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HAS the OAR battle been lost? - Page 6  

post #151 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
i only suggested a lock b.c of the childish nature it was reduced to by DaveFi's "That is not the same and you know it."
Someone who writes with the grammar of a 4th grader really shouldn't be complaining about the "childish nature" of other comments in the thread.
post #152 of 276
1.85 is so close to 1.78 it's not worth fighting over really.

2.35 otoh... huge difference, please PLEASE give me OAR!

My standard response is if you don't like black bars, turn out the lights. That is how "movies" should be watched anyway.
post #153 of 276
HBO commitment

"quote"
As part of this commitment, HBO will eliminate panning and scanning and will display motion pictures in their original aspect ratios on the new 16:9 HDTV screens. If a motion picture was composed in anamorphic format with a 2.4:1 aspect ratio, that is the way it will be seen. The Caucus took a strong stand on this issue in 1995 in conjunction with The Artists Rights Foundation, DGA and ASC.

“Our goal is to make HD viewing an uniquely engaging experience,†says HBO Studio Operations Vice President Ralph Fumante, Jr. “We want the audience to experience narrative films and documentaries with all of the subtleties in colors, contrast and composition that are on the original negative, because an expression in someone’s eyes, the look and feel of the environment and relative positions of characters in the frame are all part of the storytelling.â€

Fumante notes that panning and scanning alters the director and cinematographer’s creative intentions.

"unquote"
post #154 of 276
Time to create a "rec.widescreen.opinon" if this stuff keeps up.
post #155 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
im not saying im right and you are wrong.


you sure seem to know "the truth", though.
post #156 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by CPanther95
and I'm not sure how you address "fixing the problem" without addressing those people that HBO apparently believe have the majority opinion.
You can't honestly believe HBO (a Time Warner company) believes that the public wants cropped movies when titles like LOTR and Harry Potter (both by Warner companies) sell WAY more widescreen than full screen copies.

Everybody says the companies do it because they think J6P wants it but can't produce anything substantially showing that except for quotes on the OAR debate from like 4-5 years ago or longer.
post #157 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by walk
1.85 is so close to 1.78 it's not worth fighting over really.

2.35 otoh... huge difference, please PLEASE give me OAR!

My standard response is if you don't like black bars, turn out the lights. That is how "movies" should be watched anyway.
If this response was to me, I wasn't fighting. My only reason for pointing out the 1.85:1 cropping was to show that studios are modifying the aspect ratio of ALL HD transfers on HBO and broadcast TV, not just 2.35:1 movies. The only reason I can think of that they would modify those movies as well is as a deterrent to copying, as the vast majority of viewers would never see those black bars anyway.
post #158 of 276
Thread Starter 
I recommend we ignore those who wish to disrupt this thread and just continue working on how to address the problem. It's a problem that has gotten increasingly worse since Jan when I originally opened this thread.

Quote:
HBO Studio Operations Vice President Ralph Fumante, Jr.
Is that guy still at HBO? If he is I'll fire off a snail mail asking him why his opinion changed.
post #159 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
Time to create a "rec.widescreen.opinon" if this stuff keeps up.
I think it would be alt.tv.tech.hdtv.widescreen.advocacy although this stuff gets rehashed regularly on alt.video.dvd and to some extent within alt.tv.tech.hdtv (aka Bob Miller's newsgroup).
post #160 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by borghe
never once did I use the term copy protection, it would have been wrong of me to do so.. Everything I stated DOES support the fact that it is a copy DETERRENT. Let's look at the facts shall we?

DVDs have hit the mainstream. When Finding Nemo can sell 13 million copies in one week, the format has hit the mainstream, J6P and then some.

The public prefers Widescreen. My proof? Look at any video sales data. Movies that are released in separate versions sell more copies of the Widescreen version EVERY time.

So we have J6P buying lots of DVDs and with discs that come in separate versions J6P is choosing to buy them in widescreen (there aren't THAT many enthusiasts out there).

