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Metallic Silver/ MississippiMud screen intructions - Page 15

post #421 of 452
Thread Starter 
[quote=BGrigg]Hello,

A buddy of mine has an Optoma ep739 projector is using the wall above his fireplace as the screen. I was thinking of getting him a bucket of paint for Christmas, but after reading the ingredients & instructions, I'm thinking of maybe just getting him a HD giftcard of $50 or $75 and then going with him when he wants to actually paint the wall, rather than have the mixed bucket of paint sit around for a month or more.

Couple questions though with regards to the wall being above the fireplace. Will the heat of the fireplace help or hurt us when painting/drying? Also, and probably more importantly, there are 2 grated vents in the middle of where the projected screen will be.

Whoa. Let's stop there and "reflect". Whoops. Can't do a good job of that with a "Grate", even a flat sided one with slots at the bottom. If it was raised enough to make any difference as to the amount of ventilation it would allow (CFM) it would produce a noticible shadow across the screen around it's edges. While this might work in a commercial setting with a huge screen viewed from a distance, but in a Home setting? Such would be pretty much a slap in the face as far as quality viewing is concerned.

So I'm putting together a viable alternative, in a design I myself would not hesitate using. I'm assuming the inclusion of the Vents in the original equation was desired because you(He?) does not want to give up whatever size is available over that Fireplace....inclusive of the "Vent" area.

So I'll be addressing that issue.

You came onto this thread asking about both surface application choices as well as "Paint" so I'll assume you (He?) does want to paint. In a "Normal World", if I was presented the problem, I'd first notice if the Fireplace is built into a abutment enclosure (Framed out Column) or if it was a "Flat Wall" variety. If a Column type, I'd suggest relocating the vents to each respective side, covering the holes and overlaying a material like 1/4" Drywall cut to your desired screen's dimensions.

That material will be smooth, readily accept both primer and paint (Duh?) can be firmly affixed directly to the existing wall at the perimeters with drywall screws, then the MS/MM (or perhaps MMud-SE) painted directly "On the wall" with either rolling or spraying.

Flat wall? Can't envision or contemplate moving those Vent Grates? Well the solution to all that is to effect a Screen Veneer overlayed on a substrate rigidly affixed to the Wall. One that would stand off that wall at least 2", with "Top to Bottom" pleneums for the vent areas, and side blocking as well to prevent wayward glances into the area existing between the wall and the rear of the screen. In effect, the screen will be an assembly about 2.5" thick, consisting of 7 vertical "2x2s", two of each creating the aforementioned Pleneums. Two provide the cosmetic "Side View Blocking" aspect, while all work to provide the necessary rigidity and support for the substrate, which should be 1/2" MDF.

The entire assembly could be either screwed into place, or hung with the French Cleat method. I'll try to provide a somewhat more detailed explanation via a simple line Drawing, edited into this space soon.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BGrigg View Post

The only other drawback I see to your solution is his enthusiasm with the ~5 coats of paint, not to mention the sanding. I'm sure I'll be enlisted to help out though.

Well don't be alarmed. I'll be here for both procedural and moral support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BGrigg View Post

Thanks in advance, and Happy Holidays if you get this in the next couple of days.

Brian

When I return, I will hope to see more info from you.

Size of wall area (Width and Height)
Height of Fireplace Mantel
Seating distance / configuration
Lighting scheme***

With the "O", you do not want a "Bright White", or any surface that might even have a hint of potential Hot Spotting in it's pedigree. If easy is what your (He?) is looking for, then a variant on the latest derivative of the MM Silver/Pearl/UPW combination would be a good choice indeed. It's commonly known as RS-MaxxMudd, and it's components are less expensive the the original SM/MM MMud-SE concepts, and application via rolling or spraying is easier as well.

As for heat issues, if your Mantel's edge protrudes at least 8", you'll have nothing to be concerned about using the Materials suggested. Dry MDF, laminated with 1/4" Drywall (via a Troweled on adhesive), and supported (Braced if you will...) with 7 "Top-to-Bottom"(ie: vertical) screwed in 2"x2"s will not warp, and the paint will not be affected any more than would be a House Paint applied to the area over a Fireplace. The screens surface, once cured, can be "Wet Wiped" clean with quick swipes with a slightly damp rag, so dust (...if not Soot, Heaven forbid!!!) accumulations can be kept at bay easier than a Fabric or Vinyl Mfg Screen under those circumstances.

There are other available routes to take, as in available surfaces as well as paint choices. Much depends on the answers I get to the questions I posed above. But no other material combo will come less expensive AND be specifically "engineered" for the application at hand than the "Construction materials" suggested in this post. You've got Lumens to work with, a inkling of Contrast (...that could use an assist....) and the smoothness of the "DLP" presentation to help out. All that needs to be done is to tailor make all the aspects of potential materials, equipment and room considerations into a well balanced solution.

No problemo as far as I'm concerned.

