Why Not Bose? - Page 7  

I hope to someday have regulars at my home theater. Maybe even groupies. :-)

I have F1 fronts, C1 centre, B2 sides, and B1 rears. They're not the cat's a$$ but for the pittance they cost, I think they're great. And they, along with my SVS subwoofer, were a good lesson for me in the physics of loudspeakers: to produce certain frequencies you have to move a certain amount of air; there's no getting around it. That's why the B1s are such a steal - they're only entry level bookshelves but they're built like tanks and can reach down to 60 Hz and below. Unless you've got satellites that can get near that range, no matter how good your sub is, your theatre's sound is going to suffer.

Cool, glad you like your new speakers. My sub isn't anything to write home about and I set it to about 130hz or 160hz. This puts out great bass in my opinion w/o being obnoxious or having the bass control the movie. I too agree that music thru satellites are not the best. I tried listening to a CD and it was just OK, nothing wonderful.

cool, and I apologize if I sounded like an ass. It wasnt personal, I just thought you post was a jab at some of people here.

I have a set of 301's that actually sound pretty good to me. They are the oldest series of 301's made, and I use them as satellites for my HT setup. I have sony's in front that sound really good too.

You know why else they sound good? They were $10. And the sony's were $5. So...

With a username of "subwoofer", your subwoofer should be something to write home about.

Subwoofer, just curious, what sub are you using? Also, when you say you set it to 130 hz or 160 hz, what do you mean by that?

hahaha, give me some time. I only have an average Polk 303 speaker that was practically free when I got my polk speakers. I'm now in the market for a sweet subwoofer but in my 12x13x15 (W x L x H), it seems to been extremely loud as it is.

See above post, and thats the crossover

Very funny thread.

I came in to work this morning to find an excited co-worker itching to tell me about the fantastic deal he'd gotten on his "Top of the Line" Bose Home Theater system.

Regular $3000 for $1500 -- fell off the truck.

I tried to explain to him that he could have paid full retail for a host of other speakers and gotten better sound. He doesn't get it though. Thinks I'm being a snob.

I remember when I was first looking to get into home theater and I was smitten by the Bose mystique. I went into the store where I have since made all my major HT purchases. I told the guy that I was comparing with Bose. He showed me basically intro PSB Alpha AV speakers paired with a Marrantz SR480 receiver that blew away the Bose for a fraction of the price.

It's funny though all the posts about the Bose 901's. I remember when I was a young man thinking that those speakers were just the cat's ass. What was it...8 4" woofers driven seperately in a package not much bigger than a bread box. I remember a friend of mine's father had a pair of them in the front of his room suspended from the ceiling by chains and I thought that was just the ultimate. My best friend though swore by his Cerwin Vega D-9's...exactly the opposite to the Bose...Huge Box with a 15" Woofer and a couple of 4 " mid ranges plus a tweeter. I wonder if either of them were actually any good.

Darren

I assume you mean that you've set the high-pass filter on your sub to 130 or 160 hz. What is the low-pass filter set to?

^no, the two dials on the sub are volume and crossover. I set the volume to about 50% and the crossover at around 130 hz. I'm not sure where you set the high pass or low pass filter

Timmu

The polk RM6700 sats cannot go down lower than 130 hz.
So I am guessing his subs crossover is set at 130 hz, if at 160 he would be missing any sounds in 130-160 hz range.

^I never know what anyone means by missing sound. Do you mean voices or noises in the song or movie or just bass of certain things on screen?

Also, if I get another sub or speakers, would I be able to set the high and low pass filters? I need some explaination on this one

This has probably been covered in this long thread already, but the reason many people are so critical of Bose speakers is that many of them do not and *cannot* produce certain frequencies. Sound is nothing more than vibrations in the air, at certain frequencies. Most humans only hear from about 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz or so. That's why you see so many speakers claiming that they are capable of reproducing frequencies in that range. If a speaker is not physically capable of reproducing frequencies in a certain range - say for example below 130 Hz - then when the program material to which you are listening, be it a CD, a DVD, the radio, etc., has sounds in it in that range, you simply will not hear them (i.e. you won't hear the deep rumble of an explosion in a movie).

Therefore, with your Polk speakers, for example, if you are using them with nothing else (with no subwoofer, for example), you simply will not hear any sound (bass) below 130 Hz. Since most of the LFE (Low Frequency Effects, or the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1) are in the 20 - 80 Hz range (and many newer movies contain bass information that actually goes down to the 15 and 10 Hz range), you're actually not hearing *anything at all* if you don't have speakers that can play down to that range.

What all of this means, and what is germane to the discussion over the last couple of days in this thread, is that if a speaker is inherently unable to play certain large ranges of frequencies (like several Bose products), it is *by definition* inferior.

