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Hitachi s500/s700 Owners Thread - Page 64

post #1891 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by rader View Post

It looks like this won't be as easy as the new F series sets where the stack sits in a tray which sits in the particle board chassis. On the S500 the tray is screwed into a metal part of the chassis that looks like it is probably epoxied to the bottom of the set (no screws and it ain't movin). The tray is also notched so there's no way to easily move it up or down without some serious tin snip work.
The easiest way I could see to do this is to unscrew each gun from the tray, and then screw them to a 1x1x19" shim running under all three. But do the guns need to be bolted directly to the metal tray for cooling?

Hi Rader,

It's not easy, but you can get at it. This assembly looks similar to mine. It must be removable for factory service purposes. Remove the wood trim piece on either side of the CRT assembly (tray). That will expose the (top) screws holding the tray down. There may also be screws coming in from either side of the tray holding it fast.

Here's an after shimming photo taken showing the side of the tray. Disregard the black plastic cone protruding toward the front of the display. In the side of the tray you'll see some empty screw holes. The holes held the screws coming in from the side holding the tray fast. Your set looks similar. You'll just scrape your knuckles getting at those screws. Upon removal of those trim pieces this is what you'll see, keeping in mid my tray is lifted at this point.
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/u...v/_DSC2552.jpg

Here's a look at the right hand edge.
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/u...v/_DSC2551.jpg

Here's a close up showing the lifted tray and a gap filled with pillow stuffing. This is the gap you'll use to unscrew the side screws. Use a small screwdriver and access from down below.
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/u...v/_DSC2544.jpg

Let us know how it goes!

Regards
post #1892 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by rader View Post

I didn't take any pics yet to show phospor wear. I took some pics directly through the tubes of the convergence pattern to show how much of the CRT face is currently being used.

Hi rader,

You're on the right track. Ideally you want to use almost the entire CRT face. I say almost because going past the edge of the CRT face can damage the CRT. So stop just short of the edge of the CRT face. The limiting edges will be the sides of the CRT face as this is a widescreen image so there will be unused CRT face on the top and bottom. The only way to use more of the CRT face is to shim the tray up then perform an electronic overscan modification which actually increases the overscan.

Think of it as a push-pull system. Mechanical shimming pulls in the overscan, allowing you to push the overscan outward using the DCU convergence. Adding overscan in this way exposes new CRT phosphors, moving the image toward the edge of the CRT face. It's a balancing act once you get into it. Or you can just mechanically shim up, reducing overscan and gaining detail in the process. Mechanical shimming alone will not introduce new phosphors as far as the CRT is concerned, but it will display more of the phosphors already in use, increasing efficiency and detail.

It's hard to tell from the photos, but it seems most of the CRT face is being used already. I hope to explain this clearly, in that you are limited to how much you can shim up by the CRT that uses the entire face first! So look for the smallest gap between the used CRT phosphors and the CRT edge. Note if it's R, B, or G and use that as the reference. Keep that in mind as you consider electronically expanding the CRT footprint.

Here's an after shimming + overscan procedure shot showing the expanded Green CRT face. Please note the right hand edge. It ended up a little too close to the edge for my liking, but all's well that ends well...


Regards
post #1893 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by rader View Post

I didn't take any pics yet to show phospor wear. I took some pics directly through the tubes of the convergence pattern to show how much of the CRT face is currently being used.

Show us both sides of the green, which is usually pretty well centered already. Which is good, because it's good to leave something alone in there to use as your basis and starting point. The green is as good as it gets, as being in center position it requires no alterations based on angles, like red and blue do.

That' s a huge amount of lost phosphor face area on the red! Send us left/right shots of the red as well, and before and after if possible.

Your red definitely needs to be recentered and possibly re-aimed, if you can do so based on what you find of your aging footprint. If the footprint is showing too much uneven phosphor wear, you can't expand your footprint outward towards the edges after all.