So now you are trying to tell me that J6P prefers no black bars, yet buys Widescreen DVDs when given the chance? Care to restate your opinion?

So Warner sees that the Widescreen version of Harry Potter blows the full screen one out of the water (note here that the widescreen version will have bars on EVERYONE's TV) but believes that the public wants to see it cropped on HBO? Care to restate your opinion yet?

Also read my post again. 1.85:1 movies are indeed cropped. Pull HBO onto your computer once (an HD Tivo will do the job nicely) and show me the black bars on a 1.85:1 movie.. Guess what, they aren't there. Last time I checked the OAR of Spider-Man wasn't 1.78:1, yet that's what HBO showed it as (hence no pixels of black bars). So 1.85:1 movies get cropped to 1.78:1, if even VERY slightly. Why would HBO do this? To make sure that the <10% of viewers with displays with zero pixel overscan don't get 21 pixels of black bars on the top and bottom of their screen (half an inch on a 55" screen with 0% overscan)?

Sorry.. I know you guys love to believe that J6P is the simple reason for cropping, but his general taste in DVD formats combined with the studios cropping films he will never see the black bars on doesn't lend itself to your theory very well.

Now studios doing it so that every movie you digitally copy will be non-OAR, thus forcing the enthusiasts into a new HD format when it is released...

Why would you buy Spider-Man or AOTC on HD-DVD when you already have pristine HD OAR copies?

I'm not saying I have serious insider information, but my theory holds up a lot better than just "Because J6P likes it that way". If it were just 2.35:1 movies being cropped I would be more inclined to agree...
I still think your theory is absolutely incorrect.

I don't know why some 1.85 movies are transferred as 1.78. But some are transferred as 1.85. I while back I played a number of my 1.85 DVDs on the computer and some had thin black bars.

Showtime maintains OAR on 2.35 movies. Yet according to you, if the idea was to prevent copying because of an altered ratio, the studios wouldn't allow 2.35 movies to be sent to Showtime. Unlike HBO, Showtime does not create their own transfers. The studios could easily tell Showtime that they won't send 2.35 movies to them in OAR. But they don't. It's HBO's choice to transfer 2.35 movies as 1.85. Again, IT'S HBO'S CHOICE TO BUTCHER MOVIES.

Your premise is illogical and there isn't a shred of proof that your theory holds the tiniest drop of truth.

As far as why I would buy an HD DVD even if I had an HD copy, it's very simple. Almost every HD tape I have has some tiny glitch that occurred during transmission. I'm sure you'll say this was done intentionally to make me buy an HD DVD. I highly doubt it. But I'll buy an HD DVD to have the pristine copy I rarely get on a tape. But I strongly doubt there is any conspiracy going on here. The glitches with sat or OTA transmission are just the facts of life.

In any case, I won't waste any more time discussing an absolutely ridiculous conspiracy theory that you are so desperately holding on to, unless you can provide any proof to support your theory, and I'm very sure you will never find any.

Oh, one final thing:

Quote:
You said:

Now studios doing it so that every movie you digitally copy will be non-OAR, thus forcing the enthusiasts into a new HD format when it is released...


HBO has been broadcasting HD movies since March, 1999. They started their movie butchering in October, 1999, long before HD DVD was seriously being talked about. Are you trying to tell us that in October, 1999, HBO decided that to promote sales of HD DVDs (5 or 6 years in the future at that time) by no longer showing 2.35 movies in OAR? Please. Your conspiracy theories are absurd. But why do the studios that send Showtime OAR HD movies do so? Aren't they worried about protecting their future when HD DVDs are released. You see, so many holes can be shot through your theory, that it's left in complete tatters.

As I said, come back with a reasonable theory, then I'll discuss it.
post #161 of 276
Thread Starter 
I give up on this thread and premium cable TV. Not enough worth watching on SHO and what is is cropped on HBO/STZ. So, I will be cancelling my premiums and using my saved $200+ yr to purchase DVDs/DVHS.