If done correctly and trimmed with a little thought toward cosmetics , an "Over the Fireplace" screen can both perform with excellence and look excellent as well.



..................but*




Those damn Vents are wieghing heavily on my mind. Don't let them become a "Spoiler"
post #422 of 452
WOW!! I didn't expect you to be so thorough! But I'm glad you took the time, thank you.

Yeah, I can see where putting any type of new vent/vent cover would be less than ideal. But at the same time, I do not see him/us moving the vents off to the side like you suggested. So I guess constructing a screen of MDF (or whatever else) and attaching it to the wall would probably be the better (and easier) solution.

The wall dimensions are (screen area): 110" x 55"
Fireplace Mantle: 38" high
Current Viewing: 12' from the back 3 seat couch, but there is also a 2 seat couch on the side wall which is much closer. But primary viewing will be the back couch.
Throw Distance: 180" / ~15' (And currently there is some overlap on the mantle & ceiling with the projected image.)

Now because of the holidays the distance of the back couch & projector may change (decrease) after they get rid of the tree in a week or so. And although we don't have a light meter, ambient light is definitely an issue during the day. They currently have venetian blinds which are VERY transparent, which make the projected image almost invisible if there's direct sunlight. He knows he has to come up with a better solution for that.

Please just keep in mind, the easier and less money spent the better. And I'm sure you hear that all the time! If it was me, I'd be willing to put a little more effort into it to get a better result, but I know he won't (even with help). But then again, I'm more picky, he thought it was 'ok' with the wallpaper on there (non-print wallpaper) while I had to bite my tongue. I'm still trying to convince him to upgrade to component or DVI from his HD DVR as he just watchest the analog channels! I'll switch to the HD channels, and he'll complain that it's in widescreen format and he lost image area on top & bottom. He thinks bigger is better, can't see the quality difference.

Well, thanks again for you help. I have to go out and finish...er, start my Christmas shopping. Hopefully their dog (house/dog sitting) doesn't bring do the tree while I'm gone!
post #423 of 452
Thread Starter 
OK. Cheap it will be. At least as cheap as possible.

In DIY, over the years I've /we've all seen many initiates express how whatever they were watching was so superior and so much bigger than anything they had before that they were satisfied with whatever they had "for cheap" and could not justify making changes....especially if it cost "Mo Money".

In this case, I'd estimate the expenses to be:

MDF $15.00

2"x2"s $15.00

2"x4"s $ 5.00

Drywall $5.00

1-1/4" & 2-1/2" Drywall Screws $9.00

DIY RS-MaxxMudd Mix $35.00

Painting supplies $15.00
(rollers - sanding sponge)

Total $99.00
( Velvet Wrapped MDF Baseboard Trim? add additional $35.00 )

If this "Guy" wants to maintain the potential of having the biggest 4:3 presentation possible (...seems obvious if he's been putting up with "Vents" within his image. )
then to do so using a base substrate larger than what can be obtained using a 4' x 8' sheet of something will require that the estimate be upped at least $60-70.00

At that "price Point" some larger 60" x 96 materials can be substituted for the 1/4" drywall. Trouble is, he'd pay a big premium to just gain an additional 2"-3" height from a 48" high material. "ANYTHING" used would require some type of special Paint to effect the kind of performance your (His?) situation as described above demands. But with only 55" of height to work with, I cannot really see where he has any valid argument about NOT going to a 16:9 format.

At least we have a semblance of the Lumens required to take the application into the next level. But I've also found Optoma's published Lumen specs to be at least 40% lower that stated, so we must consider allowing for that. Still no worries though, IMO

Let's see...., your going to be sitting approx 12' - 14' back from a screen location whose lower edge will start at 41" high. For "maxxed out" performance, having a 50" x 67" screen area would generate a 87" diagonal Screen. A darker RS-MaxxMudd mix would conserve and use the lumens provided more efficiently that a DIY Black Flame mix, but the newer version called Silver Fire might work even better at the appropriate hue/mixture. With either, anything except direct sunlight or direct bright incandescent will not fail to deliver an image that is entirely watch-able in the daytime or with "reading level" lighting at night.

If you want size combined with easy, some $$$ trade off is required because trying to "seam" any material necessitates time and effort dealing with that seam, and even more expense as far as the amount of lumber required to back that area. If your friend really new the score, and used his space to "BIGGEST" advantage, he'd go with a 48" x 85" screen, (98" diagonal @ 16:9) and although he'd lose only 2' in screen height @ 4:3, he'd gain 11" in width @16:9.

He's not going to have a bigger image otherwise, just one that avoids "Bars" in a 4:3 mode.

I guess at this point, a conversation between both of you needs to address the coming desire for him to "want" the best presentation possible, and be able to look to the future as well. And do it on a essentially reasonable budget. Or will he stick to his Guns and try to "upgrade" without doing so in a manner that will impress or satisfy no one but himself.