Then there is the whole other discussion of subwoofers (which you'll find in several forums here and other places, like HT Spot). One might *think* one has a decent subwoofer and feel pleased with its sound, but it may not even be playing a whole, vital range of frequencies necessary to a true theatre experience - typically frequencies in the 15 - 40 Hz range, as most cheaper subs are lucky if they can even get down to below 40 Hz. On top of that, if your satellites can only play to about 130 Hz, you are getting *very* poor integration with your subwoofer, since any frequencies above 80 Hz are localizable (you can tell the sounds are coming from the sub and not the satellites, therefore making the listening experience artificial and more contrived). There are several threads on this too, which you can find with a search.

I'm not trying to belittle your system or your ears, but while you may feel you are getting "great bass" and good sound in general from your system, if your satellites only play down to 130 Hz, and if your subwoofer is quite inexpensive (and therefore probably cannot play below 40 Hz), you're not hearing the program material as it was meant to be heard, and at the very least you're not getting "great bass." I'm also not trying to belittle you, but I would have thought an engineer would have known most of this. (Maybe your engineering degree is in a much different field?)

One other thing I've noticed in the posts above: subwoofer it seems that you're conflating volume with sound quality. You don't need large speakers to reproduce high volumes in your theatre; similarly, just because speakers are large doesn't mean they're going to "blast your neighbours away" or "burst your eardrums," or however you put it above. In fact, in addition to the inherent limitations of your system noted above, if you simply "set the volume to 50%" on your subwoofer, and didn't properly adjust your other speaker levels (as I'm guessing you didn't), then there's really no basis at all to make any substantial claims about your system's inherent performance or sound.

You might want to do a search here and on other forms on "calibration"; calibrating your system's levels is a must if you're trying to achieve accurate (and pleasing) sound. Of course if you don't care about high fidelity, then ignore all of this.

Thanks for posting all of this. I have read all of this before from somewhere, either here or another website about speaker reviews. I'm not offended by your comments and you put it very nicely. Thank you. However I was not pleased by your comment about me know this since I'm an engineer. But I'm not offended by that either. I work on computers and programming. My degree delt nothing with speakers. I learned about frequencies in the air and water in physics but I mostly slept thru that stuff.

Anyway, I see what you mean by losing frequency. My sub now can go down to 35hz. What I plan on doing is "maybe" getting a new sub so I'm going to head over to Tweeter with my sub and compare it to a $1200 one of theirs that goes down to 20hz. I'm not sure if I"m really missing that much in that 15hz range. As for feeling great bass, I sure am and its wild in movies, but I wish digital cable was a little better. That seems to be a problem with Comcast since its analog signal for certain channels. As for the other end of the frequency that I may be missing, from about 70-130hz, this I feel is being picked up from subwoofer. I see what you mean by certain sounds around there being localized, but I'm not sure if I see this as a major problem and losing any sound. When testing larger speakers at stores in closed rooms, I cannot feel or hear a difference with localization of bass to each speaker. Maybe I'll listen to a certain scene of a movie on my speakers and try it out on theirs (maybe). What first worried me with this talk was that there were background noises in movies that I was not hearing at all, which is not the case. I've read though in a few articles that having a great subwoofer is needed for satellite speakers. The point is, if you only use satellites and nothing else, they are practically worthless. This is a reason I may need a better sub.

I see what you mean by having localizing of bass in different speakers and small speakers don't handle that. In the near future, I plan on upgrading my 5.1 system to a 7.1 system by getting larger speakers up front (moving my L and R ones to the rear). Would this remove the localization problem?

Thanks for your input everyone but I'm still sold on sat/sub combo. I plan on getting a nice 50" DLP tv and I can sit the speakers on the end of a very wide table, whereas with larger speakers I cannot. I guess you could say I like both size of speakers.

Well I put down larger speakers from time to time cause of their size. Plus with larger bass from them, you will be blasting your neighbors away. And I have set up my speakers correctly, thank you very much. Both myself, my friend whose an acoustic engineer, and the trusty YPAO system in my Yamaha. I'm doing just fine with my speakers.

"Would this remove the localization problem"

not really, because any localized sounds meant for your surrounds or center channel in the 80 to 130 HZ would still be going to your sub. Your sats are a far bigger problem at this point than your sub.

I also put down satellite speakers because of their very limited bass handling ability, and being unable to reproduce lower mid-bass (because of each speakers higher set crossover). You've also got the problem with the subwoofers own crossover; it has to be set higher therefore more probable of bass localization.

Speakers with a LF of 120hz or higher just sound unbearingly lacking.

I personally cannot listen to even high quality satellites, especially when it comes to CD's with minimal bass management/direction to the subwoofer.

Bigger speakers does not mean "more bassy" as you think of it, it'll just mean a high quality set reproduce mid-range far better than small drive units.