Oh well, too bad. I held out for this long. Bring on HD-DVD!
post #162 of 276
I just thought of something. Earlier in this thread, it was mentioned that The 100k+ members of this forum constituted more than an elite sample of audio-video enthusiasts. The collective power of our members to influence policy should be considered. Imagine if HBO got 100k threats to cancel HD service unless our desire for OAR was accomodated. POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!
post #163 of 276
you know jerry, I set you to ignore a LONG time ago, and now I see why.

You say I have no proof.. umm.. hello, pot? kattel. black. where is yours? You are going ENTIRELY on unfounded guesses as to why HBO is doing it, and EVERYTHING I have factually posted goes to disproving it.

You say Joe Six Pack wants no black bars. Yet Joe Six Pack buys widescreen movies on DVD when given the chance to buy fullscreen ones. You have no response.

You say HBO thinks Joe Six Pack wants no black bars yet Warner movies with separate versions sell more widescreen copies every time. Even better, every series that HBO sends off to TV they do so ONLY in widescreen meaning every 4:3 customer out there will still have black bars? If they care about Joe Six Pack so much why wouldn't they release full screen Sopranos seasons? You have no response.

You say my theory about copy deterent is crazy, yet on movies that 90%+ of us would never see black bars on they STILL crop the movies for 1.78:1. You have no response.

As to why Showtime shows OAR and not HBO? Let's look at the difference. HBO, Cinemax, Starz, and Showtime, all croppers, pretty much cover most or all of Universal, Buena Vista, Fox, Warner Brothers, New Line, Lions Gate, with just a tiny smattering of the others.

Showtime covers Paramount, MGM, and Columbia with just a smattering of the others.

It really isn't too hard to deduce that Showtime, aka Paramount, MGM, and Columbia, choose to show their movies OAR, while the rest choose to show their movies cropped.

Is my logic flawless? Of course not, but it's a lot better than the complete absence of proof you're offering. "They're doing it because J6P doesn't want black bars," even though they KNOW J6P is ok/likes black bars by DVD sales and they are getting rid of black bars that J6P will never see on all 1.85:1 movies. Yeah, my theory may not be perfect, but it has a HELL of a lot fewer holes than your unsubstantiated claims.
post #164 of 276
oh, to cover your points thoroughly (one of us has to):

Quote:
I don't know why some 1.85 movies are transferred as 1.78. But some are transferred as 1.85. I while back I played a number of my 1.85 DVDs on the computer and some had thin black bars.
Yes, they are there on your DVDs. But if you want I can show you a digital capture of any 1.85:1 movie on HBO and there are no black bars. They are 1.78:1.

Quote:
Showtime maintains OAR on 2.35 movies. Yet according to you, if the idea was to prevent copying because of an altered ratio, the studios wouldn't allow 2.35 movies to be sent to Showtime. Unlike HBO, Showtime does not create their own transfers. The studios could easily tell Showtime that they won't send 2.35 movies to them in OAR. But they don't. It's HBO's choice to transfer 2.35 movies as 1.85. Again, IT'S HBO'S CHOICE TO BUTCHER MOVIES.
You act as if they are all getting movies from the same studios. The Warner channels get VERY FEW Columbia and Paramount movies while Showtime gets pretty much no movies from the other studios. It's not like Fox is sending HBO cropped movies but Showtime OAR ones.

Quote:
As far as why I would buy an HD DVD even if I had an HD copy, it's very simple. Almost every HD tape I have has some tiny glitch that occurred during transmission. I'm sure you'll say this was done intentionally to make me buy an HD DVD. I highly doubt it. But I'll buy an HD DVD to have the pristine copy I rarely get on a tape. But I strongly doubt there is any conspiracy going on here. The glitches with sat or OTA transmission are just the facts of life.
great, but you completely avoided the issue on if you had a flawless copy.

