wort fan, fixed my overheating/crashing tvgos, as my unit is not in a well vented place, with no room for legs.

ATTN: This has nothing to do with the users that get data, bad data, that's crashing most of the 3410s ver 1.17 tvgos menus every other day.

PS: Although unlikely, if anyone reading this post that gets TVGOS schedual data on a LG 3410a, without having to reboot/power cycle, often, please post here - how/where.

As long as you don't have a bad spot on the drive, a non-quickview drive will work flawlessly...
If you have a bad spot, which will be seen as a stuttering in the playback.... (the 'regular' hard drive will sense a bad spot, but retry the spot over and over.... which will cause a frozen picture...) Best thing to do with that recording is rename it "bad Spot" and never erase it.... You can always make it appear smaller by creating a new clip by setting in and out points before and after it... but that takes a bit of effort.. I just mark it bad and be done with it...

IIRC the problem wasn't with the size of the drive but with the number of files stored on it. More files slowed the boot process until, at around 40 files or a few more, the boot time exceeded the turn-on time before a recording so the recording never started. If the DVR was already on and booted before the scheduled recording time there was no problem. A large drive simply encouraged the saving of more files.

Thanks EBO. I am removing my comment so as not to confuse the issue. You are definitely correct.

I believe that ebo is correct...

I've never encountered the issue on any system here. I believe someone posted it had something to do with a 'timeout' that it took to read the file allocation table.... and if the timeout was reached before all the files were seen in the file allocation table, then it thought the drive was --- something.... and I forgot that...

Possibly thought it wasn't initialized? I don't know -- I've never encountered it....

I put my LG LST 3410A back in service after 6 years. After reading the helpful info here I am not using the TVGOS and I've put the machine on 1/4 in coasters and added a lap top duel cooling fan tablet ($9 at Fry's store) that sits between the coasters and the LST 3410. The fans are spaced so that they push air up through the bottom vents. The machine's case is now cool to the touch.

Thanks everyone.

Wow, I've got a bad spot/sector on my HD.
I always wondered how to mark it bad,
like a Windows computer & the sector disk check will do & hide it.
Thanks Jan

Great, cheap, wall wort, cooling idea, 2 fans & hope it's 120v-& not usb powered, for $9!, I'm getting one to add to mine.

No more 2 second reboot every 2-3 days is wonderful.
Thanks GrandpaJ

One of the case manufacturers (Antec?) makes a variation of the laptop cooling pad that is designed for home theater. It looks sharp and doubles as a shelf that you can place your component on.

I'm using a simelar USB fan for cooling a raid array used when editing HD video on a laptop... It's amazing how efficiently they cool!

Hey Folks... Need your input.... I've forgotten.... Does the 3410a since no TVG signals automatically "Fall Back" on it's own.... I've forgotten....

While I waited for a post, took one DVR and set if for November 7th, at 1:55 AM, and turned it off....
The DVR Went past 2AM without any clock change.... So I'm thinking maybe there will Not be DST without a TVG signal...

If I'm wrong, please correct me....

Jan,

I think the clock set is off of the guide stream. Don't think the DST data is known by unit operating system.

Fred