CRMA/MM Superplex Formula - Page 63

This guys' a mover & a do'er.

5' x 8' becomes a perfect 16:9 if you have it cut to 54" tall. Have the GE Dealer do it (...for NO CHARGE!) and ask them to make sure it is square.

Getting it mounted is the next objective. Will it be going up onto a flat wall surface? Can you spray it after it is mounted?

MM,

How "Bendable" is the mirror? The Houston Store does not have any in stock and the only place they show to have one close is in Salt Lake. Next month I am going to Utah and I was wondering if I could get it into the door of my camper.


Steve

PS The lady at the Houston GE store was not very helpful

Howdy MM, CMRA and other folks,
I posted to this thread back in February (#937). At the time I asked a bit about FS mirrors and now I see that MM is giving it a go. I'm glad to hear about it and the results look great. I just wanted to post now to reiterate another possibile use of FS mirrors - modular screens. Has anyone else considered breaking the screen into its components to isolate the reflective background from the topcoat screens in a LF type of design. Why not create a first surface mirror backing (or even regular mirror backing) that is first mounted to the wall (reflective side out of course). I am thinking of trying large sheets of mirrored mylar (or foil) that can be spray adhesived directly to a flat wall or cheap backerboard. This may provide a dirt cheap FS mirror. Next, one could apply MM topcoats to a clear sheet of plexi that is mounted directly in front of the mylar surface.

Basically this process should create a LF effect without the need to buy the more expensive plexi mirrors (or provide a mirror for those of us without a GE Polymershapes distributor nearby). The advantage here is that one could upgrade the top coat screens as Missman develops new formulas (without having to get a new mirror or scrape an old one). This design could also allow for some truely controlled tests of the light fusion effect versus superplex because the exact same topcoat sheet can be used, eliminating the influence of variation in topcoat applications. Just mount the same topcoat sheet over either a mirror surface or a painted surface.

nice work guys and I look forward to future iterations.

cheers,
fishshtick

well I am going to have them cut it to a 60*80. The A10X is a 4*3 native pj so I would rather be able to sue all of the res that the pj can put out and just deal with the black borders. heck at that big of a screen it is not going to be that big of a deal for me .

I went over to HD today and they have what looks like a really nice HVLP sprayer-compresser combo for 42 a day. so I should be able to get the whole screen done this weekend for around 220 or so.

I have a really nice canon dig. camera so I will post pics as soon as it is up and runnin.

Thanks again MM for all your help!!!

Ohh ya it is going up over a windows that just happened to be 80" long by 60" high. I am going be bringing the mirror in to work. We have a nice storage room that has a frieght door I can open for air and plenty of room for me to tape off to work on it. Ohh here is a good question. What should I mount it on to? and what should I use to mount it? i assume some type of glue but wasnt sure what kind to pick up.

Following up on my last post, it looks like mylar sheeting could be a very affordable option. Some quick research indicates that mylar sheeting with 98% reflectivity is sold in the greenhouse/hydroponics industry and craft industry. You can get a 4' by 10' continuous sheet for about $12. For example see the following link:

http://www.kalyx.com/store/proddetai...715.0/file.htm

there are dozens of other online suppliers with similar items.

It seems to me that this stuff could be applied to a wall or smooth backerboard with spray adhesive and a rubber roller or squiggie (sp?). A cheap and thin sheet of plexi could then be used for painting on topcoats (the screen surface). This screen plexi would then be mounted directly against the mylar surface.

I suspect that it would be difficult to distinguish this from LF on a real mirror.

I don't know how much cheaper this would be than mirrored plexi, but most of us can probably find a regular sheet of plexi locally and get this stuff cheap on line (or even find it locally).

cheers,
fishshtick

Fishshtick,

This sounds like one of the best mirror alternative materials I've seen yet! Thanks for the heads up. Does anyone know where we might be able to find this mirror-like mylar material locally in Vancouver, BC, Canada? Thanks in advance.

That kalyx link is easily bogged...
but it says:
"2 mil - 10' long Mylar. Mirror-like mylar is the best reflective material made, with over 98% reflectivity. 48 inches wide. Both sides are reflective. Can be fastened to most surfaces with staples or spray-cement. $15.34"

I'd like to find something wider than 48"

This optigraphix could be interesting...