Harsh sentiment, that last....., but at any level, there should be a minimum effort and expense expected to achieve something worthy of note beyond a Hasbro "See & Show" projected onto a wall. (...yeah, I'm that old... ) If I was there...those damn vents WOULD be relocated if they 'could be' logistically. That frees up a ton of wall, and that nullifies the need for any additional substrate. Crap. The cost of refinishing the Wall surgery would be less than the expense he's facing if he elects to try to fill up that space with a maximum sized piece of material built out 2" from the wall.

Something must give, (height size) or the Budget/Work aspect must be advanced to acquire a decent outcome lest this become nothing more than an exercise in "Make do & gross Compromise".
post #424 of 452
Thread Starter 
No "Lump of Coal" in your AVS Stocking this!




I hope it gives you a good start. Of course it can be adjusted to create a 4:3 Format as well, but simple 'figrin' should show your friend that in the long and short run, he'll enjoy a larger image overall more often than not, and remind him that soon his Cable/Satellite will be broadcasting virually everything in a 16:9 format.

So tell him to "GET WITH THE PICTURE!!!"

post #425 of 452
MAN, again with the level of detail! Wow!

You're preaching to the choir with regards to 16:9 vs 4:3. Even when he buys his DVD's he gets fullscreen, and I've NEVER bought a FS DVD, and I still haven't bitten the bullet on a projector and still watch them on my 27" (I know, you're all laughing at me). Hell, even the commercials are being developed in HD widescreen format now.

But I'm kind of getting confused when you talk about he'd be better off with a 16:9 screen. I understand the concept, but maybe I'm missing something. I thought that decision had to be made when purchasing the projector? Because if I were to get a projector today, I'd probably get the Optoma ep1690 which is 16x9, high lumens (although I got your comment on Optoma's stated lumens), and in my budget. Because even though his ep739 states it will do both full & widescreen formats, when you switch it to widescreen, all it does is compress vertically it seems. The width stays the same. Unless I'm missing a setting or something here? But I do understand because he has more width than height on the wall because of the fireplace, he'd be better off with WS anyway and wouldn't lose much size with FS, I just thought he had to make that decision before he purchased the projector.

Also, why the MDF & the drywall? To reinforce it? But I will go over all of this myself, and then with him and try to twist his arm. I had I had an uphill battle with the ~5 coats, now I'm going to tell him we need to build a screen! I will see what I can do.

Thanks again for all your advice!

Brian
post #426 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BGrigg View Post

MAN, again with the level of detail! Wow!

You're preaching to the choir with regards to 16:9 vs 4:3. Even when he buys his DVD's he gets fullscreen, and I've NEVER bought a FS DVD, and I still haven't bitten the bullet on a projector and still watch them on my 27" (I know, you're all laughing at me). Hell, even the commercials are being developed in HD widescreen format now.

You are wise to accept the future of formatting.

But I'm kind of getting confused when you talk about he'd be better off with a 16:9 screen. I understand the concept, but maybe I'm missing something. I thought that decision had to be made when purchasing the projector? Because if I were to get a projector today, I'd probably get the Optoma ep1690 which is 16x9, high lumens (although I got your comment on Optoma's stated lumens), and in my budget. Because even though his ep739 states it will do both full & widescreen formats, when you switch it to widescreen, all it does is compress vertically it seems. The width stays the same. Unless I'm missing a setting or something here? But I do understand because he has more width than height on the wall because of the fireplace, he'd be better off with WS anyway and wouldn't lose much size with FS, I just thought he had to make that decision before he purchased the projector.

Of course, one using a 16:9 native PJ makes perfect sense when viewing 16:9 content, but reality bespeaks the need for many to opt into Front Projection in the most affordable manner possible. Either the prior possesion of a Presentation PJ, or the shear affordibility of some of those machines these days weighs into the situation...that cannot be discounted. So you'll find a BUNCH of people on this Forum with 4:3 PJs running almost constantly in 16:9 mode, as well as a very many with 4:3 PJs who decided to format their screen to that perponderance toward 16:9 material. You are correct that if he uses all that width in a WS mode, then he loses very little in 4:3 anyway....he just has to deal with "Bars". But you did mention he buys all FS material, so it's becoming painfully apparent it won't change until someone really makes him feel out of touch. Relative or Friend...., Peer or Peon, someday he'll get a rise from someone who'll ask" "Why?". If it's someone he wants to impress, maybe..........?

But above all else, if he want's bigger, he'd be well advised to keep a open mind and do some 'figurin'


Also, why the MDF & the drywall? To reinforce it? But I will go over all of this myself, and then with him and try to twist his arm. I had I had an uphill battle with the ~5 coats, now I'm going to tell him we need to build a screen! I will see what I can do.

The two layers keep you from having to mud over the screw heads of screws attaching the MDF to the Studs/Furring Strips, and so being, give you an unblemished surface on which to paint. The same could be said of any material used as the screen surface. The MDF is for rigidity and workability. If you can find 1/4" MDF stock, that would be great. But 1/2" overlaid with 1/4" drywall would be the most easiest thing I can suggest. If it starts out dry when you hang it, and with the added veneer of Drywall, warping on such a buttressed framework should be non existant.

