New DVDO iScan HD - Page 3  

So Dale, I am confused, doesn't the 5900 apply HDCP over its DVI port at all times (ie: require a "Handshake" to communicate with a HDCP compliant display)?

I know I tried a 5900 with my projector, which is not HDCP compliant, and after I activated the DVI port with Denon's firmware, it would not work with my display while playing a disc that did not contain HDCP or even display the 5900's menu.

It seems that you are saying that if I were to play a non HDCP flagged disk on the 5900 it would go through the iscan and get processed and display on a non HDCP compliant projector. I don't understand how that could happen.

Phil, it probably wouldn't. If the 5900 is automatically activating HDCP over DVI, then the iScan can't "solve" that equation.

I don't actually know what the 5900 does, seeing as it's a very recently released player. What I was saying, is that if the 5900 does not apply HDCP to its output signal under some circumstances (which would seem to be the reasonable thing to do if a particular disc is not copy protected - but then 'reasonable' doesn't alway apply, does it?), then the iScan could scale the signal. Of course if the 5900 always applies HDCP encryption to its output regardless of what it's playing back, then the iScan HD would simply pass the signal through unchanged to its DVI output port.

In general, there's no requirement for an HDCP-capable device to always encrypt its output. That doesn't mean it can't or it won't, but simply that HDCP rules don't require it to. That may not be applicable for DVD players, though, as an extra set of rules may be applied on top of those used strictly for HDCP. Does anyone here know for sure what the DVD Forum requires of its licensees with respect to DVI output players?

- Dale Adams

I asked the question on the recent Denon guest forum. If you want to use DVI on your projector with the 5900 it must be HDCP even if your source is a regular DVD. That is the reason I decide not to purchase the 5900. The thinking is rather stupid but thats the HDCP rules. Your only choice on the 5900 is analog if you don't have HDCP.

TonyC

Dale:

It seems like the iScan HD at the quoted MSRP might be a hit. From a 50" plasma wannabe (planning to get the Panny TH50PHDUY in 2004) perspective, it will be important for DVDO to demonstrate (via still pics, for example) that your device is better than Panny's internal scaler for DVD playback. Your benchmark here might be Fujitsu's AVM processing. If you guys are better than Fujitsu's AVM, then you're off to the races... 50" Panny costs $6K, 50" Fujitsu is $8K. Panny + iScan HD is still less than the Fujitsu, with better connectivity/flexibility. Having said that, HDCP compliance is critical for me. I will NOT buy the iScan HD now if it is not HDCP compliant OR cannot be made compliant by a simple software download in the future. Just one man's perspective...

Good Luck!

We've done a quick comparison on a 50" Fujitsu AVM plasma with an earlier prototype iScan HD scaler. We were certainly not any worse than the Fujitsu's scaling. The test wasn't long enough to see if we were any better or not. Now that the iScan's video processing hardware is pretty much complete, we need to do this comparison test again. I did notice that the Fujitsu's deinterlacer combed on bad film edits more than the iScan's did.

The iScan HD is not HDCP compliant in the sense that it will not input, scale, and output an HDCP encrypted signal. It will allow an HDCP encrypted source device to successfully connect to an HDCP capable display in its passthrough mode, but that's probably not what you're interested in. Unfortunately, an HDCP upgrade is not as simple as just a software download. The DVI receivers and transmitters are physically different devices (which you can't buy without an HDCP license) so there would have to be a hardware upgrade of some sort to give full HDCP processing capability.

- Dale Adams

Two quick questions, if I may...

1) If you were to connect a Panasonic RP91 w/ SDI to the SDI input on the iScan HD (when available) and then connect the DVD iScan HD to the DVI input of a front projector that is HDCP 'compliant' would this work? And if it works would you have the ability to de-interlace/scale or will it be passed through?

The fact that in this scenario connecting the DVD player to the iScan HD using SDI may or may not impact on the iScan HD being able to connect it's DVI output to the DVI-HDCP input of the projector but I thought I would throw that in just to see.

2) I am curious to know what type of comb filter you are using on the composite inputs (2 line, 3 line, 3D). I know everyone out there is saying, "Why would anyone care?" but as a owner of a large laserdisc collection and Pioneer 704 I would like to try and squeeze every last drop of performance I can as I blow the image over 80".

Thank you.

EmoryS

Thanks for the answers Dale ,

Two more questions if I may ...

An interesting point was made in the DVD Forum Thread regarding On-Screen menus , which on the DV-59AVi and possibly the 5900 , are only output thru an S-Video port and not DVI(or HDMI) . For setting or accessing features for SACD or DVD-A playback , a separate feed or monitor was required .

Question , are all outputs (S-Video , DVI) active at the same time and/or if an S-video signal with Menu is input and the output is DVI , will the Menu arrive at the projector ? Am I making any sense ?