Dang, that Kalyx link is pretty bogged. Anyhow, just do a search for indoor gardening, hydroponics, or gardening with "Mylar" as a search term. The stuff is everywhere. It is also sometimes sold by florists and craftstores, but the gardening stuff seems to provide the biggest width rolls.

PerfectionHunter,
Here is a place that is probably near you (I think this is the Fraser Valley in BC). Anyhow, you can get a 25 ft roll of the stuff for $30 CAD. Split half of it with a friend.

Marcosyscom,
I bet you could easily piece together or even slighly overlap sheets of the Mylar behind a plexi-based screen and it wouldn't show in the least. The Optigraphix stuff looks like a possibility (perhaps a bit more expensive). I wouldn't staple or tape it up. I think spray adhesive to a flat wall or backer surface would provide a smoother finish.

cheers,
fishshtick

If someone wants to set the all time record for cheapest mirrored surface, maybe one of these mylar space blankets would do the trick (just flatten out the creases as you glue it to a backboard). Dimensions = 56" by 84" and it costs all of $3.99. I've had one of these in my first aid kit for hiking for years and only just now realized it is a super cheap mirror. You can easily see your reflection.

cheers,
fishshtick

Here is the link for a mylar blanket for $3.99. You can probably get one cheaper at your local Walmart (sporting goods section).

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/st...26&storeId=226

Honestly, at this price, what do you have to lose? You can always replace it with a nicer sheet of mylar it fails.

I suggest Masonite board. About $14.00 per 4' x 8' sheet, it is very stiff, will not warp, and with offer a flat, smooth surface on both sides if assembled as show in the attached diagram.

Cool, thanks!

That explains things perfectly. It also adds about 60 bucks to my project that i didnt ever think about budgeting... ohh well it just money right...

Nothing but time. The cost of the MMud paint Mix. The cost of a piece of Clear Plexi. Adhesive. And the unwanted gain of some disappointment as well. This idea has been floated before, and sank out of sight for the most obvious reasons.....difficulty of getting a smooth application onto varied surfaces. The size involved is far greater than a window, and how many times have you seen a professional job of applying Mylar on a window have screw-ups? A bunch, I'd say.

Don't take offense, but offering up "Ideas" for others to try, without having attempted and reviewed such oneself, is not DIY, it's "Try this and see if it works." In saying such, you raise unwarranted hopes for those looking for definitive answers and proven applications, not suggestions. I myself have been taken to task for generating hopes and expectations, and that with an application "KNOWN" to be exceptionally good at receiving a projected image.

Simply wording it as, "Who knows, this might work? Anyone else want to try it first? " is more constructive than, "What have you got to lose."

Secondly, I want you to show me any independent validation of that written text that states that a Mylar Film can have 98% reflective properties. If a First Surface mirror consisting of a Aluminum coating (...recognized as the best in the Industry...) can only muster 96-97%, then either the claims are overstated, or they have come into something new that bears scrutiny. If the claims were true, the mirror industry would apply it to their production methods instead of the more costly Aluminum coatings. If only it was / is true, but even so, I'm betting that before it was all over, the "pain in the butt" issues would be a certain drawback, and the overal cost would not warrant the non-use of a Plexi mirror. The Mirror IS a known quality, not a speculative guess.

But....., wadda I know? I was the one who said Mirrors were impractical, too expensive, dangerous to work with, and presented optical issues.

Go figure.

Who knows, maybe it might work, with effort and applied skills, and result in an image as good as the one below.

MississippiMan,
I agree that talk is cheap. However, I am bit perplexed by your negativity. I would figure any DIYer forum would appreciate a suggestion for a cheap and easily available material, even if it is unproven. I don't think anyone would confuse my suggestion as a definitive solution. I qualified that mylar is an untested idea and I provided some links where people could find it. I hope to give this a try, but I can't afford a projector yet and it would be silly to build a screen without a projector ready to test it. Now, I could have kept this idea "top secret" and let everyone wait months before I can test it or...I can share the idea (with sources) in case another brave soul would like to give it a shot. If it works and they post the result maybe LF would become available to more people.