Although to someone whose been using a blank wall with Grates for a screen, such recommendations might seem like a bunch to bother with. Do yourself and him a favor...let him SEE some specific examples published on this Forum. Let him see some of the pretty classy Fireplace installations AVS'ers have done. That alone should show him how terribly out of place two offending structures like Louvered Grates would be / are. We can but hope.


Thanks again for all your advice!

Brian

Well Brian, in closing let me also suggest that you relate to him that the info he might get from any of us here on AVS' DIY Screens is given with his best interests in mind. For any DIY'er to suggest any course of action that was not intended to get something done, and done right, goes against the whole idea of having such a DIY Community. Cheap is good, but not at the "expense" of the bare minimum of quality. Yes, at times, one must accept less. But "Grates", No way Jose' !

In simple language.....; "We care, so we give." Pretty good sentiment at any time, but especially relevant given the Season at hand.
.
post #427 of 452
To anyone who has more experience with this SM/ MM , Id like to know if a coat of poly in matte finish would add a little punch to my colors. I went thru the entire process as mississippi diagragmed, and although I think there was a better picture with just 2 coats of mudd rather than 3, I am not about to start over just yet. And should the metallic undercoat be completely covered, or vaguely seen thru the topcoats. Any help would be appreciatted. I also apologize if I did not enter this forum properly. Ive been a member for a while, but Im more of a reader than a participater.
post #428 of 452
Thread Starter 
A little nudge. A couple of recent Threads concerning this application havegenerated a few PM'd requests for info.

Go to the thread's beginning
post #429 of 452
ok i have read the posts and i jumped the gun before reading the whole thing this is my ???

i have a optima hd70

1000 lummens

4000:1 contrast

screen is about 8x5

noncontroled light but pretty dark at night

i made the origenal 1:1:1 MM mix with sm undercoat
but have not painted yet should i use the RS-MaxxMudd mix?

if so can i mix something in the 1:1:1 MM to turn it to RS-MaxxMudd

or do i need to scrap and start over

i will use a roller to paint

any advice to this would be nice you guys rock with all the work u put in so thank u for the work

sorry for any misspelled words
post #430 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerrymelton View Post

ok i have read the posts and i jumped the gun before reading the whole thing this is my ???

i have a optima hd70
1000 lummens
4000:1 contrast
screen is about 8x5

noncontroled light but pretty dark at night

i made the origenal 1:1:1 MM mix with sm undercoat
but have not painted yet should i use the RS-MaxxMudd mix?

It certainly could not hurt you.

Quote:
if so can i mix something in the 1:1:1 MM to turn it to RS-MaxxMudd
or do i need to scrap and start over.
i will use a roller to paint

I'd need to know the quantities you used to make up the 1:1:1 mix, but for RS-MaxxMudd, all that is needed to get up to speed is Delta Silver Metallic and Water based Polyurethane (Satin) Adding a small amount of Antique Metallic Gold will also prevent/correct the slight push toward Blue the SM imparts to the White/Pearl mix.

Since your a "Roller", you most likely will not need to add any additional water. The POly will help the paint roll out smoothly. Just be sure you use good rolling technique because any such mix will tend to highlight errors such as Roller marks.



Quote:
sorry for any misspelled words

Sawrite. Here's a tip. Keep your Email program on with a "Compose Email" window engaged. After your finished with your Post, but before you hit "Submit Reply" , copy your text, paste it into the Composition, then hit "Spell Check". Afterwards, re-copy and re-paste back onto the Forum's Reply field and your reputation will remain intact.

(There used to be "Spell Check" as an option on here, but the new Format does not offer it. )
post #431 of 452
Not meaning to go OT... but an easier way to spell check over copying and pasting to an email or text program is if you have IE, download iespell. It will spell check even forum posts before you hit submit. You have to go to tools and click iespell though, it's not automatic.

I believe Firefox has a built in spell checker but I'm not sure.
post #432 of 452
Thanks for the quick response

my 1:1:1 mix has

1quart of Behr Ultra Pure White no.1005(HD didn't have "Ceiling")<---- hope it will work

1 quart of Behr "White Opal" Perlescence

1 quart of Behr Deep Base (1300)

and that's it what else do i need to add and what quantity??

do i still use SM for under coat??

thanks for the help i am going to start painting tomorrow i will try to get some picks up while i am working and finishing screens if u want i am so exited its like x-mas

if any more tips come in your head feel free to let me know u are the man!!!

p.s. Firefox does have a built in spell check its awesome
post #433 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry melton View Post

Thanks for the quick response

my 1:1:1 mix has

1quart of Behr Ultra Pure White no.1005(HD didn't have "Ceiling")<---- hope it will work

1 quart of Behr "White Opal" Perlescence

1 quart of Behr Deep Base (1300)

and that's it what else do i need to add and what quantity??