Be sure to center your green image electronically by way of the HD DVE Overscan pattern before you loosen up and move anything around in there. That needs to be your guide for getting things correct again after the shimming. It also lets you know diametrically the difference in overscan you are making by doing the shimming and other o'scan redux ops, like changing the sizing in sm one way or the other - expanding it or contracting it.

As always, if changing sm sizing values, write down all starting values on positioning before you change any.


b
post #1894 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summit HDTV View Post


Here's a close up showing the lifted tray and a gap filled with pillow stuffing. This is the gap you'll use to unscrew the side screws. Use a small screwdriver and access from down below.
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/u...v/_DSC2544.jpg

Let us know how it goes!

Regards

Joe -

How much net distance forward did this mod allow you to do?

And have you darkened your surfaces in there yet? Hitachi leaves huge amounts of surface area metal! Needs to be blackened, either with Sharpie pen - use the big ones for the big areas - or duvetyne, or some velvet substance. The stuffing needs to be darkened as well, perhaps with an old black T shirt, which is what I did with my 65" Panny.

I am sure you did that blackening later, right?


b
post #1895 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Joe -

How much net distance forward did this mod allow you to do?

And have you darkened your surfaces in there yet? Hitachi leaves huge amounts of surface area metal! Needs to be blackened, either with Sharpie pen - use the big ones for the big areas - or duvetyne, or some velvet substance. The stuffing needs to be darkened as well, perhaps with an old black T shirt, which is what I did with my 65" Panny.

I am sure you did that blackening later, right?


b

Hi Bob,

I shimmed up 1 7/8" on a 51" display. Yes I blackened the entire interior with a velvet material. Even the black plastic surfaces were too shiny so I covered them also. I didn't post pics however because it looks like a crummy job Regardless it does the job!

Regards
post #1896 of 1970
That's what my shims look like on my Mit, too. Ragged and disheveled and mismatched in everything but their identical thicknesses, but boy do they do the job!



b
post #1897 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo M View Post

Rader,

You hitachi insides look like mine. I never shimmed mine yet. but I did take it all apart to move it upstairs.

Thanks Angelo, I think this is the way I'm going to try to do it. Sounds, much easier than trying to shim each gun and maintain alingment, which is what I was thinking previously. Plus, I have lots of left over 2x4's from my HT construction project.
post #1898 of 1970
Wow Summit, that looks like you're making *really* good use of the CRT face. It's amazing how much of the top and bottom CRT faces doesn't get used on these sets. I wonder why they couldn't have used some type of anamorphic lens to squeeze the 4:3 CRT image to the 16:9 screen, to make better use of the face. I imagine they would be capable of crazy horizontal resolution if fully utilized.

Mr. Bob,
I have some pics using the AVSHD overscan pattern which shows me at a little over 5% oscan on the sides and a little under 5% top and bottom. The convergence pattern actually looked fairly well centered on the guns, but I'll check more thoroughly. My camera won't take pictures of the blue gun without distorting wildly.
A crazy idea I had if the phospor wear showed around the edges was to create a pattern to display which is 100% ire around the edges and 0% in the center, then just run it at 100% contrast for days on end until the wear at the outer edges catches up with the center.
post #1899 of 1970
Just gotta be careful about lines of demarcation on something like that.

Pix of my shimming op are somewhere in the Don't Dump thread, you gotta find them tho. Before and afters showing how much space was being wasted on my 73".

Anamorphic squeeze lenses cause pincushioning on throw distances this short.

Rather than creating 16x9 guns for HD, they elected to simply continue using 4x3 guns, which had always been around, and just not use the full face. Tool and dye'ing up - and all the incredible expense that would have incurred - for a new gen of widescreen CRT pj faces was just not in the cards.