I have worked with this mylar in a greenhouse and it is nothing like the very thin film that goes on windows (first off it is not transparent). The 2 mil material is actually a bit stiff (the 1 mil is more flimsy and the safety blanket is very flimsy). I am also willing to bet that any slight wrinkles or seams in this material would have absolutely not effect through the semi-opaque coats of MM (prove me wrong...please). I have not yet decided whether I will try to spray adhesive the material to the wall or backerboard or if I will just secure the corners and let the plexi press the mylar against the wall.

In terms of reflectivity, this material is a metallized polymer that was invented by one of the big chem companies (Dupont I believe) for use in the space program. You can do a quick search on the web under "mylar" and "hydroponics" and find many sites that quote basically the same numbers. I leave it to others to argue the numbers with Dupont. Why quibble over a few % of reflectivity? This mylar is clearly more "mirror-like" than the old superplex formula which worked extremely well. I would not be surprised if the backings on your plexi-mirrors are basically a different application of the same polymer (maybe your know otherwise). I have attached a picture of a standard roll of this material for you folks to judge its mirror abilities.

I was originally hoping that one of you hardcore screen builders would give this material a try since you are the only ones who can really judge the quality of different designs based on all of the screen you have built. I will likely end up building one screen and it will be good enough for me, but in the spirit of better and cheaper screens I hope this helps someone.

cheers,
fishshtick

Mississippi if i member correctly you were trying to get people's credit card numbers for a group purchase on first surface acrylic mirrors that you hadn't even tried before ! so again practice what you preach ! One other point is that this stuff is easier to apply smoothly! than some unskilled painter that has never used a hvlp gun before! spraying heavy bodied chalky paints that were not meant to spray with these hvlp guns

I thought a while back you were talking with cmra about "developing " a film surface for people that did not either know how or want to spray screens . I figured you were thinking of a reflective mylar film surface and then using a semi opaque , or semi transparent white film applied over the mirror film , this would be the easiest way to achieve a consistent top coat over a mirror ! . By the way how is that development coming along mississippi ? Mississippi i have some other questions for you as well !. do you suppose that some of these mylar films have metallics in them as well ? perhaps they have the same reflective rating as a first surface mirror but not as optically correct as a first surface mirror !. would the quality of the image reflected matter that much? you are only using it as reflecting light back , a very minute amount of light back ! as having to go through the topcoats twice ! you are covering it up with chalky ceiling paint, thinned to the point that any consistency or integrity of the paint left would be a miracle !. If you were reflecting back an image then you would have a point . I imagine this film is every bit as reflective as any of your previous adventures into reflective backings .

Mississippi i put the onus on you to disprove the reflective properties of mylar ! what percentage of light reflected back would you put it at ? if it even mattered that much !


Bruce .


Ps Mississippi did you forget dismissing people a while back when someone mentioned using first surface mirrors ? I remember you were telling people it was wasting money and time even talking about first surface ! and to add insult to injury you tried to humiliate someone by offering to sell him one out of your old rptv !. I hope you do not try to flog YOUR new formula of a reflective film as the best thing ever in a couple of months !!!

edit:
Sorry it sounds harsh ! but if you are able to dish it out then you should be able to receive it as well !! it just seems like another quick dismissal of anything that you are not imediately involved in !
but truth be known you are probably working on something like mylar right now ! it would be a lot easier for you to ship something that you could roll up instead of a thirty pound five by ten sheet of plexi !

Thanks for the backing Bruce, but to be fair I do not regard MississippiMans responses as very insulting. Basically they seem like a caveat to those hoping for a quick fix and a challenge to show him that it works. You do bring up a good point though that the reflectivity maybe absolutely fine for LF even if the mylar does not have the exact same opticaly qualities as a hard mirror (this is the difference between reflectivity and refraction).

In the spirit of this forum I thus intend to order this mylar and to attach it to a backerboard. I wil then cover that with a piece of cheap clear plexi and take a picture of it for you all to judge. I bet it is about as close to a mirror as anyone could realistically want. I am also thinking that the plexi is potentially of significant value to LF and that a directly painted FS mirror may not be best for all projectors. From my understanding of the design it seems to me that the plexi acts like a fiberoptic material where light is repeatedly bounced around between its surfaces. This essentially provides a luminous space that cannot be recreated by paint directly on a reflective surface. You can mimick this effect with a flashlight and piece of plexi or glass in a dark room by shining the light into the sides or surface and looking at the glowing edges. This effect may theoretically cause some small cost to contrast (though the pictures on this site do not suggest it).