Quote:
HBO has been broadcasting HD movies since March, 1999. They started their movie butchering in October, 1999, long before HD DVD was seriously being talked about. Are you trying to tell us that in October, 1999, HBO decided that to promote sales of HD DVDs (5 or 6 years in the future at that time) by no longer showing 2.35 movies in OAR? Please. Your conspiracy theories are absurd. But why do the studios that send Showtime OAR HD movies do so? Aren't they worried about protecting their future when HD DVDs are released. You see, so many holes can be shot through your theory, that it's left in complete tatters.
Any search on the net will show you some of the first work on HD-DVD began in 1998 by the DVD forum. Who is in the DVD forum? Time Warner, Fox, Buena Vista, Universal. Who ISN'T in the group? Viacom (Paramount and Showtime) and MGM. About the only flaw in my reasoning is Sony, but arguably they are in the DVD Forum and STILL trying to create a new format (two actually).

So go ahead, insult and accuse me all you want, but the facts are right on everyone's monitors. I am offering facts on why I think my theory holds up. You are offering nothing. I am offering up a reason why HBO crops when they know J6P buys widescreen DVDs. You are offering nothing. I am offering up a reason why HBO crops 1.85:1 movies. You are offering nothing. I am offering up a reason why studios that get shown on HBO crop and ones that get shown on Showtime don't, and you are offering nothing (that makes sense at least). All of my points in this paragraph are based on objective fact. Yours are based on an opinion you believe HBO has but have no proof other than statements issued over two years ago.

So until you offer something better than reasons that are blown apart by simple sales demographics, I really am done.
post #165 of 276
The "widescreen outsells fullscreen" argument does not prove J6P prefers widescreen in all cases.

J6P prefers or accepts black bars on his 4:3 display but does not accept black bars on his 16:9 display. The concept that you see more information in widescreen has been drilled into most DVD renters and tv watchers for some time. On the 4:3 25" console that J6P is watching, he accepts the black bars and probably prefers them.

Like I said in an earlier post, when J6P gets that fancy widescreen TV (which he places on top of his broken 25" console), he is going to be pissed that DVDs and HBO OAR movies still have those black bars. He has incorrectly assumed that a 16:9 aspect would eliminate all black bars.

I know this because I thought exactly like J6P when I got my 16:9 display. I knew little about HDTV then and I barely know enough now to turn the damn thing on but I took the time to research and understand why my 16:9 display still had black bars.

Another reason why the WS outsells FS doesn't hold water is because alot of the time J6P grabs the WS copy when he rents a DVD, not knowing the difference. But he just accepts it because he knows you need one of those fancy widescreen TVs to make the black bars go away.

Once you understand OAR and watch enough cropped junk you become enlightened.

J6P is not going to invest the time to become enlightened as to why there are black bars on his shiny new widescreen TV. J6P is going to call his cable operator and bitch that his new expensive TV he purchased at Sam's Club is displaying them damn black bars when he watches HBO.
post #166 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by tall1
The "widescreen outsells fullscreen" argument does not prove J6P prefers widescreen in all cases.
I agree, nor did I say it did. But I would argue that it does in most cases.

Quote:
J6P prefers or accepts black bars on his 4:3 display but does not accept black bars on his 16:9 display. The concept that you see more information in widescreen has been drilled into most DVD renters and tv watchers for some time. On the 4:3 25" console that J6P is watching, he accepts the black bars and probably prefers them.
J6P buying widescreen DVDs on his 4:3 TV notices that some DVDs have smaller black bars and some have bigger black bars. Unless J6P was completely blind that is. It goes to reason that J6P understands that some movies are "wider" or at the very least have more black bars than others.

Quote:
Like I said in an earlier post, when J6P gets that fancy widescreen TV (which he places on top of his broken 25" console), he is going to be pissed that DVDs and HBO OAR movies still have those black bars. He has incorrectly assumed that a 16:9 aspect would eliminate all black bars.