b
post #1900 of 1970
Last night I was able to shim the set 1.5" using 2x4s. It was quite a job requiring the entire circuit board and gun assembly to be lifted, including the back panel connectors. Securing everything in final position is going to require some minor modifications to the cabinet with a coping saw for clearance issues. I'll post some pics later.
Once shimmed the convergence is all out of whack, with the red an blue lines equally moved to the left/right. I assume now I need to do a mechanical re-aim of the guns to get everything centered again? I've been going over the CRT pj articles at curtpalme which are a great reference even though fp oriented.
I did a quick hack job with the focus and convergence, and expanded raster to get closer to the CRT face edges. I am at a little over 5% overscan all around. I think I could probably shim up a 1/2" more at least, and expand raster a little more. Might as well get it perfect since I've gone this far. I have a lot of pin cushion whch I guess I'll need to fix through service mode convergence.
I was able to find the 51SWX20B service manual at eserviceinfo dot com. It's a year older set but almost identical in terms of design.. Anyone know where to find a service manual for the S500/S700 series?
post #1901 of 1970
rader - http://www.filedropper.com/hitachi51s700servicemanual

Keep fighting the good fight!
post #1902 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by rader View Post

Last night I was able to shim the set 1.5" using 2x4s. It was quite a job requiring the entire circuit board and gun assembly to be lifted, including the back panel connectors. Securing everything in final position is going to require some minor modifications to the cabinet with a coping saw for clearance issues. I'll post some pics later.
Once shimmed the convergence is all out of whack, with the red an blue lines equally moved to the left/right. I assume now I need to do a mechanical re-aim of the guns to get everything centered again? I've been going over the CRT pj articles at curtpalme which are a great reference even though fp oriented.
I did a quick hack job with the focus and convergence, and expanded raster to get closer to the CRT face edges. I am at a little over 5% overscan all around. I think I could probably shim up a 1/2" more at least, and expand raster a little more. Might as well get it perfect since I've gone this far. I have a lot of pin cushion whch I guess I'll need to fix through service mode convergence.
I was able to find the 51SWX20B service manual at eserviceinfo dot com. It's a year older set but almost identical in terms of design.. Anyone know where to find a service manual for the S500/S700 series?

Great job! Refocus is required. May as well clean the optics while you're at it. You're on exactly the right track.

Regards
post #1903 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigrig View Post

rader - http://www.filedropper.com/hitachi51s700servicemanual

Keep fighting the good fight!

Awesome, thanks a ton!
post #1904 of 1970
After studying the internals of the set I decided on shimming by raising the entire assembly including the gun tray, circuitboard, and rear connectors. I experimented with raising only the metal assembly holding the CRTs, but then ran into mechanical interference issues with the heatsinks on the mainboard, and not being able to access the raster pots and service DCU button. Raising the whole damn thing actually seemed to be the easiest way to go about it.
I settled on 3" of shim, or two layers of 2x4 studs. This puts me at about 3-4% overscan and just about maximizes the use of the CRT face. The not suprising downside is that there is visible phosphor wear about 1" on the sides, and 2" on the bottom of the screen. I couldn't see any wear looking directly at the CRTs with the lens assembly, and it doesn't show up in pictures, but with a full screen white pattern it's there. I suppose if I went with 1.5" of shim I could get by without showing phosphor wear on the sides, but for me the compromise of improved resolution density and getting a usable windows desktop (finally!) on my HTPC is worth it.
Here are the pics, hopefully this works...
Lower shim which raises the the entire gun/mainboard assembly and is screwed into the bottom of the cabinet with 3.5" screws:

Installed:

Cabinet interference:

Modified with a cutout tools so that gun assembly fits back in original position (old blankets in place to prevent getting dust on the mirror):

Upper shims to raise particle board up level with the gun assembly:

The panels come up almost flush with the bottom edge of the box after this, but looks factory once they are installed.

Other mods necessary:
-relocate magic sensor board at back of set (not necessary if shimming only 1.5"). I tossed it, magic focus sucks.
- About 1" needed to be cut off the top of the perforated panel at the back of the set (probably not necessary if shimming only 1.5")
- A small 1.5x1" section needed to be cut from the particle board panels which sit on either side of the gun assembly. Easily done with a coping saw.