Another potential advantage of a modular design with a seperate mirror reflector and topcoated plexi screen is that one might be able to better control the quality of the topcoated screen. One should be able to shine a light through the clear plexi to determine if topcoats are consistent and of proper opacity. This cannot be done in designs where a plexi mirror is used or where silver metallic is applied before topcoating because those reflective surfaces are opaque.

Anyhow, these are just some more cheap ideas and unproven concepts. I strongly encourage anyone looking for a definitive solution to try the proven MM, Superplex or LF designs else they be heart broken. Unless of course they would like to try something new...sort of like what MississippiMan, CMRA and others do (just razzing you MissMan).

cheers,
fishshtick

Here is a website that sells a whole range of mylar sheeting products, including a 7 mil sheet for those who want to splurge (this is pretty stiff stuff). I still think that 2 mil would be fine. They sell the mylar (Dupont) in rolls with widths up to 56" and from 10' to 100'


http://www.mirrorsheeting.com/


I did some more research on metallized mylar and it is actually an alimunim deposition or layering product. It really is a mirror. It is of optical quality and can be of exactly equal to a quality glass mirror (when purchased from a good source - different manufacturers metallize the base polyester sheeting made by Dupont). Its metal content is proven by its use in the electronics industry (capacitors etc) as a layered conductor. Below are links showing mylar mirrors in action.

This link is for a mylar mirror for use by those CRT rear projection folks for reflecting the image to a larger screen above the projector.

http://www.cssautomation.com/AV/trip...cialmirror.htm


This link is to a scientific paper on mylar used to create a stereoscopic mirror that can be distorted for focusing properties (this is probably not run of the mil mylar - pun intended). Scroll to the color picture of their mirror.

http://vis4d.ncms.org/3639a-15.pdf

This is a sort of cool picture a guy took of a reflection in a cheap mylar ballon.

http://mirrorproject.com/mirror/recent/?id=18759


Here is another high end projection system using a mylar mirror. In this case they indicate that their mylar is superior to a glass mirror.

http://cave.ncsa.uiuc.edu/mylarmirrors.html

Here is a portable mirror based on mylar. Again, they indicate that it is superior to glass (and they charge for it!).

http://www.alvas.com/mirrors.html

Finally, there is no picture or link but Da-Lite (yes the projection screen manufacturer) sells mylar mirrors for rear projection systems.


The point being...metallized mylar is a mirror and it can be of just as high quality or higher quality than a glass mirror (even a first surface mirror). Just like glass or plexi mirrors, mylar mirror quality varies but again, the quality range is probably negligible for homemade projector screens.

I just did a quick test with my crappy mylar safety blanket behind a piece of plexi glass. It gave a comparable result to the balloon link above but was more wrinkled (because the blanket is sold folded and is extremely thin). If one is not too anal about wrinkles (which *may* have little influence on LF screens) they could probably make do with such a material ($3.99). I think I'll spring for a $15.00 roll of 2 mil mylar (wrinkle free). I am thinking now that one could simply tape and fold the mylar over a backer board or even tape it to the wall or plexi screen near the edges if one plans to have a border around their screen.

I admit this is not definitive research (I couldn't detailed specs for light reflectivity off the Dupont site) or a working projection screen, but I think I have shown pretty convincingly that this stuff could act as a cheap mirror. The next question is how to implement it.

cheers,
Fishshtick

Not to belabor the point, but this is pretty funny. This guy made a 10' parabolic mirror from a satellite dish and metallized mylar. It will heat a focused object to 1500 F. Think of the science fair projects you could make with your left over mylar.

You can find more details on the link at the bottom of the mylar sales page from my last message: http://www.mirrorsheeting.com/

Clearly this guy has come up with a good way to attach the mylar to a surface - a parabolic one no-less.

cheers,
fishshtick

Great links. Thanks!