Secondly , you mentioned about full control of aspect ratios by being able to simply input X.XX:1 for the known aspect ratio of the film. Would this function be assignable to a discrete function that could be addressed by a remote like the Pronto ?

Thanks again for participating on the Forum ,

Scott...........................:D

Yes, this would work. 480i/576i data from the RP91 that comes into the iScan over SDI will be deinterlaced and scaled. It may then be output from the iScan HD's analog or DVI port. Non HDCP compliant DVI sources are generally compatible with HDCP compliant displays; it's the reverse that's not true. Use of the SDI input in no way impacts or changes the use and abilities of the DVI output or input.

I have a large laserdisc collection myself, so I certainly understand your interest. Let me get back to you on this tomorrow. I'm not at work at the moment and don't have access to all my documentation. I just want to be sure and give you the correct answer. I can tell you this: it is not a 3D Y/C separator, but rather a multi-line adaptive one.

- Dale Adams

The iScan does not have an S-Video output, just a DVI output and a multi-function analog one (YPbPr or RGB, separate or embedded sync, etc.). We had not planned on having both the analog an digital outputs active at the same time, although it could be done if there's a good reason for it. The main reason for this is that the timing for a given video format - e.g., 1080i - is different for analog and digital signals and we can only produce a single output timing at any given time.

Perhaps you meant to ask if multiple inputs are active at the same time? Only one input at any one time is sent to the output of the iScan. It can easily switch between inputs, but multiple inputs are not mixed or blended, nor is there any type of PiP (picture in picture) functionality.

However, if an input to the iScan has an OSD embedded in it by the video source connected to that input, then the OSD data should be visible on the iScan's output.

The iScan HD's OSD, by the way, will be visible on both the analog and DVI outputs.

That's our intent. All the direct IR codes haven't been implemented yet, but we intend to provide direct access to all iScan functions. Specification of aspect ratio is included in this.

- Dale Adams

Dale,

I am new to video scalers but learning much from this discussion thread. Thank you for responding to so many messages.

The next closest competitor to the IScan HD would seem to be the CS-1 and CS-2. The CS-1 has DVI input and output, but no HDCP. The CS-2 has HDCP and also the option of an SDI input. The CS-1 lists for $500 more than the Iscan HD and the CS-2 lists for $1000 more. The SDI input is an additional sum.

I would think that there must be some feature and performance differences that make it financially viable for DVDO to carry a product with such a large price difference from a near competitor. Can you explain how the IScan HD is likely to differ from the CS models - in ways other than price? Here's the sensitive question: Where will the IScan HD fall short?

Terry

Dale,

Thank you for responding to my question so quickly and I look forward to finding out what type of comb filter the iScan HD uses. I wish all the other companies I deal with on a day-to-day basis were as customer service oriented as DVDO.

If you don't mind, I have one additional question...

Since many popular front projectors in production today (Sony HS-20, Sanyo Z2, etc.) are expecting PC levels (1-255) via their DVI input, what is the iScan HD "sending"?

It sounded like in an earlier post that within the iScan HD the user had the ability to chose between PC levels (1-255) or Video (16-235) but I may have been reading to much into it.

If this user selection does exist, along with all the other great things about the iScan HD, I think you may need to expand production to accommodate the overwhelming success you will have with this product!

Based on specs. and your answers in this thread the iScan HD sounds like a perfect addition to any home theater setup!

Thanks again.

Regards,

EmoryS

The iScan HD has a 4-line 'super-adaptive' comb filter. ("Super-adaptive" is marketing-speak for "really good adaptive". ;) ) It does have better performance than the one in the iScan Ultra, so you could used that as a baseline if you have an Ultra available for testing.

- Dale Adams

I'll compare the iScan HD to the CS-1, and concentrate only on the areas where the iScan HD might 'fall short' of the CS-1's features or performance. I've chosen the CS-1 for 2 reasons: 1) It's probably the closest to the iScan in both price and features (at least from a high-level viewpoint, and 2) We have one of these in our lab so I can make direct comparisons.

As nearly as I can tell, here's where the iScan HD will offer less than the CS-1:

1) The iScan won't scale a DVI input signal greater than 480p or 576p.
Caveat: We're looking to add this as a software upgrade, but I certainly can't promise it. It may be possible; it may not. This is a potential advantage of the iScan's programmable video processing hardware, but at this point it is just that - potential.

2) The iScan HD has one less component input port.
Caveat: The CS-1 has 3 component input ports. 2 are used for interlaced, while 1 is used only for SD progressive signals. The iScan has 2 component input ports, either one of which can accept interlaced or progressive SD signals and which auto-switch between modes and to pass-through when the component source is HD. I suspect some users would prefer the latter setup to the former.