A full days work overall, but no more difficult than a number of HT projects people regularly take on (IB subs, absorber panels, hush boxes, etc). I made sure to get everything secured down as well as the factory setup, so I don't have to redo convergence everytime the set is moved or gets bumped.
post #1905 of 1970
Green CRT face usage after shimming (convergence pattern shown):

AVSHD overscan pattern after shimming and doing a hack focus+convergence job:

I ended up increasing raster pots to get around 3-4% all around.

After I finished shimming I took some measurements with ColorHCFR and my i1 sesor. One of the most significant improvements noted in the shimming thread, which convinced me to try this mod, was an improvement in light output. Immediately after the shimming mod, with no additional changes to display setting, light output at 100IRE went from 28.4 ftL to 30.6 ftL. What's more, is I was able to increase contrast up from 33% before shimming, up to 41% before I got any trace of blue falloff. This resulted in an increase from 28.4 to 33 ftL (or 97 -> 113 cd/m^2), a 16% increase! It seems a big benefit of using more of the CRT face is being able to drive the guns harder before any clipping occurs.
post #1906 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by rader View Post

Green CRT face usage after shimming (convergence pattern shown):
...
AVSHD overscan pattern after shimming and doing a hack focus+convergence job:
...
I ended up increasing raster pots to get around 3-4% all around.

After I finished shimming I took some measurements with ColorHCFR and my i1 sesor. One of the most significant improvements noted in the shimming thread, which convinced me to try this mod, was an improvement in light output. Immediately after the shimming mod, with no additional changes to display setting, light output at 100IRE went from 28.4 ftL to 30.6 ftL. What's more, is I was able to increase contrast up from 33% before shimming, up to 41% before I got any trace of blue falloff. This resulted in an increase from 28.4 to 33 ftL (or 97 -> 113 cd/m^2), a 16% increase! It seems a big benefit of using more of the CRT face is being able to drive the guns harder before any clipping occurs.

Nice job!!! A true shim mod.

Really worth it in every respect.
post #1907 of 1970
rader,

That is just great. I'm glad that my suggestion of shimming from the bottom did indeed work for you! Your framing looks very professional to boot. Very nice and neat and nothing suspended, the whole structure still supported from the base of the unit.

Again Great Work!
post #1908 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo M View Post

Your framing looks very professional to boot.

I made sure to resize the pictures, so the gaps from uneven saw cuts, and hammer marks do not show.
post #1909 of 1970
Your being modest. Its the pros that make the hard things look great....
post #1910 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by rader View Post

Green CRT face usage after shimming (convergence pattern shown):

AVSHD overscan pattern after shimming and doing a hack focus+convergence job:

I ended up increasing raster pots to get around 3-4% all around.

After I finished shimming I took some measurements with ColorHCFR and my i1 sesor. One of the most significant improvements noted in the shimming thread, which convinced me to try this mod, was an improvement in light output. Immediately after the shimming mod, with no additional changes to display setting, light output at 100IRE went from 28.4 ftL to 30.6 ftL. What's more, is I was able to increase contrast up from 33% before shimming, up to 41% before I got any trace of blue falloff. This resulted in an increase from 28.4 to 33 ftL (or 97 -> 113 cd/m^2), a 16% increase! It seems a big benefit of using more of the CRT face is being able to drive the guns harder before any clipping occurs.

rader,

Wow Wow Wow! With woodwork like that you'll have friends asking if you'll redo their deck!

You did a super job. Nice documentation to boot. Enjoy the new display.

Regards
post #1911 of 1970
Rader - Incredible job! NICE!

If you want to see a scenario of what I did to my 73" Mit in this regard go to this thread, starting at post 5126, from back a few months -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95922&page=171

Green sides - not bad, perfectly centered

[/url]

[/url]



Red and blue - not so good. Very badly centered -

centermost section - almost at the edge

[/url]

Look at the top. You can see the edge of the CRT face itself in the background as it goes upward from the edge of the image on it. This side looks great.

[/url]

outermost section - way far away from the edge

[/url]



blue at centermost edge, almost touching it

[/url]

outermost edge with WAY more space

[/url]

Really badly centered by Mit. The green was deceptively well centered while simply not expanded fully, at first glance indicating all was well.