Fishshtick,

Do you have ideas on how to keep the mylar sheet flat against the plexi glass? (This would apply mostly for the middle of the sheet). I would imagine this would be the biggest challenge in your design. If you put a small curve in the screen it might assist in keeping the middle of the screen flat against the mylar.

From your idea so far, it seems you plan on attaching the mylar to a flat surface (wall, masonite board, etc.) which could be accomplished using glue. But now you have to attach the plexi flat against the mylar and you can't use glue there without diminishing the mirror effect of the mylar. This might not matter, as to your suggestion as to how much reflection is actually required to get a "good" result. The small air gaps you might end up in the middle of the screen between the plexi and mylar may not be that big of a deal either. Who knows!

If the plexi is not required (aka First Surface Mirror) then your idea would be very simple to implement (besides the difficulty in getting the correct amount of paint on it). We need to see what kind of results FSM Fusion screens give compared to regular light fusion mirrors. MM any news on that?

Darren

DHunt,
I'm banking on this not being a big problem, but the experiments waits to be done. I am still thinking plexi LF is the way to go.

Indeed, for my LF screen I am first going to try not even gluing the mylar to a backer, but just hang it behind the plexi (tape the corners to the wall or to the plexi before mounting it). This stuff is not heavy and 2 mil or heavier should hang pretty well without major wrinkles. Static electricity might even cause the plexi and mylar to stick together. This installation requires a frame to conceal the edges a bit. I plan to use a four-sided black molding frame to compression fit all four sides of my plexi to the wall without any glue (and to mask the image). This should pretty much eliminate any bowing from top to bottom or side to side and effectively squish the plexi against the mylar. I bet there are dozens of other solutions.

If this stuff can be glued well to a flat surface (one of my previous posts demonstrated that guy secured it to a parabolic surface!) and have paint adhere to it then really FS Light fusion could become really cheap. I am also anxious to find out MississippiMans test results.

cheers,
fishshtick

Nevermore. (.....I hate Crow Pudding)

Fishstick,
Ok, it looks like you have hit upon something viable. The research you've done in a couple days certainly bears out the hypothesis (...and sort of validates some of my comments as far as researching first well....) and also goes to prove the old adage, "If your not willing to try something new, your condemned to live in the past." Ouch.

That shouldn't be a hard lesson for me to retain, but I did let my own opinions blind me to the potential of Mylar sheeting. I really thought you were talking about "Film", so that was what I based most of my comments around.

Best excuse I can come up with at the moment.

The end all is that you yourself are excited about the basic concept, and through your own efforts have explored a alternative to Plexi Mirrors. CMRA did likewise when he made efforts to improve on the basic SM/MM on a Board / Wall concept. So it appears that we both just might have to go Atkins to reduce our seat dimensions so as to make room for your settling in to a place beside us a one responsible for carrying the Light Fusion torch to others.

But.........., now that the potential is there, I'm sure Marcosyscom is elated at the prospect of affordable creating a 60" x 96" First Surface mirror out of Mylar over MDF for his coveted Rear projection project. And likewise, I see the ability to make First Surface Light Fusion a reality at far less expense than the Plastic Suppliers would have us accept.

I created the first FSLF screen, and the results were astounding. But depression over the cost and availability of the FS mirror dampened my enthusiasm to the point that it seemed to stifle any real desire to post images of an application VERY FEW would / could aspire to.

So I must first ask you understanding, forbearance, and that you accept any apology you feel warranted should I have come across as berating or dismissive. Then, after flossing all those Black Feathers out of my teeth, I want to thank you for persevering and sharing what promises to be a potentially great improvement to the entire equation.

.....and from a newbee, at that!

So............, let's get going. But move fast, for I'm well known for not letting any cobwebs form on an idea by putting it into practice in a real world application. I just reach right out and "Steal that Thunder!" Wanna be first? Bedder get crackin'.

Once again, more thanks than I can express.

Below is a high ambient shot taken on a LF Mirror screen.

I've been a lurker on this thread for sometime and I'm finally gearing up for painting a LF for my IF5700. I was all set to custom order a 5x9 acrylic mirror (@ ~$200 with shipping) but this Mylar idea has me intrigued. Before I get blasted let me say this is only a thought that I have not yet "DIY'ed" it, but could you not take the Mylar and stretch mount it to a frame with staples a la blackout cloth and then paint with MM per the LF methods? No plexi would be required and seems like this would be a nifty, cheap, FSLF screen? Has anyone worked with Mylar enough to know if it will stretch or fold to be mounted in such a manner? What is the best thickness (seems thicker the better, 7mil)? What do you guys think?