Go and listen to some standmount speakers, then compare against your sat/sub, it does sound like want to put down (better) speakers that just happen to be bigger (which you dislike)

I don't disagree with you. I think you can get great performance from sub/sat systems, with one caveat: you'll probably have to pay a lot more to get that great performance in a sub/sat system than you would in a sub and bookshelf system, for example. One of the keys is getting sats that play down to 80 Hz or so - that way you'll be able to smoothly integrate them with your sub. But it will cost you.

Subwoofer, I believe you that you calibrated, but just because speakers are larger doesn't mean their "bass" will dominate everything else. Unless of course you have massive tower speakers combined in a system with tiny satellites that can't produce the same frequencies the towers are producing. That's a different story.

I disagree slightly with lyle on the larger-speakers-up-front-and-sats-as-surrounds issue. You'll still get localization, but it shouldn't be as noticeable since less bass information is typically sent to surround speakers in movies (music's a different story of course), and therefore you won't notice it as much. Ideally you have speakers of whatever size all over your theatre that are: a) all the same model, b) can play down to at least 80 Hz, and of course c) sound good.

If you're thinking of upgrading, I'd look at some of the cheap but stellar-performing, mainly Internet-direct subs out there, like Hsu (e.g. STF-2 or VTF-2) and SVS (e.g. PB10-ISD) (I've also heard good things about Dayton). As lyle said though, good satellites are important too.

Again this is not meant in any way to be offensive, but until you've really experienced 20 Hz and sub-20 Hz bass during a movie at reference levels (i.e. 105 dB), you really don't know what you're missing. I thought I had a good subwoofer (Athena AS-P400) until I got my SVS. The Athena was good at $400 USD, but the SVS is in a completely different universe. If you really want the movie experience, first save up and buy a very good sub, and then later on buy small bookshelves or satellites (if that's what you prefer) that play down to 80 Hz or below. If you ended up with a system like this: SVS PB10-ISD and Athena AS-B1s all around, or Axiom M2i's all around, you would have MORE than a respectable, awesome sounding home theatre, and it wouldn't break the bank.

I have and I'm liking both. I feel like I'm getting great sound of our my sats/sub. I guess we just have our differences

"I feel like I'm getting great sound of our my sats/sub."

Great, no one is knocking that. All we are saying is that if you heard a better system in your home in a side by side test with yours, you would no doubt see a differance. I know I did.
If looking for a sub, you can also try Velodyne, they make a pretty solid unit at a fair price.

Thats the one I checked out at Tweeter, very cool. Check out my thread for "DO I need more Bass?" I talk about it there.

I wouldn't mind having a side by side test in my HT but I don't know how I'm going to set that one up. I just can't borrow the speakers from stores. I've done the A-B test at the store and (as I have said earlier), I do notice a difference but not that big of one to spare the space for larger speakers. Right now I blew my money on a big couch, and soon a big DLP tv. Thats why sat/sub was perfect for me.

I was reading this thread hopinh someone would stick up for our home town name sake. My dad and good buddy are both emplyed at AB, and i will concur, that one of the best aspects of the beer is that it tastes the same here in St. Louis as it does anywhere in the world.

And yes, I agree that it is top notch, by the way, so does 40% of the worlds beer drinkers.

not to knock Bud ,BUT ....There is a town I've been to called Budviesen (sp?) , as well as another called Mikelob (again sp?) where the beer recipe is very similar to the recipes used by the american versions of similar names (both pilsners , after Pilsen ,another town in Check repub) ...the differance in taste however, is HUGE and unmistakable due to several elements...first PASTUERIZATION, second ADDITIVES, third POOR INGREDIANTS......not A-B's fault , just impossible to "hand select" 450 metric tons of Hops and Grain ...alas, I sit hear with a Belvedere Martini and I digress ...back to the thread

What is the woofer size and what is the wattage rating of that Polk 303? (I'm being lazy by not searching for it on the 'net. .) If you think it's loud enough and are happy w/ its quality, than all the merrier.

Without bothering to read the previous 10+ pages....

Just go listen. Compare them to a recommended speaker, and you judge....If you're happy, that's All that counts. I would be amazed if you chose Bose over another brand. You should feel comfortable with your choice. If, for whatever reason, you choose Bose, you should have your reasons....and I'd love to hear them.

Eh, I'm lazy too Here's the specs: http://www.polkaudio.com/home/specs....=7&speaker=319

I know I can do better, I'm not saying this is a wonderful subwoofer. But right now, it seems to be doing the trick. If I need a better one too, I need to see if the low pass filter on it will go as high as 120 or 130hz since I have satellites

"I need to see if the low pass filter on it will go as high as 120 or 130hz since I have satellites"

this is what the crossover is for.