I know this because I thought exactly like J6P when I got my 16:9 display. I knew little about HDTV then and I barely know enough now to turn the damn thing on but I took the time to research and understand why my 16:9 display still had black bars.
IMHO it is very presumptuous to believe this. As per above, J6P after watching just say a dozen or so movies, will HAVE to notice the different aspect ratios, even if he doesn't realize it. ESPECIALLY on a 25" TV.

Quote:
Another reason why the WS outsells FS doesn't hold water is because alot of the time J6P grabs the WS copy when he rents a DVD, not knowing the difference. But he just accepts it because he knows you need one of those fancy widescreen TVs to make the black bars go away.
J6P is renting less and less every day. One only has to look at Blockbuster losing sales hand over fits to see that. J6P is hitting up best buy for $15.99 first weeks as opposed to hitting blockbuster for $2.99 for two nights.

But regardless of that, I am talking strictly over the counter sales data. Many times the full screen version of a movie won't even chart yet the widescreen version pulls number one or two. THAT is pretty telling.

Quote:
Once you understand OAR and watch enough cropped junk you become enlightened.

J6P is not going to invest the time to become enlightened as to why there are black bars on his shiny new widescreen TV. J6P is going to call his cable operator and bitch that his new expensive TV he purchased at Sam's Club is displaying them damn black bars when he watches HBO.
great, J6P can call and complain all he wants. Arguably complaining does very little. As the saying goes, action speaks louder than words. Unless J6P cancels HBO, whatever his opinion is probably won't matter for squat.

But Jerry said it best. HBO started in early 99 and by the end of 99 was cropping movies. Did J6P complain back then? No. In 1999 the average HDTV cost over $5000. J6P at that point probably never even saw an HD broadcast. So what caused HBO in 1999, with majority viewership of their HD channel being early adopter enthusiasts, to switch to cropped movies. Surely mounds of enthusiasts didn't call HBO in 1999 when black bars showed up on their $5000 TVs. J6P wasn't buying full screen DVDs in 1999. J6P never even saw widescreen movies on HBO to complain. So where is all of this supposed complaining coming from that forced HBO in around six months to change their policy on aspect ratio? From the people buying widescreen DVDs? From the early adopters getting every last minute out of their $5000 TV? From the fractional minority buying full screen DVDS? Really, who was telling HBO in 1999 when they put the policy into effect that they wanted cropped movies?

HBO quite obviously at the time arbitrarily decided to do this. They claimed it was because the typical viewer didn't want black bars. We bought into it. However now we are seeing that no only have they been cropping 2.35:1 movies, but that they have been cropping 1.85:1 movies as well.. So who complained to HBO to get rid of black bars that would be covered up by 2% or more of overscan?
post #167 of 276
Quote:
Like I said in an earlier post, when J6P gets that fancy widescreen TV (which he places on top of his broken 25" console), he is going to be pissed that DVDs and HBO OAR movies still have those black bars. He has incorrectly assumed that a 16:9 aspect would eliminate all black bars.

I know this because I thought exactly like J6P when I got my 16:9 display. I knew little about HDTV then and I barely know enough now to turn the damn thing on but I took the time to research and understand why my 16:9 display still had black bars.
Exactly. I did the exact same. I believe one of my earlier posts on this forum was one of the "why do I still have black bars" question. And I was a semi-informed consumer (though obviously not enough) . :) Imagine J6P who stopped in best buy for the day and just decided to wing it with his purchase.

Conspiracy theories aside, this is the most plausable reason for lack of OAR. J6P picks up a widescreen tv and doesn't expect to see black bars and generally is not going to get on a forum and have someone explain to him WHY he still sees it.