Darren,

A few FSLF screenies have been posted already, and the results do in fact exceed regular LF significantly in a few key areas. Contrast as opposed to brightness is improved, and sharpness of image was better, dispite the FSLF screen I tested being only 1 day old.

It's now almost a month old, so I do in fact plan to haul it up out of storage in the extra Horse stall very soon and put a 50-HD image up on it again.

Meanwhile, I have to go check out the links that Fishstick posted.

"Fishstick?" Dem's fightin' wurds hears in in Nemo country.

Below is a FSLF image. I'v tried once to send several X-tra High Res SS to Macrosyscom but my own server has prevented me from attaching such large (3.5 meg ea.) files. Gotta get around that! So...., below is a full Res. Shot, cropped to AVS limits, with the original downsized to illustrate. Original image is 2400 x 1800 pixels Please note that the original was taken from at least 9' from the screen

MississippiMan,
thanks for the creds, but I may still be the one pulling feathers from my teeth. This is all unproven.

As far as getting my butt in gear to complete a screen - that is likely a month or more away. I can probably get mylar behind plexi next week or get some glued to a cheap backerboard. However, I leave for Trinidad in a little over a week for some field work and then I am getting married in mid-July. Furthermore...I have no projector yet. Thus, don't wait for me guys...I got my glory by getting MississippiMan to fold. My hat is off to anyone who can get a mylar screen up and running - LF or FSLF. Just be sure to name Mylar Light Fusion screens as "MyLF" technology in my honor (hehehe - see American Pie if you don't get it).

Gstorr,
what you propose might work. Who's to say? I suspect the mylar may rip if you try to punch holes in it or pull too hard on staples, but maybe not. Clearly some folks have worked out ways to stretch this stuff across a frame (see my earlier links). If you want to try using mylar for a FS mirror design is suspect that the frame mounting might be too flimsy and cause the MM to flake off. However, I bet it would be easy enough to glue the mlyar sheeting to a rigid backerboard like sheetrock, masonite or MDF. This would provide a very solid surface for subsequent painting and mounting.

cheers,
fishshtick

Seems to me that 3-M spray adhesive, applied lightly as one laid the mylar out would be the easiet and quickest. That assuming the thickness of the stuff is great enough that one did not have to worry about it bunching at the contact point.

Wallpaper paste, mixed soup thin would be my next suggestion. Inexpensive, applicable by brush, 4' "Fine Camel hair" for a smooth coat, plenty of leeway to adjust after contact, drys hard.

Elmers Wood Glue follows up. Already the right consistancy, it too speads smooth with a brush, as at least 4 times the workability as the spray, 1/2 as much as the paste, and will cost far less than the 3-M, and about twice that of the paste.

Of course, all of the above are not to be considered for a Plexi-LF. Boys & Girls, this got started about using Mylar on the rear of clear plexi, but if the product does as claimed, cost as little as stated, and can be applied to less expensive substrates, (...or a wall !!) the anything else other than a First Surface application would be just darn stewped!

MississippiMan,
Do you really think that FS designs are best for every projector or taste? From what I understand there may be a tradeoff beteen FS and Plexi designs. I would expect plexi designs to provide a more luminous effect (perhaps even better saturation) caused by the light space within the plexi. The plexi probably acts a bit like the fiberoptic effect. A reflective surface on one side of the plexi and a white surface on the other should cause light to really bounce around and thus have more chances to escape back through the screen surface and to your eyes (hence more a luminous image, particularly in lighter shades and bright colors). Because light disperses a bit in the plexi this reduces contrast a bit as well as definition. Loss of a bit of fine definition, may be good for projectors with slight pixelation issues. A first surface mirror design skips the luminous space and thus should not bounce as much light internally. This should provide better contrast and detail, but I would expect it to give a bit less of an impression of luminosity and saturation. They may also show pixelation a bit more (but this could be corrected ith a slight defocus or proper viewing distance). I think side by side image comparison of FS and Plexi designs will be the most illuminating . Are any such comparison pictures available?

