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HAS the OAR battle been lost? - Page 4  

post #91 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23

Its a balance, either you have bars with full quality, or you have (extremely) slightly lower video quality and a full screen. I choose the latter, as do most whom I have talked to. But regardless.

The OAR battle at this point does more damage than good. Right now HD broadcast cost more money than they make, and the thanx they get is whining? good plan. (sarcasm).
Quality, schmality. Screen fillers obviously don't give a damn about the movie and seeing all of it. They don't care if the entire composition and effect of a movie is ruined by deforming the movie from 2.35 to 1.85. What do you screen fillers do with 2.35 movies on DVDs.

BTW, please prove to me that it costs more to create an HD transfer deforming a 2.35 movie to 1.85 than it would cost to create the transfer in OAR. And please don't accuse us of whining because we'd like to see movies as they were intended to be seen, and please don't tell me that I need to allow HBO to butcher movies because I'm so grateful that they have an HD channel. HBO started their HD channel with OAR. It was only after their rather ignorant employees expressed a preference for filling their screen did HBO go into the movie butchering business. If HDNet Movies and Showtime's movies can be in OAR without seemingly hurting these companies financially, then so can HBO and the other butcher shops.

Those people who have NO artistic appreciation for movies and only want to fill their screens can stay with the 4:3 SD channels for all I care.
post #92 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
I still feel that to better sell the product it has to fit the screen. Look how long it took for movies to go widescreen (how many widescreen VHS movies you seen?)
But it did eventually go widescreen. If it was strictly marketing to J6P, why were widescreen movies available in such great quantity before 16:9 TV's were a significant factor?
post #93 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry G
It was only after their rather ignorant employees expressed a preference for filling their screen did HBO go into the movie butchering business.

Those people who have NO artistic appreciation for movies and only want to fill their screens can stay with the 4:3 SD channels for all I care.
Typical - only way to argue is through insults. They are not ignorant, their preference is simply different then yours. You make compromises when going from theater to tv. Size is one, quality is another, I think format should be as well. My preference is open matte 1:2.35 to make 16x9 if possible. You dont agree. so we disagree, and it doesnt matter.

My point is to sell HD to the public (and it still needs to be sold) we need to do our best to provide them with the product they want. In a few years, given sales trends, that will be 16x9, not 1:2.35.
post #94 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
true

I still feel that to better sell the product it has to fit the screen. Look how long it took for movies to go widescreen (how many widescreen VHS movies you seen?)

what does this have to do with selling products??
I don't have money investing in movie production companies!!

How many HDTVs did you find back then too???
That's what LDs were for!!


and this statement is the exact reason why so many people (or so you think) what their screens filled, because it is what they grew up with.
well times have changed!!! with the advent of widescreen DVDs, more people are used to bars than you would think.
post #95 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23


My point is to sell HD to the public (and it still needs to be sold) we need to do our best to provide them with the product they want.

The product YOU want!!
post #96 of 276
no, the one they want.

ask J6P.. I have, on average, they want 16x9 with NO bars.

Do a survey in your local Best Buy or Circuit City (not tweeter, thats not your average customer) and show them LOTR stretched to fill and with bars, and in general, they will say (at least to my experience) "I am not paying 2k+ for a widescreen tv that still has bars, HD or no HD"
post #97 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
no, the one they want.

ask J6P.. I have, on average, they want 16x9 with NO bars.

Do a survey in your local Best Buy or Circuit City (not tweeter, thats not your average customer) and show them LOTR stretched to fill and with bars, and in general, they will say (at least to my experience) "I am not paying 2k+ for a widescreen tv that still has bars, HD or no HD"
you must work at BB or CC
that explains alot

I'm sure that you didn't influence their choice at all (sarcasm)
post #98 of 276
no i dont, I asked when shopping and founda cooperative employee.

I actually am an oceanographer with a master's degree, if that matters.

regardless, you wont convince me, I wont convince you, so the point is moot.
post #99 of 276
I don't get the problem with bars on 2.35:1 films on widescreen TVs. The bars are very small, and I don't find them the slightest bit distracting.

Although I do not feel this way, I do understand the problem people have with 2.35:1 movies on small (<27") screens. The "band-aid" effect is pretty severe. But on larger widescreen sets? It's just not that bad.
post #100 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
no i dont, I asked when shopping and founda cooperative employee.