3) The iScan HD has an external power supply (i.e., a 'wall wart' or 'brick'). The CS-1's power supply is internal with a detachable IEC power cord.

4) The CS-1 has a better front-panel display than the iScan - more (but smaller) characters.

5) The CS-1 has a 12V trigger output. The iScan does not.

6) The CS-1 will probably support a higher output pixel clock rate than the iScan HD. The iScan's pixel clock generator currently only goes up to 133MHz.
Caveat: We working to increase the pixel clock frequency by the time the iScan ships. We want it to do at least 150 MHz. Again, I can't promise this, but it is a possibility.


That's all I can think of. I'll skip the list which does the opposite comparison because there's no way I want to type that much. :D

- Dale Adams

At this point, the iScan sends out 'video' levels on its DVI output. There's one exception to this - if an input comes in on the DVI port that has PC levels, then the output produced from that input (whether it be scaled or just passed-through) will have PC levels. Essentially, the iScan mirrors on its output the nature of the signal on its inputs. The vast majority of those signals use the video range, so the iScan's output will be in the video range the vast majority of the time.

We are aware that this is a problem and are looking at ways to offer an option for either type of output level range. This presents a bit of an issue, since DVI is defined to be an 8-bit resolution format. The granularity of 8-bit DVI signal is a bit coarse (9 or 10 bits would be a lot better), and if you perform the conversion in a sloppy way or cut any corners you can end up with banding or solarization on the output signal. You can add a low-level noise (or 'dither') signal to the video before the 'resampling' from video to PC levels, and this will help the banding problem, but it could introduce a very low noise level into the signal which some may find objectionable. One other issue is that the range expansion from 16-235 to 1-255 can often result in some clipping of the video signal since there may be overshoot present on some signal which extends into the >235 or <16 range.

Right now, this is another one of those "we're looking at it and we'd like to offer it but can't yet promise anything" type of features.

- Dale Adams

Dale,

Thanks for your forwardness on comparing the CS-1 to the DVDO IScan HD. You focused on the short-falls of the IScan HD. Wow! Feel free to trample on the CS-1 when and if you have a chance. :p

Dale,

Thank you again for your prompt reply!

After thinking on this DVI black level 'issue' further, I believe I have come up with a method that will give you the best possible connection between a DVD player and a projector using the iScan HD.

I know what I am about to describe might seem counter-intuitive, but hear me out.

Please assume the following equipment:
1) Sanyo PLV-Z2 set to 'normal through' so 1:1 pixel mapping can be achieved.
2) iScan HD w/ SDI input
3) Panasonic RP91 w/ SDI output

Using the Panasonic RP91 w/ SDI this will ouput a 480i 'signal' digitally into the SDI input of the iScan HD. Then the iScan HD de-interlaces, turning this 480i 'signal' into a 480p 'signal'. Then the iScan HD scales the 480p 'signal' up to a 720p 'signal'. All of this was done in the digital domain (no D/A to A/D conversions have taken place). Then this 720p 'signal' will then be converted into analog and sent out the iScan's HD analog output into the analog input of the Sanyo PLV-Z2. Since 720p is one of the resolutions the Sanyo PLV-Z2 can accept (and it happens to be it's 'native' resolution) and since we are assuming that the projector is set to 'normal through' this analog signal by-passes everything in the projector until it gets to the LCD panels themselves. Since the LCD panels can only accept analog signals (unlike DLP which stays digital to the actual pixel, LCD digital signals will be converted into analog so the pixels on the LCD panels know what to do) I wouldn't think there will be any Analog to Analog conversion. Therefore you will have been able to do all the processing in the digital domain and only output what the projector needs to by-pass any uncessary D/A to A/D conversions along the way giving you the best possible connection between DVD player and projector.

I would much rather do this than risk DVI 'black' level mis-matches. You also get the benefit of not having to worry about expensive DVI cables or problems that DVI cables have with long runs.

I am not trying to 'bash' DVI, but the more studying I have done, I think the system I have outlined above is about the best solution. The only other approach would be to use a HTPC, but I think a DVD player w/ SDI and a iScan HD w/ SDI would be an easier solution. The cost might be more but depending on how you build your HTPC those can get pricey as well.

Is what I have outlined make any sense? Or, have I completely added 1 + 1 and have gotten 5?

I would love any feedback...

Regards,

EmoryS

Dale,

Thanks for all the info. I really appreciate and respect your candidness.

The iscan HD sounds wonderful, but I'm really disappointed about that there's only one DVI input. At a minimum I'll have a Dish HD sat reeiver and DVD player with DVI outputs.

I guess it's next to impossible to do anything about this now, but I'm curious as to the thinking behind this design decision.

Is there something I'm missing, like there are cheap autosensing DVI switchers available? On e of the

Dale,

Pls. consider comparing the iScan HD to Lumagen Vision Pro.