But the red and blue were hugely telltale - blazingly off center and totally wasting huge amounts of valuable CRT face real estate.



I took care of that. Follow the thread and you'll see Afters...



b
post #1912 of 1970
Hi Mr. Bob, the mod to your mits was one I followed as well before attempting this. I played around some with re-aiming the red and blue guns after shimming but they seem to be aimed pretty well from the factory. If I toed in the red to line up with the green in the center of the screen, it ended up being farther off on the right side of the screen requireing more correction there. So I just left them as they were. The shot of the green CRT edge I posted is the closest any of the guns get to the edge of the CRT face, so I had plenty of space to work with.
Last night I finished up geo and convergence with the screen jig I bought years ago. Put the duvethyne cloth back, lens hood, and added some minor lens stripping. Touched up grey scale and color decoder with colorHCFR and my i1, put the rest of the trim panels back together and called it done. I've been tweaking this set continuously for probably the last month. Before that I hadn't touched it for 3 years. Hard to believe it's a 7 year old set. I hope to get a full 10 years out of it before moving on to fp based home theater 2.0 (which will also require a new house!)
post #1913 of 1970
How's it look?

Portland's my home town y'know...

b
post #1914 of 1970
Better than ever of course!
post #1915 of 1970
Hey all,

I've had my s700 for 7 or so years now and have never replaced the bulb/lamp. The TV still looks good but I think it could be brighter. What is the replacement bulb for this tv and any recommendations on where to buy it?

Thanks!
post #1916 of 1970
If this is a CRT set, which I believe it is, it doesn't use bulbs but CRTs. And they are ready to go for years and years more, if it's only 7 years old. They don't go out all the time like bulbs do.

CRT sets are permanent sets. Not like the short lifespan sets of today. I have repaired and calibrated 18 year old CRT sets, and they just keep on truckin' -

If it's dim and your optics have never been cleaned, that's your answer. Have it professionally done, or do it yourself on a phone consult with me, and I'll keep you on the straight and narrow.

Don't attempt it yourself without professional grade guidance. Those optics are very fragile and sensitive to being scratched, which is permanent damage. And these days they are near irreplaceable.

b
post #1917 of 1970
Wow, good to know! Yea it is a CRT.

Any idea how much it costs to clean the optics? Any suggestions on companies that do this? I'm in Atlanta if that helps any.

Thanks again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

If this is a CRT set, which I believe it is, it doesn't use bulbs but CRTs. And they are ready to go for years and years more, if it's only 7 years old. They don't go out all the time like bulbs do.

CRT sets are permanent sets. Not like the short lifespan sets of today. I have repaired and calibrated 18 year old CRT sets, and they just keep on truckin' -

If it's dim and your optics have never been cleaned, that's your answer. Have it professionally done, or do it yourself on a phone consult with me, and I'll keep you on the straight and narrow.

Don't attempt it yourselfd without professional grade guidance. Those optics are very fragile and sensitive to being scratched, which is permanent damage. And these days they are near irreplaceable.

b
post #1918 of 1970
I don't know anybody in your area who would know how. And that includes most ISF calibrators, as stuff like this has never been taught at ISF.

Contact me directly for information like this, no pm's please -

b
post #1919 of 1970
Quote:
Originally Posted by agentgreen View Post

Wow, good to know! Yea it is a CRT.

Any idea how much it costs to clean the optics? Any suggestions on companies that do this? I'm in Atlanta if that helps any.

Thanks again!

If you want an easy way to do it on your own - remove the speaker cover, and the screws from the control panel. Once that control panel is off, you can reach through the hole to access the tops of the CRT lenses. Use appropriate care to not scratch the lenses - use a soft wet cloth and gently remove the dust from the surface. Maybe blow the lenses off with canned air first? It's not a full cleaning, but it's easy and better than nothing.

Matt
post #1920 of 1970
Thanks!
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