Good 'ol MississippiMudd That mix is a DIY version of GOO CRT White (Base & Top Coat combined. Please note that it was almost always used either on a Mirror, or over a pure layer of Behr Silver Metallic. But No.1, you had to lay down a virtually perfect layer of the SM, because streaks or Roller marks on a Silver surface are extremely contrast-y, and when you try to coat such with MMudd (...a semi-translucent white mix) if there are any such blemishes, you either cannot cover them up completely (blend them in/under)with the proper thickness, or you have to put too much on to do so, and therein eliminate any potential beneficial effect the underlaying SM surface has to offer.

Rolling Behr SM is a -Beeeetch-. Going to Mirrors was a desperate attempt to forgo the "SM Rollin Blues". But with the ramped up reflectivity and exqusite detail rendering came less contrast assistance than many would otherwise have. Enter MMudd-SE (Silver Edition) It is your current Mix with 2-3 oz Behr SM added. That's not a lot, but the Flake properties and dark Gray hue of the Behr SM wouldn't allow more than 4 Oz in a 1:1:1 mix, and that amount pushed blue a bit and sometimes Hot Spotted (sparklies )

But at 2-3 Oz, it turned a White MMudd Mix into a mix that could really help out PJs with anemic CR ( 900:1 to 2000:1) Used on top a Mirror? Zowie!

IMO, you should first roll out a undercoat of Kilz2 Primer. Do a good job using a 1/2' nap Roller. 2 Coats minimum. Lightly sand the 2nd (or 3rd) coat when it's dry (give it at least 4-6 hours after last coat) , wipe clear of Dust, and roll on the Following;

1:1:1 Mix
1 - 8 oz bottle of Delta Ceramcoat Silver Metallic
16 oz. Minwax PolyAcrylic Waterbased Polyurethane
2 oz. FolkArt Antique Metallic Gold
......mixed throughly......diluted with pure water to Wall Paint slurry consistancy.

Apply using 3/8" nap Roller and good Rolling technique. DO NOT try to cover with the first coat. Just apply each vertical row evenly and using the same strokes and amount of overlap. Work the leading "wet edge" out to a "feathered edge" then load up and repeat.

Done rightly, you'll have a screen that has more gain than a ST-130, but which can also improve you perceived Contrast significantly without affecting your Whites. Colors? They'll be outstanding.



do i still use SM for under coat??

Only if you want to take a crack at "Painted-On Light Fusion", and your willing to accept the "SM" risks. But there are easier ways to accomplish the same goals, and doing it with this MMudd-SE / RS-MaxxMudd variant as a "All in one" Top Coat over a White base is one of 'em.

thanks for the help i am going to start painting tomorrow i will try to get some picks up while i am working and finishing screens if u want i am so exited its like x-mas

Well don't rush......contemplate and study before you "roll on".

if any more tips come in your head feel free to let me know u are the man!!!

p.s. Firefox does have a built in spell check its awesome


Yeah....I just tried it.
post #434 of 452
thanks for quick response few more ?? sorry i just want to make sure i do this right

Quote:


IMO, you should first roll out a undercoat of Kilz2 Primer. Do a good job using a 1/2' nap Roller. 2 Coats minimum. Lightly sand the 2nd (or 3rd) coat when it's dry (give it at least 4-6 hours after last coat) , wipe clear of Dust, and roll on the Following;

the Kilz2 primer do i use white or the one i turned gray for the SM???

Quote:


1:1:1 Mix
1 - 8 oz bottle of Delta Ceramcoat Silver Metallic
16 oz. Minwax PolyAcrylic Waterbased Polyurethane
2 oz. FolkArt Antique Metallic Gold

this formula needs no SM under lay? (so i would use white Kilz2 for under coat)

can i get the extra paint from HD??


thanks again for your patients with me
post #435 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerrymelton View Post

thanks for quick response few more ?? sorry i just want to make sure i do this right



the Kilz2 primer do i use white or the one i turned gray for the SM???

It must be White....bright White....to conserve light.



Quote:


this formula needs no SM under lay? (so i would use white Kilz2 for under coat)

The SM was intended to increase Contrast "significantly" without crushing Whites & colors. It dates to 2004, when such was critical if one was to hold one's head up to those who claimed CRTs were the only "real' PJs worth having/looking at. What was (...and still is...) cool is that a Screen....(...and a DIY one no less...) a purportedly "passive" device, could be so essential and critical in delivering improved images from "Ho Hum" PJs. These days, it just makes a great PJ look even better, and helps avoid the over-use of CR Enhancement Circuits and Auto Lens Apertures.

Quote:


can i get the extra paint from HD??

The MinWax Poly yes,but the Delta and FolkArt paints no. They must come from a Michael's or Hobby Lobby, or any well stocked Crafts/Artist supply outlet.