If FS is definitely better than I might as well save the money I was going to spend on plexi. Can you refer me to any posts that have discussed the physics of the two designs...as I probably dragging up old material.

cheers,
fishshtick

I've read these clever posts. Methinks its worth a try. Heck, what are you out? BTW, at that price you could buy one and cut it up for testing, ie, alternate solutions.
Caveats? Will the mylar lay perfectly flat? How well will Latex adhere to it? Will painting the surface introduce unwanted aberrations?
Lead the way, amigo.

Very old indeed. But it's expected of all newbees to want to be led directly to the Gold mine of info that lies buried within AVS's backyard..


Starting off...................................*

Do I really think that FS is...........etc? Why do people read into my statements such intentions? Then they ask me if I'd be so myopic to think such? Truth is, MMud alone is much more a Panacea than LF. If you have a great PJ, w/HD res. and 1500:1 CR or better, MMud is all that's really needed to satisfy. Many say ANY white surface is as good but that's bunk fer sure. LF is even better because it not only adds the contrast enhancing properties of the reflective mirror, it also adds SDE/artifact absorption tendencies and a color correctness that comes naturally to excellent white surfaces. Ask me again, and I'll say again, YES, for almost any who could aspire to create one, or have it created for them, there is IMHO no other screen under $2500.00 that can come close to doing what LF does in all directions. Nada. And those that do come close always have a particular sore point, such a viewing cone, graininess, and EXPENSE!

When one considers that such performance comes at a $200.00 & under price, less spraying equipment, and $500.00 tops if you buy the spray gear, it cannot be anything else BUT the best solution to any who can have a fixed screen, want the best performance possible for the very least amount spent, and who have the gumption to get off the couch and make one themselves.

It must be good. At least 2 individuals have started building mail/web order businesses around similar "clones' of the SM/MM concept. Imitation is the sincerest form of flatery, but it's laughable because MMud is itself a adaptive clone of GOO.

Are there easier solutions that are perfectly acceptable for others to try? Sure. Can you by a screen for $500-600.00 and get a good image from $1000.00 to $2500.00 PJ? Yeah. But that's not the objective of this thread, or the mind-think of most DIY'ers that lurk on Screens. Nope, they want the best results for the least, but "No Compromises" please. That is why I say LF serves to be able to satisfy a far larger group of enthusiasts, including the most critical of Videophiles, if given the chance.

let everyone else with the tendency to do so, go shopping around and follow the crowd down that well traveled path of compacency.

Fishshook, your suggestion isn't new, but it comes at a time where CMRA & I both have been wondering; "What next?" That the product your suggesting is of a thicker, more 'working friendly' nature makes it more a possibility than just an idea.

ANY Layered application based on a highly reflective substrate covered with a "special" white Top Coat will out of necessity have to have at least 3 layers of MMud to effect the right combination of absorptive, reflective properties. Those same layers, while by no means 1/8" thick, still offer all the best qualities of the original SM/MM wall screen, but with the addition of a significant increase, nay, an almost exponential increase in the specific beneficial effects described above that are unique to the Mirror Screen. Brightness is way up, but without the Glow and it's color shifting, however slight. Detail is 'snappish', even with a DLP, not a LCD, and colors are the most vibrant and smoothly textured that I have ever experienced.

Science? Theres been a lot. DHunt is the Resident SM/MM to LF historian and can probably (...and WILL!) correct any dated misinformation contained within the schooling below. look to him for acopy of LF history, and a guide to most of the more important posts.


History 101 (...didn't I just do this?)

10-21-03
14' diagonal Silver Metallic / MississippiMud "LAYERED" Wall screen painted in New Jersey
Per *sic* Specific wavelengths of Light penetrate Top Coat, reacts to Silver Metallic in a 'contrast enhancing' manner, re-penetrates and combines with light reflecting directly off Top Coat. Very little extra distance is traveled by the penetrating Light, but a difference in depth there is indeed. Results: Vibrant, high contrast image, with 3-Dimensional characteristic on any applicable surface. "Roll" intensive process, but easy to ascertain how much Top Coat to apply. Other drawbacks are applicable surfaces that are smooth enough to utilize as a paintable surface. How to wet sand rougher surfaces to prepare for base, and wet-sanding between coats to achieve a smooth texture becomes sticking points. Whiners lament about their lack of rolling. sanding skills.
Do a search of my posts dated between November and January and you'll find plenty of info & pics.

