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Traverse City, MI - HDTV - Page 47

post #1381 of 1760
aeblank:

Same problem here just west of Wellston, 15mi from Harrietta.

Only getting a 1-5 signal today.

Also on ch 50:
WPBN must first get all the purchase and authorizations from the FCC together,get the
ch 47 designated as Cadillac/Traverse City. It already was, but have to do it again.
Get 47 up and running before they can do anything about ch 50 at Harietta. i.e. They
have to get Traverse City as principle city of operation before doing anything with 50.
They can't do much of anything til they get all the legal things done on getting ch 47
as their principle site.
Re: ch 50, this is licensed as a LD not a DT, thus they can't get anymore power than
what they have the CP for. 15kw ERP.
Cadillac Broadcasting still hasn't given up the license for ch 47 yet.

In other response to a question on WWTV location and elevation:
It's location is between M-115 and Dighton in Osceola county.
The elevation there is 1701 feet AMSL. The highest point is approx. 200' N.E.of
station, I think at 1725'. This according to NAD27 maps which were used when they
first built there. This highest spot is right next to the main road, thus couldn't put
tower there.
I was engineer there in the late 60's early 70's.

Jack
post #1382 of 1760
Wellston.....My parents live out by Big M.

Thanks for the WPBN info. Don't know how long all that takes (do you have a guess?), but it doesn't look good for it being anytime soon. Sure seems like they were caught with their pants down with the conversion.
post #1383 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeblank View Post

Has WPBN in Harrietta changed anything of late? I've been getting them just fine for the last month+ (?) and now in the last week it's been cutting out and is unwatchable.

Anybody know if they'll have channel 50 in Harrietta up and running before fall? I'm getting the "I can't miss my shows" threats.


What VHF antenna are you using now?
post #1384 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesickstan View Post

What VHF antenna are you using now?

one of those Wineguard omni-directional jobs.
Not that you'd have a reason to remember, but I unhooked my second UHF, started using my uhf/vhf combiner, and randomly spun my VHF all at the same time. Suddenly I got everything I could hope for (PBS, NBC/ABC, and I always had CBS/FOX).

I haven't tried channel 29 yet to see if that's better.

I could get a bigger antenna and I could move them out of the attic, etc. But with all the changes going on, it seems somewhat pointless. Especially given the 17 pallets of retaining wall blocks that I have to put into place.
post #1385 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeblank View Post

one of those Wineguard omni-directional jobs.
Not that you'd have a reason to remember, but I unhooked my second UHF, started using my uhf/vhf combiner, and randomly spun my VHF all at the same time. Suddenly I got everything I could hope for (PBS, NBC/ABC, and I always had CBS/FOX).

I haven't tried channel 29 yet to see if that's better.

I could get a bigger antenna and I could move them out of the attic, etc. But with all the changes going on, it seems somewhat pointless. Especially given the 17 pallets of retaining wall blocks that I have to put into place.

Ok, thanks. I looked back over the posts, but couldn't find what VHF antenna you have. I tried a Winegard MS2000 saucer a couple years ago and it was useless for me. I'm 10 miles from Harrietta and, at the time, 7 analog was full of ghosts. I exchanged that for a CM 4228 and even being a UHF antenna, it did a better job with 7. Looks like you have some work to do. Hopefully, WPBN is on the fast track. I see WFQX was just got the grant to boost channel 32 from 175 kW to 200 kW.
post #1386 of 1760
I visited my parents in Ithaca earlier this week and am relieved to find they are very satisfied with the post-digital conversion channel selection. They have an omnidirectional Winegard MS2000 antenna and a Channel Master CM-7000 tuner that I got for them. The antenna is about 35 feet from the ground and their house is near the highest point in town. I was apprehensive about them getting any digital channels other than the Flint/Saginaw market. The only analog channels they got in clear with no ghosting was 12, 66, and 49. So I was astonished this weekend to see the wide-variety of channels they actually get:

Flint/Saginaw:
WJRT 12 (100% signal); WNEM 5(22) (100%); WDCQ 19(15) (98%); WEYI/WBSF 25(30) (100%); WBSF/WEYI 46 (95%); WAQP 49(48) (100%); WSMH 66(16) (100%)

Lansing/Jackson:
WLNS 6(36) (65%); WILX 10 (100%); WLAJ 53(51) (20%); WKAR 23(40) (20%)

Traverse City/Cadillac:
WWTV/WFQX 9 (100%); WCMU 14(26) (100%)

Grand Rapids/Kalamazoo:
WXMI 17(19) (20%); WZPX 43(44) (20%)

They typically lose WKAR daily around noon and get it back before prime time. WXMI, WZPX, and WLAJ will give a clear picture half the time, but there were times when I found them unviewable. I'm happy they were able to get at least two solid choices of every network!
post #1387 of 1760
Also, while I visited my parents, I found WCMU 14.1 was broadcasting some animated test screen in HD. I forgot whether it was 720p or 1080i. I first noticed it Monday night a few minutes before nightly shutdown. It was also on the next day.