Quote:


thanks again for your patients with me

Oh no problem! Many of those I help wind up being someone's patient.
Not sure how many because of a built in reluctance by many to admit to mental health issues.

Good luck.


post #436 of 452
OK i got 2 coats up and i found some dents in the wall i am using a small paint brush to fill in dents the hair drying them
then i am wet sanding them flush probably not the right way but its working I'm going to end up with like 5-6 coats lol but it will be smooth lol
post #437 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerrymelton View Post

OK i got 2 coats up and i found some dents in the wall i am using a small paint brush to fill in dents the hair drying them
then i am wet sanding them flush probably not the right way but its working I'm going to end up with like 5-6 coats lol but it will be smooth lol

A High Contrast paint will always show you what you missed.

Just be sure to let the paint dry completely before you try to sand.

Images would be nice.
post #438 of 452
OK i got my last coat of kilz2 up is the texture good enough or do i need to keep sanding


got a spot on camera not on wall lol
post #439 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerrymelton View Post

OK i got my last coat of kilz2 up is the texture good enough or do i need to keep sanding

It looks pretty darn good to me, but around here, some people judge smoothness at 100x magnification.

A Glassy Smooth surface will only come about via additional light, fine grit sanding then a final coat over that. You know when you've got it, because even dry, the surface feels cool...almost wet.

A light sweeping touch will tell the tale as long as visually you see no obvious blemishes. The surface should be smooth to the touch.....; if not indeed "Glass-like", at least somewhat slippery smooth as you move your "Palm' over it.... with no trace of fuzziness, or coarseness. If it meets those criteria your good to go. If not, sweep sand the entire surface with a "Fine to Medium" Grit Sanding Sponge. (...if "Medium" use lighter pressure and longer strokes...)

A "slippery surface" means a completely textureless final result. Just be sure to make the first two sprayed coats very thin, but evenly sprayed. (60% overlap on each Row) so they too act like a "Primer" to help hold onto the subsequently (and slightly) heavier coats.

Keep spraying on Thin coats only until you can see no more "White" and the entire screen looks uniformly covered. Obviously, if you reach the "No more White showing" stage but see any unevenness in the coat, you have to at least go one more coat to effect the even-ing up.

OK, somehow you started getting some texture build up? That comes from shooting too far away. If so, you can very lightly sand the affected coat and then top coat over it. Won't hurt a thing. Agressive sanding yes....very light sweep sanding no.

Waiting patiently for the next report.


PS,
That's one 'ell of a rough texture on that Ceiling!!!
post #440 of 452
Object:
an 80" ambient light screen that can best the chromavue.
excellent black levels
excellent flesh tones
excellent white levels
and far less color crush on all levels

Mission:
use a blast from the past application
SM/MM with a few wrinkles from the present

Materials:
sintra/komatex (4mm) backed by wood frame (non-shrinking foam board adhesive)
pure pearl metallic basecoat.
pure semi-gloss polycrylic mid coat
silver fire top coat
3 inch black velvet border
1 inch brushed black aluminum outer frame
built in mid/high range speaker system.
free-standing table-top design.

wrinkles:
pure pearl metallic basecoat will replace the behr metallic basecoat which was a peta of an application.
- there are other reasons i'm choosing it over silver metallic or acrylic mirrors
- flesh tones, better color reproduction, and more consistent and wider viewing cone

pure semi-gloss polycrylic mid coat to recreate the acrylic mirror app without known ghosting.
- closer to a first surface mirror app but allowing the underlying metallics room to work

silver fire topcoat to replace the MM topcoat.
- for obvious reasons, an ambient light screen would not use a MM topcoat.

will it work?
- hopefully time and money are on my side and I can get started on this project soon.
post #441 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ididit2 View Post

Object:
an 80" ambient light screen that can best the chromavue.
excellent black levels
excellent flesh tones
excellent white levels
and far less color crush on all levels

Mission:
use a blast from the past application
SM/MM with a few wrinkles from the present

Materials:
sintra/komatex (4mm) backed by wood frame (non-shrinking foam board adhesive)
pure pearl metallic basecoat.
pure semi-gloss polycrylic mid coat
silver fire top coat
3 inch black velvet border
1 inch brushed black aluminum outer frame
built in mid/high range speaker system.
free-standing table-top design.

wrinkles:
pure pearl metallic basecoat will replace the behr metallic basecoat which was a peta of an application.
- there are other reasons i'm choosing it over silver metallic or acrylic mirrors
- flesh tones, better color reproduction, and more consistent and wider viewing cone

The Pearl will not have the same degree of reflectivity or contrast enhancement as a well done Silver Metallic. And unfortunately your a bit mistaken about both the Colors, Flesh Tones, and the Viewing Cone. Absolutely Silver owns the trophy for delivering such things when used in it's pure state. As a Under Coating that is. White Pearl Metallic isn't in the same league. In fact, consider this. The use of white Pearl was only intended to introduce more Metallic Content without overtly increasing the attenuation the "Gray Element" existing in the Silver Metallic already exhibits. Using those paints is a delicate balancing act....so use a net...lest you fall down into a Pit of despair. We neither of us want that to happen.

