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post #31 of 540
Plain Fan,

Looks like current dating is ~late August, hopefully before CEDIA

Theranman,

It would be ~$5000 with one dual 10" sub and ~$6500 with dual subwoofers.
post #32 of 540
Actually, I was wondering if the DSP-1's could be purchase WITHOUT the subs...I already have a Velo DD-10.

thanks
post #33 of 540
I believe you can purchase that without the subs. I don't know though what EQing might happen. Perhaps there is an EQ defeat on it for the bass, I don't know. I think it would make sense to get the NHT sub, they're just as good at building subs as Velodyne and it does match, but I'm sure it would work somehow or another and I know it's available in component form. I don't know THAT many specifics, but I sure would like to :)
post #34 of 540
Well I talked to my local dealer recently and he's heard it in person. He too says that it will revolutionize how audio is heard and perceived. The way he described it I don't know if it will be compatible with speakers other than the NHT packaged with the electronics. He did say they demoed DSOTM and the sound was unbelievable. He can't wait for it to become available.
post #35 of 540
The NHT DSP system consists of several pieces. Two satellite cabinets with one 5.25" midrange and one 1" dome tweeter each, one bass module with two 10" woofers and a 500W switching amplifier and a processor/amplifier unit with four channels of amplification, six channels of DSP processing and two line level outputs. The price for the above 2 channel system will be about $5200. The bass module is about $1600. Two bass modules can be used with one pair of satellites.

The system is a three way speaker in one and a half boxes. It is not a subwoofer/satellite system. The satellites must be used with the NHT bass module.

A 5 channel surround system can use any number of bass modules between 1 and 6.

System setup will be super easy. There is one mode button on each satellite channel that can be in 1 of 4 positions. Each bass module has 1 bass trim control. That's it.

The system will be shipping before CEDIA.
post #36 of 540
Jack,

God love you and NHT and all, but I start to get a little skeptical when manufacturers in this industry start promising dates. We all remember what happened when the L5s where supposed to start shipping. I know sh!t happens with last minute glitches, but I don't want to see everybody start getting their hopes all up, and then have to play the waiting game. I am not trying to start any trouble at all, I really admire NHT as a company for the value they represent in the marketplace. I have a full Evolution setup in my main theater, and nobody I know can touch it for the price. Keep up the good work!
post #37 of 540
Jack,

As the owner of 3 L5s, if you need any beta testers......let me know:D

any chance of any upgrade program??? pretty please??

Also, I would recommend that you guys indeed incorporate a simple volume control and a couple of digital inputs- dont need any video switching or analog inputs to clutter the box up.

This would be the giant killer 1 box system that all wifes have been looking for!!! AND would satistfy all of the husbands as well! Think of all of the marriages you would be saving!
post #38 of 540
Jack,
Ditto the remarks above, have you or any of the other engineers had the opportunity to try the electronics with other NHT products like the L5/M5/M6?
post #39 of 540
Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Hidley
The system is a three way speaker in one and a half boxes. It is not a subwoofer/satellite system. The satellites must be used with the NHT bass module.
Not to get into semantics, but isn't that *the* definition of a true sub/sat system? When the satellites as you call them are designed to go with a matched subwoofer and vice versa? I don't think sub/sat is a pejorative term, just describing two small speakers designed to go with a "bass module".

I love Condi Rice, but it reminds me of her saying "oh, no we didn't receive a 'plan', just a list of actionable items". :)
post #40 of 540
Quote:
Originally posted by plain fan
Jack,
Ditto the remarks above, have you or any of the other engineers had the opportunity to try the electronics with other NHT products like the L5/M5/M6?
The DEQX box would certainly improve on any speaker's performance, the idea behind the DSP1 was to design a speaker based on the "new rules" and to maximize the capacity of the DEQX system AND put it in something that is user friendly. The drivers, according Jack's earlier statements, were chosen on the basis of low distortion and wide dispersion in the bandwidth while largely being able to ignore or certainly worry less about accuracy (easily correctable) and out of bandwidth distortions (easily avoidable).