I seem to remember someone on this board mentioning this being broadcast on 14.1 from time to time. However, if this is a first, here's hoping WCMU is up soon in HD!
post #1388 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDNomad09 View Post

I visited my parents in Ithaca earlier this week and am relieved to find they are very satisfied with the post-digital conversion channel selection. They have an omnidirectional Winegard MS2000 antenna and a Channel Master CM-7000 tuner that I got for them. The antenna is about 35 feet from the ground and their house is near the highest point in town. I was apprehensive about them getting any digital channels other than the Flint/Saginaw market. The only analog channels they got in clear with no ghosting was 12, 66, and 49. So I was astonished this weekend to see the wide-variety of channels they actually get:

Flint/Saginaw:
WJRT 12 (100% signal); WNEM 5(22) (100%); WDCQ 19(15) (98%); WEYI/WBSF 25(30) (100%); WBSF/WEYI 46 (95%); WAQP 49(48) (100%); WSMH 66(16) (100%)

Lansing/Jackson:
WLNS 6(36) (65%); WILX 10 (100%); WLAJ 53(51) (20%); WKAR 23(40) (20%)

Traverse City/Cadillac:
WWTV/WFQX 9 (100%); WCMU 14(26) (100%)

Grand Rapids/Kalamazoo:
WXMI 17(19) (20%); WZPX 43(44) (20%)

They typically lose WKAR daily around noon and get it back before prime time. WXMI, WZPX, and WLAJ will give a clear picture half the time, but there were times when I found them unviewable. I'm happy they were able to get at least two solid choices of every network!


Did you get their antenna from Denny? (http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/) He's a good egg. He sold me the MS2000 I had and then exchanged it for the CM 4228 when it didn't work for me. He said he's sold a lot of the saucers down there and they work great as it's flat in that part of the state for miles and miles.
post #1389 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesickstan View Post

Did you get their antenna from Denny? (http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/) He's a good egg. He sold me the MS2000 I had and then exchanged it for the CM 4228 when it didn't work for me. He said he's sold a lot of the saucers down there and they work great as it's flat in that part of the state for miles and miles.

As a matter of fact, Denny did sell and install the antenna. I was skeptical about the saucer. As you'd expect low VHF channels didn't get much help from the setup, so 5 and 6 were always snowy, but watchable. They also had a hum bar problem they could never resolve on 25 and 66 during the analog days. The DTV conversion solved all of those problems. My parents dropped their satellite subscription about a year ago, so this is all they watch.
post #1390 of 1760
My uncle emailed me to say "something's up with channel 7 on vhf--much higher signal strength today than i've ever had. haven't checked for a while, but it's different for
sure."

I found it interesting, given my issues of late with WPBN. He's between Wellston and Manistee. I'm not at home to check/confirm though. Any thoughts?
post #1391 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeblank View Post

My uncle emailed me to say "something's up with channel 7 on vhf--much higher signal strength today than i've ever had. haven't checked for a while, but it's different for
sure."

I found it interesting, given my issues of late with WPBN. He's between Wellston and Manistee. I'm not at home to check/confirm though. Any thoughts?

Temperature drop, less wind, less interference from WOOD.
post #1392 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDNomad09 View Post

Also, while I visited my parents, I found WCMU 14.1 was broadcasting some animated test screen in HD. I forgot whether it was 720p or 1080i. I first noticed it Monday night a few minutes before nightly shutdown. It was also on the next day.

I noticed both WCML(24) 6.1 and WCMV (17) 27-1 were broadcasting a test signal today (Thursday 8/20) in 720P. A blue/green wavy pattern with a WCMU logo. At the bottom of the screen was a narrow band that appeared to be the regular PBS/WCMU programming.
post #1393 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by CVX_GEEK View Post

I noticed both WCML(24) 6.1 and WCMV (17) 27-1 were broadcasting a test signal today (Thursday 8/20) in 720P. A blue/green wavy pattern with a WCMU logo. At the bottom of the screen was a narrow band that appeared to be the regular PBS/WCMU programming.

That's what I saw. Fingers crossed!
post #1394 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsthemultipath! View Post

A

The one bit of TV history I would like to know is why WWTV, WGTQ and WTOM have their transmitters so far East (Goetzville, Goetzville and ESE of Cheboygan, respectively), sending a lot of RF over Lake Huron and unpopulated locals in the East (but nowhere near East enough to serve Sudbury, the only population to the east, since Elliot Lake did not yet exist in the 1950's!). A site a little NE of St. Ignace would have been much better, slightly stronger in SSM, and far better in places like Charlevoix and Petoskey.