I actually am an oceanographer with a master's degree, if that matters.

regardless, you wont convince me, I wont convince you, so the point is moot.
fyi, in this thread for every one person that wants cropped zoomed crap, there are 10 people that want OAR..that seals the deal for me

why are people buying WS dvds over FS dvds? aren't these the same people that rent their movies at blockbuster, who have pretty much stopped carrying full screen?

you can keep on arguing..the bottom line is that movies should be seen the way they were meant to be seen....another reason that all WS dvds aren't cropped and zoomed
post #101 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
no i dont, I asked when shopping and founda cooperative employee.

I actually am an oceanographer with a master's degree, if that matters.

regardless, you wont convince me, I wont convince you, so the point is moot.

we may never convince eachother, but there is a correct answer!
one of us is wrong and the other is right!

this isn't a preference thing...

eg. who is hotter - Brittney Spears VS Jessica Simpson

this is a, which isn't ruined thing...

eg. who is hotter - Brittney Spears VS Brittney Spears w/ crabs

you - would chose w/ crabs, because at least the product is still selling.

me - I want something that's not tainted!!
post #102 of 276
but the avs forum is not a survey of the average joe, in general it is a survey of the tech elite (a major minority).

You miss my point completely. I do NOT think cropped is better from a wholistic standpoint, I think it is better for selling the product, and better for HD in general.
post #103 of 276
and as far as the britney thing, a more accurate comparison would be

which is better, a pure britney with two big nasty moles on each cheek, or 90% of britney with no moles.

ill take 90% thank you
post #104 of 276
I never watch broadcast (or pay) expecting widescreen OAR. TV has virtually no history of it. I don't expect them to change. The few that will do it (HDNet for example), "Bravo!" to them for perserving the original intent. I'll take what I can get.

File this one with: ED vs. HD / analog vs. digital / premium cable vs. zip cord / tubes vs. transistors / Coke vs. Pepsi

As long as forthcoming HD DVD's are OAR, I'll be OK.
post #105 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
no, the one they want.

ask J6P.. I have, on average, they want 16x9 with NO bars.

Do a survey in your local Best Buy or Circuit City (not tweeter, thats not your average customer) and show them LOTR stretched to fill and with bars, and in general, they will say (at least to my experience) "I am not paying 2k+ for a widescreen tv that still has bars, HD or no HD"
I think that's just wrong. My local paper publishes a best seller list of DVD releases, which lists widescreen and pan & scan version, of the same movie, separately, and the widescreen versions invariably rank higher than the pan & scans.
post #106 of 276
I have another aspect of the "dumbing down" of HD for you to consider.

Limiting bandwidth

I've been pondering the question if I had to choose between bandwidth-limited HD OAR or full bandwidth HD non-OAR, which would I pick. Given the presentation of the Olympics by NBC, I would pick full bandwidth and non-OAR HD. It's the lesser of two evils. I prefer OAR movies, but if given a choice, I'd probably watch a non-macroblocked movie in full bandwidth butchered by the HBO-type channels.

I agree with the other posters, bring on HD-DVD (full bandwidth OAR movies). That's the only way I think I'll be completely satisfied.
post #107 of 276
"I think that's just wrong. My local paper publishes a best seller list of DVD releases, which lists widescreen and pan & scan version, of the same movie, separately, and the widescreen versions invariably rank higher than the pan & scans."

how hard is it to understand i have never ever advocated pan and scan. Read first, then comment.

this is soley 1:2.35 vs 16x9
post #108 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
but the avs forum is not a survey of the average joe, in general it is a survey of the tech elite (a major minority).

You miss my point completely. I do NOT think cropped is better from a wholistic standpoint, I think it is better for selling the product, and better for HD in general.
everything on tv (in HD) besides movies, DO fill the screen (sports, sitcoms, all DISCHD)
so it's not like EVERYTHING has bars, and it's SOOOOOO annoying.


wish I were in the tech elite (or entry level tech elite for that matter)
I bought my HDTV, because I absolutely love art. now screenfillers are ruining my artistic viewing!!!
post #109 of 276
It's too bad the US doesn't do what the UK (and other parts of Europe) have done - move everything to 16:9. Would make the transition to HD much easier.

Maybe we should develop a PSA on AR and run it on all channels every couple hours - educate folks :)
post #110 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by ccallana
It's too bad the US doesn't do what the UK (and other parts of Europe) have done - move everything to 16:9. Would make the transition to HD much easier.