Virtually all of those things above will instead depend upon the SF Surface coating. With SF, and at your Screen size you just don't really need a underlying reflective base to boost Contrast UNLESS your really after the epitome of Ambient Light performance. SF handles that aspect quite well by itself. Rather, you want a VERY reflective White Base. Minimally, it should be a bright, Flat White such as what you get with Kilz-2. Easier (...and even better....) is the Thrifty White Hardboard with it's ultra smooth Semi-Gloss White surface. Nothing but nothing can top a Mirror..........and what ever you've heard, or from whomever you heard it from to the contrary, the viewing cone of a SF/Light Fusion application is among the very best you can ever hope for, topped out only by a pure Matte White. And that by only about 10 degrees.

Quote:


pure semi-gloss polycrylic mid coat to recreate the acrylic mirror app without known ghosting.

More disinformation. Although it was well intended, the "Ghosting" seen in just ONE member's test was due specifically to a "too Thin" coating of basic MMud, and the use of a CRT PJ. Even when aligned perfectly,(..as I'm sure they were...) the 3-lens system of a CRT does not match up well when it's surface focus point is compromised by returning light through a "too thin" Top coat. And where were those Ghosts spotted anyway? ONLY during a "Text Test" example, and only when compared to a flat white non-Fusion surface. Those "Halos" are never experienced by those who either have a Digital PJ, or CRT owners who get the amount (thickness) of the coating correct. One slightly skewered test does not warrant the determination that such a phenomena exists. To date, the existence of Ghosts (ing) is not a proven fact. Those who have actual full sized LF Screens know better. So "Boo-ya" t those Ghosts. (...now where did I put my Nuclear Particle Generator Gun?)


Quote:


- closer to a first surface mirror app but allowing the underlying metallics room to work

I would not bother. The White Pearl doesn't have enough "punch' by itself, and the Semi-Gloss Poly will have more of a muting effect than a enhancement effect when covered over with a darker SF Top Coating. What you really need is as bright a under layment as possible from the get go. A SF coating will most definitely attenuate the light as it passes through, so you don't want to add anymore attenuation by having the absorbed light hit anything else but a tight, non-permeable bright reflective surface. A 2nd Surface Mirror does slightly attenuate the light it receives very slightly, yet does so while reflecting far, far more of that attenuated light back into the surface image than anything else save Mylar. When the Top Coat is a darker Ambient Light mix such as Silver Fire, such attenuation serves to both deepen contrast because it (SF & a Mirror) attenuates darker light more than it does lighter waveforms, while NOT attenuating Colors and Whites as proportionately much so. The Mirror will accomplish that job best, and when that attenuated light re-fuses with the initial image, balanced saturation and subtle shadow detail is enhanced.



Quote:


silver fire topcoat to replace the MM topcoat.
- for obvious reasons, an ambient light screen would not use a MM topcoat.

The original SM/MM actually performed that function better than any Gray screen had before it, because the White MMUd was so very translucent, allowing the absolute most gain to be had from the SM undercoating to be had, and subsequently all the other benefits that the SM brought into the equation.
The image below came from a Z1 w/only 600 mfg rated Lumens

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...2&d=1075472507

When 'on screen' Contrast is High, there is always a natural increase in ambient light performance. SM/MM bought that to the table. Too bad it was such a PITA to Roll. But actually, with the advent of the Wagner, and the ability to substitute the Behr SM with the lighter Delta SM, I'm most likely remiss in not ing a SSM/SFL Screen just to see how well it would fare against the recent Ambient Applications. Well, not really, because despite what it may seem otherwise, I'm a strong proponent for getting the best results possible in the easiest manner possible. Cheapest way too, BTW.
It's just a shame that you sometimes have to forgo one or more of the preceding to accomplish a specific goal. Even more a shame is that you won't do that by compromising known worrking methods and materials.


Quote:


will it work?
- hopefully time and money are on my side and I can get started on this project soon.


You asked.....so there it is. My advice is this. If using Silver Fire....or ANY such Ambient light mix, and your desiring the absolute best Ambient Light Performance....then bite down on your Lip and get a Acrylic Mirror. I see a significant difference (lessor) between the TWH base and a Mirror, and even more so with a basic Bright White Kilz -2 surface.

If the Mirror option (...about the same as a similar sized sheet of DW Laminate) is just too expensive, then all you have to do is get a sheet of TWH, squirt 3-4 coats of SF on it, and "ididit2" will have 'diditright".
post #442 of 452
Wow. What a response.

First let me say that I often find within myself - the voice of the road less traveled. And while it doesn't always work out for the best, it often teaches you far more than the tried and true.

When it comes to diy screens, my successes have come from thinking outside of the box while my feet remain firmly planted within the box.