Also, I think the outselling of widescreen dvds versus full screen is not really relevent because I know at least in my best buy, the widescreen ones are the ones sitting out for everyone to grab. You would have to dig for the fullscreen version. I doubt most J6P even read to see if it's widescreen or fullscreen or even know what that means, they just grab the one on top, so it's not suprising that it's higher selling. My wife still doesn't know or read the boxes and sometimes grabs the fullscreen version at target and I have to send her back to return it.
post #168 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by borghe
J6P buying widescreen DVDs on his 4:3 TV notices that some DVDs have smaller black bars and some have bigger black bars. Unless J6P was completely blind that is. It goes to reason that J6P understands that some movies are "wider" or at the very least have more black bars than others.

IMHO it is very presumptuous to believe this. As per above, J6P after watching just say a dozen or so movies, will HAVE to notice the different aspect ratios, even if he doesn't realize it. ESPECIALLY on a 25" TV.
Well maybe I am blind, stupid or both because small or big, they were just black bars to me. I had no idea there were 1:85 and 2:35 aspect ratios.
Quote:
Originally posted by borghe
J6P is renting less and less every day. One only has to look at Blockbuster losing sales hand over fits to see that. J6P is hitting up best buy for $15.99 first weeks as opposed to hitting blockbuster for $2.99 for two nights.
Quote:
Originally posted by borghe

But regardless of that, I am talking strictly over the counter sales data. Many times the full screen version of a movie won't even chart yet the widescreen version pulls number one or two. THAT is pretty telling.
Telling of what? I was often time oblivious to whether a DVD was widescreen or fullscreen or pan and scan. It made little difference to me.
Quote:
Originally posted by borghe
great, J6P can call and complain all he wants. Arguably complaining does very little. As the saying goes, action speaks louder than words. Unless J6P cancels HBO, whatever his opinion is probably won't matter for squat.
I agree. But it certainly affirms the decision HBO made to crop movies.
Quote:
Originally posted by borghe
So who complained to HBO to get rid of black bars that would be covered up by 2% or more of overscan?
Some weenie in the front office at HBO whose girlfriend mentioned she didn't like seeing black bars when she watched Hugh Grant movies.
post #169 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by waltinvt
How you prefer to see a friggen movie is purely subjective - period. No one is right or wrong - it's strickly a preference.
[/b]
Yes it is a preference - I think what most people want here is the choice! You generally have a choice in DVD's - we should get the same choice when watching premium movie channels - not get force fed one version or the other. Show the whole movie, and let those who are afraid of the black bars hit the "zoom" mode on their remote.
post #170 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by ccallana
Yes it is a preference - I think what most people want here is the choice! You generally have a choice in DVD's - we should get the same choice when watching premium movie channels - not get force fed one version or the other. Show the whole movie, and let those who are afraid of the black bars hit the "zoom" mode on their remote.
Well said but I would love to know why they don't give us the choice. I wrote HBO today and asked that very thing. I will post the response here if I ever get one.

EDIT: Here is what I sent...

I really love HBO. You have the best programming on all of TV by a long stretch. We watch almost every original series and several movies. Recently, we purchased a HDTV and noticed that sometimes but not very often the movies are shown in their original aspect ratio. I was wondering why this is not done for all movies? The original aspect ratio displays all of the information. I understand it will cause black bars at the top and bottom of the screen which some viewers may not like but I am a movie fan and a HDTV enthusiast and it is becoming increasingly annoying to see that most of the movies you present are edited to fill the screen. Most widescreen TVs have a zoom function so if some viewers want to fill their screen they can do this themselves. If I want to see the movie in the original aspect ratio, I am not given the choice. Also, if the majority of viewers want the movie zoomed and HBO makes the decision to present the movie in this reduced quality, could you please identify it in your guide as Letterbox? This would save me the trouble of recording/viewing an inferior presentation of the movie. Thanks for listening and I look forward to your response. Sincerely,
post #171 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by borghe
But Jerry said it best. HBO started in early 99 and by the end of 99 was cropping movies. Did J6P complain back then? No. In 1999 the average HDTV cost over $5000. J6P at that point probably never even saw an HD broadcast. So what caused HBO in 1999, with majority viewership of their HD channel being early adopter enthusiasts, to switch to cropped movies. Surely mounds of enthusiasts didn't call HBO in 1999 when black bars showed up on their $5000 TVs. J6P wasn't buying full screen DVDs in 1999. J6P never even saw widescreen movies on HBO to complain. So where is all of this supposed complaining coming from that forced HBO in around six months to change their policy on aspect ratio? From the people buying widescreen DVDs? From the early adopters getting every last minute out of their $5000 TV? From the fractional minority buying full screen DVDS? Really, who was telling HBO in 1999 when they put the policy into effect that they wanted cropped movies?