The Evolution family uses driver complements that, while would work with the DEQX system, wouldn't maximize the capacity of the system because they are drivers chosen based on the compromises and limitations of passive crossovers. They have to be reasonably well behaved across a wide range on either side of the crossover rather than beautifully behaved in the used bandwidth only. IOW, the DEQX system takes away the need to compromise in many areas and allows them to go "all out". Magnesium is a wonderful material, but needs to be crossed over steeply to avoid audible ringing. If there is a DSP version of the Evolutions, it will most certainly use different drivers, otherwise, you'll only get an idea of the full benefit, not all of it.
post #41 of 540
Jonny,

Sometimes it scares the hell out of me to tell a customer when a product will be shipping. You make your best educated guess and go with it. The L5 was one of those things that completely surprises you. We spent nearly as much time fixing stupid problems with the grille as we did designing the entire speaker! The DSP system is about 10x more complicated than the L5 is, but despite this, I still think it will ship on time.

Mr. Nut,

Thanks, but we already have fist fights around here with employees arguing over who gets to take the system home. I guess it's kind of like which Road and Track editor gets to take the F50 home for the weekend.

We have tried the DSP electronics with different speaker models. It is designed to be very adaptable to different speaker designs. How much improvement you get is a complicated function of how the original passive system was designed. In the long term (1 year +) we will definitely be offering different versions of the DSP box for other speaker products.

Mr. Mental,

Sub/sat systems were originally designed as a cost savings exercise. The subwoofer had a dual voice coil woofer with a passive crossover. The satellite cabinets are much smaller than standard floor standing cabinets. This saved a lot of money. These systems were a full range speaker in three cabinets. The subwoofer and satellites couldn't be mixed and matched. Later it was discovered that a large segment of the population liked this system design because of the small size.

Over time the subwoofers gradually changed into powered models with single voice coil woofers. Once this happened, companies that just manufactured subwoofers started popping up. Existing speaker manufacturers started building powered subwoofers that were not tied to any particular satellite speakers. Customers could then mix and match different subwoofers with different satellite speakers to make a sub/sat system.

The bottom line is that sub/sat means different things to different people depending on how long they've been in the business. This is one of the reasons the DSP system is not called a sub/sat system. Calling it a full range system in two boxes clarifies things.
post #42 of 540
Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Hidley
The bottom line is that sub/sat means different things to different people depending on how long they've been in the business. This is one of the reasons the DSP system is not called a sub/sat system. Calling it a full range system in two boxes clarifies things.
I dunno. Seems more confusing to me. What's that saying, "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck......." It's kind a like saying "that's not a speaker, it's a sound making box with drivers and a crossover in it". Or kinda like the fact that a W2 has one woofer and a W1 has two woofers. I don't see why "sub/sat" is such a bad nomenclature. They still call exotic speakers "speakers" even though that category also includes $50/pr garbage. To paraphrase Mr Jean Baptiste Emanuel Zorg "Never be afraid of what you are, you're a sub/sat, be proud".
post #43 of 540
Joel:

Is Jack calling you mental???:)
post #44 of 540
That's *Mister* Mental to you!!! Hey, at least he didn't all me "assmaster" :)

Speaking of which, how about "Modular/Interdependent Digitally Controlled Audio Monitor System"? Sub/Sat my butt, we've got ourselves a MIDCAMS! Very catchy and sure to take off, if you ask me. ;)
post #45 of 540
Thread Starter 
jack, that's good news!

can u clarifiy if this is what u've said:

2xsatellites + 1xpowered sub module + 1xamp(w/ built-in processor) = $5.2K?

additional powered sub module = $1.6K?

would like to see the pic of this finisned system w/ sub module.
post #46 of 540
Here's an interesting question. Are the satellites errr, um....high frequency modules shielded? I guess it wouldn't be that important for most people these days.
post #47 of 540
implying that a single could be used for a center? Doesn't seem like that would be their purpose...geared more toward stereo, no?
post #48 of 540
Wow, just came across this thread. I have been following the DEQX (had the chance to buy early on but didn't take the plunge) and to have it integrated this way at that prospective cost is amazing. Very, very cool.
post #49 of 540
Billie,

Yes, your price comments are correct.