11-21-03
Clear Plexi coated w/ Silver Metallic base & MMud face proposed by CMRA. MM scoffs at first, then relents, realizing CMRA's main effort is to find a consistently smooth surface to apply paint to, minimizing the need to sand to smooth. Joint agreement by MM & CMRA to try a layered approach, painting SM on rear & MMud on front.
Samples sprayed by MM & CMRA, tested, approved.
Full size example proves out to provide a obvious illumination effect. Light is illuminating the 1/8" space. No blurring or shifting of the image is observed. Contrast enhancement is exceptional, making CMRA's lowly Z1 with 500:1 CR perform like a $5000 DLP.

Many cry foul. Accuse CMRA of doctoring photos.

Still a pain to paint, requiring specialized spraying equipment. Gains seem problematical when compared to additional expense & effort, but no denying a significant improvement. People want to know about the science. We don't need no stinkin' science!

12-something
Lazy ol' CMRA who hates messin' wit SM finds inexpensive 88"x44' Wardrobe mirror and applies MMud. SuperDeluxe is born. Same pricible as SuperPlex, but now light reflectivity is much greater. Quote CMRA: "This Puppy GLOWS!" Yes indeed it does, but with the Z1, not so obvious overtones of orangeish shadows around flestones are visible to the overly discerning eye. What a shame one has to try hard to find something wrong. Most tellingly, the aberration would'nt have been noticed at all had not the quality of CMRA's SS's been so exceptional, due to the z1's clarity of image. When in motion, the effect isn't discernible at all to most everyone else, and noticed by only a few in SS's. Added benefits are a reduction of SDE and pixelation, as well as modest artifacts, creating a smooth, yet detailed image not found on conventional LARGE CRT Tubes or Plasmas.

Many cry foul. Accuse CMRA of doctoring photos. War is waged. We win.

1-12-04 & beyond
Reasonably affordable 5'x8' Plastic Mirrors are found. MM promptly paint 3 screens, showing 2 in different Home Shows, and installs first LF screen in a Client's home. Light Fusion becomes the official name of Plexi-Mirror / MMud. MMan finds a 6' x 8' Plexi-Mirror on Maui, paints that as well. Posts Pics. Installs 5 more LF's between late Jan. and March. 3-16-04 MM goes to Atlantic City Expo Center with 87" x 48" LF and complete Invisible Stereo HT set-up contained within a 10' x 12' enclosure. Wows East Coast Builders Association members. 4-17-04 MM goes to Canuck Shootout. Paints LF screen in 1-1/2' days "OUTSIDE" in Canadian wind. Shows it the following day, fresh, untried and uncured against the best screens MFGs' have to offer. Seems to do spectacularly well and is acclaimed a great success by many present. "Officially" places 4 th on a 11 screen venue. Not so strangely, LF causes far more disquiet among those who sell screens than it's 4 th place standing would seem to indicate.

MM adds insult to injury by exhibiting a basic Silver paint called "SilverScreen" by Behr, that also surprises many, but winds up not even being included in any ranking. Too easy...too cheap.....; too threatening? look to the "SilverScreen" thread to find many Happy Campers.

Well that's all in the past now, and it's for you Fishstuck, to decide for yourself based on what you have read, what you can dig up out of hoary old posts 2-4 months old, and what opinions you can conjure up by those who have "Been there, Done that." through most of the last 4-5 month.

Their opinions are likely to be more balanced, certainly less biased, but probably no less effusive about how much better imagery seems to be with Light Fusion. Ask me, and you know how I'll respond. Go with whatever variant you choose, from SM/MM up to FSLF, and you'll see broad ranging results you cannot see anywhere else on any one Mfg. screen.

It will happen, And you'll be glad. If we are all lucky, the Mylar will usher in the opportunity for many more to attempt LF than can do so at present, and that, Fishsoup, is what DIY is really all about.

MississippiMam





PS. In the time it took to write this, i see another post has come into the thread. Now I wonder...........?