Maybe we should develop a PSA on AR and run it on all channels every couple hours - educate folks :)
you'd think people would be used to it from DVDs, though
post #111 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
"I think that's just wrong. My local paper publishes a best seller list of DVD releases, which lists widescreen and pan & scan version, of the same movie, separately, and the widescreen versions invariably rank higher than the pan & scans."

how hard is it to understand i have never ever advocated pan and scan. Read first, then comment.

this is soley 1:2.35 vs 16x9
Pan & scan, cropped, whatever, most people prefer widescreen. Your argument to the contrary is not born out by the facts.

The whole point here is to give the consumer the choice. There is a provision in the standard called the Active Content Descriptor. I tells the decoder which pixels in the frame are content and which are black bars. The choice of how to display the image is left to the viewer. It is a fairly recent addition and I don't know that it has been implemented in any hardware or software. I hope it becomes widespread so these debates can rest in peace.
post #112 of 276
yeah that would be great. Currently you cant stretch HD, that is the main problem. If you could, then all could do what they want.

But given the current hardware, 16x9 is the way to go
post #113 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
yeah that would be great. Currently you cant stretch HD, that is the main problem. If you could, then all could do what they want.

But given the current hardware, 16x9 is the way to go
I can stretch HD, but I choose not to.
post #114 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveFi
Here's hoping HD-DVD arrives soon.
Unfortunately I wouldn't be surprised at all if we'll have to deal with 2.35:1 films cropped to 16:9 with HD-DVD and Blu-ray. I've always preferred 2.35:1 so black bars don't bother me. However I'm in the minority, especially outside of this forum. If a Joe Sixpack is going to spring for an HDTV he's going to be pissed that there's black sidebars when he watches Cheers reruns. There's no end in sight when it comes to ignorance and misunderstanding of aspect ratios. I can see Disney HD discs being cropped to 16:9 for the purpose of being "family-friendly" already. :rolleyes:
post #115 of 276
Thread Starter 
Quote:
but the avs forum is not a survey of the average joe, in general it is a survey of the tech elite (a major minority).
How many members does AVSForum have now? I think you're overstating it. Maybe at one point, but with over 100k members strong, I think that's changed.

Quote:
Unfortunately I wouldn't be surprised at all if we'll have to deal with 2.35:1 films cropped to 16:9 with HD-DVD and Blu-ray.
Joe, this won't be the case because the director will have more say over the final product just like on normal DVD.
post #116 of 276
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveFi
Joe, this won't be the case because the director will have more say over the final product just like on normal DVD.
Joe? I'm not Joe. ;) So you're saying it's the directors who are at fault in regards to DVDs that aren't in OAR? I find it hard to believe the studios haven't had a hand in that.
post #117 of 276
I for one just don't "get" cropping a movie for the sake of filling a screem. I suggest having a look at "The Dark Crystal" or "Little Buddha" first cropped to fill your screen, then again in OAR as they were shot. You will see different movies. Those are just two examples. When HBO showed "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" recently, there was a scene with Sean Connery talking to blank space. How can a serious movie lover abide that? {edit - this sure isn't a serious movie, just making a point. While I'm here, it's worth noting that in the pan and scan version of "Magnolia", there's a scene where the film becomes widescreen so you can see all the action! I thought that was cool... anyway:}

The idea that ones screen must be filled at the expense of content is disturbing. It shows more respect for the monitor than for the artistic vision of the filmmakers.

At least with a 16x9 screen the 2:35 letterbox is fairly minimal.

I've always hoped HBO would at least offer a choice. As they show their movies many times on may of their channels, why not offer some showings OAR and some cropped. I understand they do their own transfers, and in reality it's not that difficult to make a second pass through the telecine and turning off the pan list. Or they could use the studio's OAR masters, at least give those of us who respect the films a choice.
post #118 of 276
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Joe? I'm not Joe. So you're saying it's the directors who are at fault in regards to DVDs that aren't in OAR? I find it hard to believe the studios haven't had a hand in that.
Oops, I meant 720p, but "Joe" sounds much more personal.;)

Yeah, well, with DVDs it comes down to control, and the creators generally have more of a hand in what goes into them than they do with broadcast television. Thankfully, cropped movies on DVD are alot rarer these days and I would expect that to continue on HD-DVD.

Initially HD-DVD will be an enthusiasts format so expect OAR right off the bat.
post #119 of 276
maybe the standard committee can mandate zoom function in all hddvd player. that'll keep j6p happy.

every time I show an oar movie on dvd with more than 1 person (me) in the room, somebody inevitably asks if I can get rid of the black bars. I say no. Yeah my TV sucks deal with it.
post #120 of 276
Just do like I did, build a TV big enough that nobody notices any black bars. ;)
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