I probably won't be able to post any new phots for about a week and a half.

Mr. Mental,

The satellites are shielded. The bass module is not. The satellites are designed to be used for any channel in an audio system. For the best possible performance, the satellite would be stood up on the TV, however with the super high slope crossovers between the midrange and tweeter, if the satellite is layed down on its side there will be almost no change in frequency response as the listener moves from side to side.
post #50 of 540
If one is using a processor, would they bass manage the center channel, or MUST you have that sub for the center channel as well? If bass managed, would is the -3db point for a satellite?

Ran
post #51 of 540
Ran,

The system could be set up either way. The center satellite could be bass managed in the surround processor or a bass module could be put on that channel and then it would be set to large in the surround processor. The same goes for the rear channels. The fronts must have the bass module and be set to large.

BTW, here are the official product names for each part of the system.

The satellite speaker is an XdS.

The bass module is an XdW.

The DSP processor/digital amplifier module is an XdA.
post #52 of 540
Ran,

The -3dB point of the XdS is completely a function of the filters we choose in the XdA. This will probably end up somewhere between 80-110Hz. The higher the frequency, the greater the dynamic range the XdS will have, but it makes things somewhat harder to integrate.
post #53 of 540
Perhaps an automated (or user selectable) setup could be made in the XdA so that if no subwoofer is attached to it, the high pass is set to, say, 60Hz, allowing the preamp bass management to do the main work with a suggested crossover of ~80-120Hz. If one subwoofer is attached to the XdA, the crossover is at 80Hz, because if you have only one sub, you probably don't need a ton of dynamic range. Then, if you have two subwoofers attached for stereo, you can get away with, say, a 120Hz crossover without losing stereo imaging/integration with the byproduct being greater dynamic range for HT or larger rooms.

Small room stereo system - 2.1 at 80Hz digital filters all around
Small room HT system - 6.2 with 60Hz DSP filter as backup for 80-120Hz external management), 120Hz for left/right
Medium room HT system - 6.3 with 80Hz digital filters all around
Large room stereo system - 2.2 with 120Hz digital filters
Large room HT system - 6.6 with 120Hz digital filters all around.

Alternatively, would it not make sense to be able to run the bass signal from the center and/or rears and move it to the sub module attached to the main left/right XdA? Can a sub module accept two WiFi signals? Or, could there be two or more RCA inputs on the back of the sub for combining multiple bass signals? That way, left/right rear could be attached to the left/right front subs allowing the DSP crossovers in the loop to work their magic. Or the center could be run to 1 or 2 subwoofers also tied to the front speakers.
post #54 of 540
Also, Jack, any chance of a "tower" form factor, maybe with one of those sub modules built into each tower? Some of us just like the tower option, such as my T6s. It would be nice to have a stylish, compact tower than can move as much air or close to it as the Evos. The Evos are great, but not exactly a chick magnet.
post #55 of 540
Mr. Mental,

It is technically possible for the XdA to detect different things about the setup and make the appropriate changes automatically. We considered a lot of different scenarios and ultimately decided that we didn't want to end up with a system like BMW's i-drive. When it works, it's great. When it doesn't work you want to throw away the car.

There is no reason to put bass management into the XdA. The surround processor can just as easily pull the bass out of the surrounds and center and send it to the left and right front channels. At this point the XdA will route the bass to the XdW. The XdAs for the center and rear channels will be high passsing the XdSs connected to them at a very steep slope slightly higher in frequency than the bass management filter in the surround processor is already doing it.