HBO quite obviously at the time arbitrarily decided to do this. They claimed it was because the typical viewer didn't want black bars. We bought into it. However now we are seeing that no only have they been cropping 2.35:1 movies, but that they have been cropping 1.85:1 movies as well.. So who complained to HBO to get rid of black bars that would be covered up by 2% or more of overscan?
You weren't on the board back in Oct 1999. But it was extensively reported that HBO did a survey amongst their own employees and that they preferred no black bars. That is widely held to be the reason HBO started their 2.35 to 1.85 policy.

Now regarding 1.85 to 1.78, I really don't know what's going on there. But I believe you'll find most people, even OAR sticklers, such as myself, don't really object to 1.85 movies being shown as 1.78. That's such a small amount of alteration, it really doesn't bother me. And the same alteration of 1.85 movies occurs with DVDs as well as HD showings from HBO. Do you really think that most people would be so bothered by the 1.85 to 1.78 change that they would get an HD DVD instead of keeping their HD tape? Maybe some would, but I wouldn't. I really don't see how the 1.85 to 1.78 issue is an intentional ploy by the studios to force enthusiasts to buy an HD DVD.
post #172 of 276
You say "to-ma-to", I say "to-mot-to" -- let's call the whole thing off....
post #173 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by borghe
If this response was to me, I wasn't fighting. My only reason for pointing out the 1.85:1 cropping was to show that studios are modifying the aspect ratio of ALL HD transfers on HBO and broadcast TV, not just 2.35:1 movies. The only reason I can think of that they would modify those movies as well is as a deterrent to copying, as the vast majority of viewers would never see those black bars anyway.
It was a general response.

No they are not modifying the shows shot originally in 16:9/1.78 HDTV.

Also, I bet you have never really seen a movie, 1.85, 2.35, or any other size in true "OAR". There is always some cropping as projectionists usually fill the screen and generally don't care if 5-10% of the picture falls off the screen, onto the curtain, the floor, the ceiling, the top of the seats in the front row.. (I have seen some pretty lousy framing jobs heh) etc...
post #174 of 276
waltinvt says how we prefer to watch movies is subjective. I have to disagree on this point. Cropping a movie removes information, action, and composition. There is nothing subjective about this - that information is gone!

When I see a movie, I want to see all of it, not the middle part. I want to see how the cameraman composed the shot. I want to see the monk at the edge of the frame in Little Buddha. I want to see both people having a conversation across a table. Anything less isn't the same movie.
post #175 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by chroma601
waltinvt says how we prefer to watch movies is subjective. I have to disagree on this point. Cropping a movie removes information, action, and composition. There is nothing subjective about this - that information is gone!

When I see a movie, I want to see all of it, not the middle part. I want to see how the cameraman composed the shot. I want to see the monk at the edge of the frame in Little Buddha. I want to see both people having a conversation across a table. Anything less isn't the same movie.
You used the phrase "I want" 4 times in the above paragraph. You believe the provider of the movie should "subject" the presentation to your "wants". Another poster opines that the movie should be presented according to his wants. Another prefers that the provider offer choices so he can pick how it is presented. One wants OAR; one wants pan & scan; one wants stretch - they all want to "subject" the movie to their own preferences.