I'm planning on getting a scaler to work with my Barco Cine 7.

Sources include:-
1. Panny RP82 with SDI
2. Philips 963
3. X-box
4. PS-2
5. Pioneer LD-X1
6. Philips VR999 S-VHS recorder

I know I'll be short of component inputs if I go for iScan HD but if the quality advantages are obvious, I can always route the less important gaming consoles thro' my receiver.

^_^

AK47

AK47,

I think it's our job to do the comparisons.

Perfect.

Looks like an exciting year ahead for those of us looking for a scaler.

:D

Thanks, Ofer.

I've been trying to avoid making any subjective comparisons or descriptions. It's one thing to say "the HD Leeza deinterlaces 1080i while the iScan HD does not", but very different to say "Scaler X has a smoother, creamier image with far fewer jaggies than the competition".

- Dale Adams

While I don't actually know what the video signal path inside the Z2 looks like, I'd be very surprised if it actually does what you describe. It's far more typical for a fixed-pixel projector to digitize every incoming analog signal, and then analyze it in the digital domain to determine if it's really 1:1 or not, or how to process it.

Let's ignore for the moment what the projector's LCD panels actually need in the way of driving signals. Now, while the projector could perhaps map the scan lines in the incoming video signal to the vertical pixel array of the LCD panel, it also has to take that continuous analog signal and map it horizontally to the LCD panel's pixels. It will almost certainly digitize the signal to do this.

- Dale Adams

The reason for the single DVI input is largely historical. The iScan HD was originally conceived as a quicker time-to-market product and was intended to be released a while ago. For a variety of reasons that didn't happen. In the meantime, we added a number of features over and above the original product definition.

Some longer lead-time factors didn't change, however. One of these was the product's enclosure, which is a derivative of the iScan Ultra's. There simply isn't room on the back panel for more than 2 DVI connectors (one for input, one for output) unless we deleted a number of other connectors. Unlike most video connectors, there aren't any stacked (one on top of the other) DVI connectors available, so the iScan's DVI connectors are placed side-by-side. This takes up a lot of rear panel space and doesn't leave room for more connectors.

We realize that many people like yourself would want DVI switching capability. We wanted to put at least one more DVI input on the iScan HD, but factors noted above simply didn't permit us to. Now on the next product . . . .

- Dale Adams

Unfortunately, we don't have a Vision Pro in-house for such a comparison. I did provide come comparison between the CS-1 and the iScan HD because we do have a CS-1. I'd like to avoid making any comparisons to products with which I do not have direct experience. We do have a Vision in our lab, but that's a different enough product from the Vision Pro that my comparisons would likely be subjective, which is something I'm trying to avoid.

- Dale Adams

Vision would be fine as it is identical to Vision Pro w/o SDI and source switching.

BTW, any info on the video DACs of iScan HD?

I still couldn't understand why most scalers come with 10/27 or 10/54 DACs while some of the cheap DVDPs uses 12/108 or 12/216 DACs. I know the old story of multi-bit audio DACs ... linearity ... but I guess Video DACs are a bit different, aren't they?

:)

Since most of my comments with respect to the Vision would be subjective, I'll take Ofer's advice and let others do the comparison. If you have any questions regarding a specific feature I'll be happy to address it.

The DACs are 12-bit. The actual clock rate is dependent on the particular video format in use. We do oversample the lower resolutions by anywhere from 4X to 2X. Oversampling is done primarily to ease the implementation constraints on the analog reconstruction filter for the DAC's output.

I doubt any scaler comes with a 27 MHz DAC. (There wouldn't be much scaling done at only 27 MHz, now would there? :D ) Clock rates vary from 27 MHz for 480p up to perhaps 150 MHz for 1080p. Oversampling increases the clock frequency requirements in direct proportion to the oversampling multiple. Concerns about linearity are the same for video DACs and audio DACs.

As far as the 10-bit spec goes, it's hard to find many affordable video DACs with over 10-bit resolution.

- Dale Adams

Thanks again Dale ,

I've got to re-think the Menu application connections a little more .

I see that you are at LVCC SO 1&2/16901 at CES 2004 . Can you give us an idea of what we can expect for demos regarding this product ?

Any chance you might be demoing at the AVS Dinner party Friday night ?

Thanks in advance ,

Scott............................:)

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year .

Our CES booth will have several live iScan HD units being demonstrated. They will be connected to several different types of displays (DLP projector, plasma, and probably a CRT). There will be both canned demonstrations and more personalized demos available.

We currently have no plans to demo at the AVS Dinner.

- Dale Adams

hi Dale a question here from accross the pond
any idea of UK release date/price
currently pondering on a iscan ultra but could really do with the lipsync correction
thanks