There are no plans for a tower model at this time. Every indication from dealers, rep, consumers, etc. that are actually buying and selling speakers says that tower speakers are dead. Especially with the price of plasma TVs dropping, everyone wants speaker systems to be an inconspicuous as possible.
post #56 of 540
Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Hidley
Mr. Mental,

It is technically possible for the XdA to detect different things about the setup and make the appropriate changes automatically. We considered a lot of different scenarios and ultimately decided that we didn't want to end up with a system like BMW's i-drive. When it works, it's great. When it doesn't work you want to throw away the car.
Well, having some crossover options that you could switch manually would be nice if automation isn't realistic.
Quote:

There is no reason to put bass management into the XdA. The surround processor can just as easily pull the bass out of the surrounds and center and send it to the left and right front channels. At this point the XdA will route the bass to the XdW. The XdAs for the center and rear channels will be high passsing the XdSs connected to them at a very steep slope slightly higher in frequency than the bass management filter in the surround processor is already doing it.
I guess that's my point. If you don't have an adjustable high pass on the midrange, you can't choose the most appropriate one for your situation. And, if it cuts in at, say, 110Hz but you have a fixed 80Hz crossover, you'll lose some info and/or lose some quality. Though that may be minimal, it's kind of a bummer to lose anything on something this good. As for bass management, if the unit is lowpassing at 80-120Hz, it *is* doing partial bass management. The trick is getting that bass *to* a subwoofer so that you can just run large and make better use of the on-board DSP crossovers. That's where an additional RCA input would work really well so you could run the center/rears full range without *needing* to buy an additional woofer(s). Though, I suppose there are worse reasons to buy more subs.
Quote:

There are no plans for a tower model at this time. Every indication from dealers, rep, consumers, etc. that are actually buying and selling speakers says that tower speakers are dead. Especially with the price of plasma TVs dropping, everyone wants speaker systems to be an inconspicuous as possible.
Huh. I didn't get the memo on that. I thought slim, attractive towers were still "in". I guess I'm old-fashioned, but I'd rather have the slim tower than a monitor on a stand. After all, it would be a shame to just toss these on a shelf, so since they need to be out in the room to get the performance, I'd *personally* rather have them sitting on an integrated sub than having an outboard subwoofer. I supposed that's like getting a date with Halle Berry and not liking clothes she's wearing, but hey, as long as we're dreaming.......
post #57 of 540
I tend to agree that tower speakers are slowly falling by the wayside and that manufacturers would probably be better served by trying to derive better and better performance from a smaller form factor. No, ya can't cheat the laws of physics, but then again, the mass market doesn't know physics, doesn't care about physics, and just want teeny tiny speakers next to that plasma.

As for me, yes, my bias is toward sub/sat systems...as if you couldn't tell.

Ran
post #58 of 540
Confusing...

You don't call it a subwoofer, but the sat needs a bass module to become full range, set to 'large'.

Sounds like no difference.

Put another way, I think that I'm sure it sounds 'different', just not convinced it sounds 'better'.

The processing power of this DSP needs to be rather huge to pull off what's claimed.

Where can I hear a demo?
post #59 of 540
The consensus I got by Nousaine, Pinkerton, Pierce (and others on this forum) in the question of full range vs. sub/sat posted on audio high end newsgroup as well as on this forum is that the right place for bass is almost never in the same place as for mid and tweeter; therefore, full range integrated speakers are generally not desirable for the best full range response. Perhaps, Jack can comment on it.
post #60 of 540
Alimental,

These "slim towers" that you say are "in".....what woofer size reside in these towers? 6.5inch? 5.25inch? 4.5inch? Unless a tower has at least a 10inch woofer, IMO it is NOT full-range. Merely, a tall and skinny bookshelf/monitor, but a monitor (in frequency response) nevertheless :) Made to crossover at 70-90hz.
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