Whoever provided the movie has already "subjected" it to their wants and presented as such. The objective truth is that's the way it is. It is what it is.

The resulting dialog is a collage of various opinions about what should have been and what should be, based on individual preferences.

Simply put, say a film is created and presented in the theater. Seeing that film in the theater is like the "optimum" way to experience that film. You can't change it - you can only experience it. That's the objective truth of it.

Anything other than that original type of presentation MUST "subject" the film to some change and therefore the experience becomes "subjective" to opinions of how to change it.

Your preference is to keep the OAR the same at the expense of using less of your TV screen. Someone else's preference is to use all of their TV screen at the expense of removing and / or distorting some of the film.

Both are preferences (feelings about) how to change the viewing experience. Neither is right or wrong - just different.

WaltinVt
post #176 of 276
Either we are seeing the film as it was shot or we aren't. Yes, I want to see every bit of a film, including the edges of the frame. And I feel that I deserve this when I am paying for the right to see the film.

Viewing a film and missing a significant portion of it certainly seems "wrong" to me. At the very least, it makes me uncomfortable.

Simply put, I respect the film more than I respect the monitor. If you don't care about the film and just want your monitor filled at the expense of compositional accuracy and in some cases, plot, that is your perogative. All I want (here I am wanting again!) is a choice. HBO isn't giving us that choice. As I wrote before, they could do this. They could show their films cropped and OAR on different nights. I like HBO's original programming so I won't drop them, but they really can afford to be more flexible.

This is a lot like a political discussion! We'll never change each others minds. Knowing that, would it be too much for us to ask for your support in asking HBO to air their films both ways? It's not like they only play a given film once a month!
post #177 of 276
I have an idea --- let's take up to 40% of the notes out of CD's (music) and see what everybody thinks about that!
post #178 of 276
Thread Starter 
What was the point of this thread again?
post #179 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by bbodin

Also, I think the outselling of widescreen dvds versus full screen is not really relevent because I know at least in my best buy, the widescreen ones are the ones sitting out for everyone to grab. You would have to dig for the fullscreen version. I doubt most J6P even read to see if it's widescreen or fullscreen or even know what that means, they just grab the one on top, so it's not suprising that it's higher selling. My wife still doesn't know or read the boxes and sometimes grabs the fullscreen version at target and I have to send her back to return it.
I'll throw my 2 cents worth in here... I would be astonished if this occurred more than once (so, how many times have you actually had to go back?). J6P is getting a lot of bashing here, but I have a higher opinion of the average consumer, and cannot believe that they would not figure this out after one purchase. A mistake is one thing, not knowing about it is another. And I'm pretty sure that your taking back the widescreen version nuls out the widescreen sale.
post #180 of 276
The single most annoying thing done today in the pursuit of a "filled" screen is something I haven't seen addressed here (apologies in advance if I haven't been paying attention) and maybe it deserves its own thread, but until then:

We have two cable boxes hooked up to our HD set - a non-HD box with TiVo and a 6208 with DVR. This has allowed us to A/B HD and non-HD versions of the same broadcasts, and we've made some interesting discoveries. The one that's relevant to this thread is that some "widescreen" movies aren't just cropped in the usual way, but that they actually take the 4:3 pan & scan version you see on the non-HD channel, matte that and call it widescreen! Given that the supposed purpose of widescreen is to give you more of the original image, can you imagine anything more perverse than a "widescreen" process that gives you even less of it than P&S? (My math whiz roommate says that matted P&S has only 56% of the original frame, as opposed to 75% for either 1.85 cropped to 4:3 or 2.35 cropped to 1.85.)

At first I thought only Starz did this (Frida being a recent example), but so does HBO (the example there being Mighty Aphrodite). Just thought you might like to know that it's even worse than you thought!
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