Great point. My only guess is that the ridge in the north central lower peninsula (vanderbilt-gaylord-grayling area) blocks signals from Cadillac/TC to Alpena. Alpena only has CBS and PBS. Cable companies probably rebroadcast WGTQ and WTOM. So, Maybe their thinking was to get Rogers City and Alpena better. But, you are 100% right. Look at a topographic map. Find "Rockview" just southwest of Pickford and NE of St. Ignace. A bright engineer would have put WWUP, WTOM, and WGTQ there. It's on a ridge and would have a much better signal into Petoskey and still cover the Soo very well. W43CM the old FOX translator was parked there for a while. Maybe land in Goetzville was cheap too... WHO KNOWS? Kind of idiotic planning, I agree.

But, I don't get the point of somewhat neglecting Emmet, Benzie and Lelenau counties so they can get Montcalm, Oceana and Newaygo which should be covered by Grand Rapids.

I empathize with the folks up there getting the screw job. I used to think they just screwed the Eastern UP. The Eastern UP finally has FOX now, just no PBS after analog 6 went out.
post #1395 of 1760
At this moment 27.1 is broadcasting in HD!
post #1396 of 1760
Oops, screen is black again.
post #1397 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesickstan View Post

Temperature drop, less wind, less interference from WOOD.

My reception sucks now. Something changed, it had to have. The weather is cooler again, especially at night, and I can't get it (7.1 and 7.2) for diddly.

Anybody have a timeframe for UHF 50 being in Harrietta?
post #1398 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeblank View Post

My reception sucks now. Something changed, it had to have. The weather is cooler again, especially at night, and I can't get it (7.1 and 7.2) for diddly.

Anybody have a timeframe for UHF 50 being in Harrietta?

Flux capacitor not fluxing? I wonder if channel 50 at 15 kW is going to be much better for you? I had some success with my omni "saucer" antenna by rotating it, even though it's omnidirectional. Go figure...
post #1399 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesickstan View Post

Flux capacitor not fluxing? I wonder if channel 50 at 15 kW is going to be much better for you? I had some success with my omni "saucer" antenna by rotating it, even though it's omnidirectional. Go figure...

My setup was working great, then it tanked to unwatchable. I didn't touch anything. Haven't even been in the attic. I did spin my omni to get the reception I'm getting--so I've heard of that one. Omnidirectional anteannas are probably like the non-directional military tires--as crappy forwards as reverse.

Seems pointless to get a bigger/better VHF, given the change to 50 UHF. I'm just stuck for now, I guess.

I gotta believe that 15kW is going to have a better chance than 500W. Of course, RF is not always predictable (at least by me).
post #1400 of 1760
Don't know if anyone saw, but WWTV is asking for a fill-in translator on channel 40 in Traverse City. 15 kW ND.

- Trip
post #1401 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeblank View Post

My setup was working great, then it tanked to unwatchable. I didn't touch anything. Haven't even been in the attic. I did spin my omni to get the reception I'm getting--so I've heard of that one. Omnidirectional anteannas are probably like the non-directional military tires--as crappy forwards as reverse.

Seems pointless to get a bigger/better VHF, given the change to 50 UHF. I'm just stuck for now, I guess.

I gotta believe that 15kW is going to have a better chance than 500W. Of course, RF is not always predictable (at least by me).

As I understand it, the higher a channel number, the more power is needed for the same coverage of a lower numbered channel. UHF requires more power than VHF. When FOX was on 47 at 500 kW, they never broke up for me compared to NBC on 50 at 78 kW, which was more miss than hit. FOX's tower in Kal. is more than 10 miles farther away than NBC's in TC from me, too. Have you check TVFool.com recently? Looks like they updated their database and show 50 in Harrietta, now, even though it's not operational. I just checked my location and it doesn't look good from 10 miles away.
post #1402 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Don't know if anyone saw, but WWTV is asking for a fill-in translator on channel 40 in Traverse City. 15 kW ND.

- Trip

Cool. Musical transmitters. For the locals, that tower is on Cedar Run Road just past Harris at the curve. It's one of Terry Martin's. I've always liked his company name... Northern Tower Erection Co.
post #1403 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesickstan View Post

Cool. Musical transmitters. For the locals, that tower is on Cedar Run Road just past Harris at the curve. It's one of Terry Martin's. I've always liked his company name... Northern Tower Erection Co.

Idiots (WWTV). That's what you get for putting a main transmitter so far south in the market. Yeah, they can serve Midland with the VHF 9 but can't crack Charlevoix. Where's the population center? Cadillac/TVC/Gaylord/Houghton Lake right? Why not put the transmitter to have maximum coverage over those towns? WWUP should increase power to reach Petoskey better.

BTW, what's the point of WPBN on UHF 50 @ 15 kW ERP? Why don't they just put a 300 kW (or greater) station there at Harietta and quit playing games? That's what's going to happen at some point anyhow.
post #1404 of 1760
It doesn't seem very fair to call WWTV idiots. These transmitters (WWTV & WPBN) were placed in 1954, long before there was any thought of color TV, much less digital TV. Both served their markets just fine until the digital switch. Both stations seem to be working hard to fill in the unforseen digital VHF gaps at great expense to their companies.
post #1405 of 1760
WWTV has always had a problem with viewers in the northern hilly areas along the Lake Michigan coast. A low power translator is not going fix the problem
post #1406 of 1760
New applications for LD in the past 3 days:
These are max 15kw
Ch.
38 Heritage Bcst For Traverse City
39 Cadillac Telecasting For Traverse City
40 Heritage Bcst For Traverse City
40 Roy E.Henderson For Cadillac
42 Cadillac Telecasting For Traverse City
43 Heritage Bcst For Traverse City
43 Roy E.Henderson For Traverse City
43 West Cent.Mich.Media Ministries For Cadillac

Some of these appllications are dated within 2 days, with Roy Henderson
(NEW ULM Broadcasting) Ulm,Texas,having the edge.
This seems to by Roy's new adventure into television, he's been mostly
AM/FM radio ownership. WBNZ,WOUF,WCUZ,WLDR in Michigan, 7 others in Texas.

The race is on !

Also a DN for a ch 23 allocation NE of E.Jordan in Antrim county.
DN is a new allocation and it was "granted". Have to find out what
that's all about.

Lots to ponder over here.

PS A tv station can have only "one" main full power transmitter
in it's DMA. All others (translators) have to be LD 15kw max.
Last I read there is no limit on number of LD's they can have.

This should be a blast!

Jack in Wellston
post #1407 of 1760
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonyLCD View Post

It doesn't seem very fair to call WWTV idiots. These transmitters (WWTV & WPBN) were placed in 1954, long before there was any thought of color TV, much less digital TV. Both served their markets just fine until the digital switch. Both stations seem to be working hard to fill in the unforseen digital VHF gaps at great expense to their companies.

Well, how smart is it to place a transmitter in an area that only covers 2/3 of your market 1/3 of 2 another markets? I don't see how any of those gaps were unforeseen. The early coverage maps show they do cover Midland but not Charlevoix. "Northern Michigan's News Leader" should cover Northern Michigan... at least I'd think so...
post #1408 of 1760
WWTV only covers 2/3rd of the market? Oh please. Missing a portion of Charlevoix and Emmet counties and the "hilly areas along the Lake Michigan coast" as the perpetually moody Falcon 7 says, hardly constitutes missing a third of the market. I doubt they would have been the prohibitive #1 sign on to sign off station book after book if they missed a third of the market. Beyond all that, now WWTV is also on full power 45 out of Vanderbilt which EASILY covers Charlevoix and Emmet counties. For this market size, all of the stations up here have done a pretty good job of rolling with the very expensive punches that the digital transition has provided.
post #1409 of 1760
Today 8-28-09 the FCC DA-09-1963
Has OK'd the change from ch 7 to 47, BUT there first must be
a comment period which is 25 days in length, after the notice has been
published in the Federal Register.

ch 47 500kw ERP at 393meters.

But it's going to be another 25day wait after it's published in the register.
Providing there is no other party interested in ch 47. If there is, the FCC
will assign a different channel. (so sayeth the document).

So, things are moving along on it.

Jack in Wellston
post #1410 of 1760
Excerpts From FCC yesterday 8-28-09


NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULEMAKING DA-09-1963

Adopted: August 27, 2009 Released: August 28, 2009

Comment Date: [15 days after date of publication in the Federal Register]
Reply Comment Date: [25 days after date of publication in the Federal Register]

We believe that Barrington’s proposal warrants consideration. DTV channel 47 can be substituted for DTV channel 7 at Traverse City, Michigan, as proposed, in compliance with the principal community coverage requirements of Section 73.625(a) of the Commission’s rules, at coordinates 44-44-53 N. and 85-04-08 W. In addition, we find that this channel change meets the technical requirements set forth in Sections 73.616 and 73.623 of the Commission’s rules. We propose to substitute DTV channel 47 for DTV channel 7 for station WPBN-TV at Traverse City with the following specifications:
City and State DTV Channel DTV Power (kW) Antenna HAAT (m)
Traverse City, Michigan 47 500 393
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Things are moving right along.

Jack
Wellston
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