First let me say that I do have first hand knowledge of many of the things elaborated on or applications you are defending. They are (mirror, silver, metallics, etc) excellent applications in their own right. But my goal here is to revisit/rediscover them in a slightly different way to see, if we've missed, dismissed, passed over, or left something uncovered along the way.

I'm well aware that there is a company right now that makes a composite silver panel on one side and a gloss white panel on the opposite side that would serve as the sort of basecoat (silver side) for a darker more ambient silver fire application. However, i'm also aware that it's $200 cost plus shipping is not what the general diy is after.

Taking a second look at the basecoat:
Pearl Metallic vs Silver Metallic - I do agree that you will get a greater amount of reflectivity with silver.
It is however, the known silver/grey caveats that I'm looking to get away from. I would prefer to allow the semi-translucent RGB film of Silver Fire to be the palette - not interfered by the greyness of the Silver metallic. My hope is that a darker shade of Silver Fire can then be used.

Consider these two screens:
a) Acrylic Mirror base + medium Silver Fire shade
b) TWH + medium Silver Fire shade

Which of these two is visually darker? screen a.
Which of these two has better white levels. screen ?
Which of these two has better flesh tones? screen ?
Which of these two has more color correct from it's whitest white to it's deepest blacks?
And even if screen a has the deepest blacks AND the whitest whites, is it more/less color correct at the shades in between?

For now, I will leave the ghosting and viewing cone equation out as I search for a suitable pearl basecoat to work with. One that isn't a peta to roll or spray.

Before I leave, I'd like to clear up one misconception that should be opened up for testing:
Does a gloss white baseboard (TWH) really have greater white level potential than a pearl white basecoat?
From what I have witnessed, the answer to that is no.

diditright can be certainly be obtained by diditadifferentway...
post #443 of 452
Over the past couple of years... the number of viable metallic solutions are have increased and so too have quality of those solutions.

We now have metallic paints, coatings, and finishers made from mica flakes, and even platings and surfacers which contain the actual metal itself.

This allows us to get away from the craft paints and on to companies who cater to many professional and architectural firms.

I am currently looking over the those selections. However, in the end it will likely be one that's available (easily sourced and reasonably priced) to most diy folks.

I do currently have a front runner in mind and I may well be choosing something other white pearl as a basecoat.
post #444 of 452
Why is it that bigger always seems better in our diy screen world?

Well the 80" tabletop has now become a 92" table top (made to sit freely on a 54" Z innovations glass tv stand).

I called ahead of time and ordered a sheet of 4mm Sintra/Komatex to be pre-cut from my local plastics distributorship. Now as luck would have it... upon picking up my order, I noticed a pallet out of the corner of my eye with 4x8 sheets that looked like they were faced or laminated with metal on both sides.

Now wouldn't you know it! One side was baked with white and the other was brushed alumimum. And the price? Less than $90 a sheet!

Now aside from being white and metal facings... at less than 3/16 inch thick, it's most appealing features are just how rigid and light this product is.

Now back to the reality that I'd already spent my money to have this Sintra/Komatex pre-cut; I relunctantly took it home and mounted it to my table top frame. It looks great, but a plain jane white sintra screen simply will not do for day or night time viewing. And certainly it will not do for the ambient light flowing into the living room.

So now it's on to the basecoat, for which I have chosen not to go with white pearl.
Instead, I will be using Platinum - Modern Masters.
It is a fine architectural paint product and costs just under $100 a gallon. You purchase it in quarts as well for about $30 a quart.
post #445 of 452
Thread Starter 
This Thread contains lots of relevance in today's "metallic Reflective Screen" environment.
post #446 of 452
What is the largest affordable plastic mirror size? After all these years of waiting to try one I did, now I am selling the house and it's stuck to the wall I need another one
post #447 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by swatkins View Post

What is the largest affordable plastic mirror size? After all these years of waiting to try one I did, now I am selling the house and it's stuck to the wall I need another one


Hi Steve!

96" x 48" (cut to 85" x 48" = 16:9) is available almost at any Sheet Plastic Supplier. Plaskolite doesn't mfg the larger sizes anymore except on special order.

However, there is one location that is the exception. San Diego Plastics has 60" x 96" and 60" x 120" (2.35:1 material!) sheets of 1/8" Acrylic.

The larger sizes are worth the extra cost, which is surprisingly small. Shipping however will amount to about the same cost as the Sheet itself.

If you have to settle for a 98" diagonal image, just design your new Theater so that you sit a little closer on the front row. Close in (9'), a 98" diagonal appears the same size in comparison as a 120" screen from 12"-13' away.
post #448 of 452
i wasn't necessarily takin' about mirrors but since the premise was to create a better basecoat and have it's behavior capture the positives of a mirror...
i'll let it slide

oops this aint my thread...

carry on.
post #449 of 452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ididit2 View Post

i wasn't necessarily takin' about mirrors but since the premise was to create a better basecoat and have it's behavior capture the positives of a mirror...
i'll let it slide

oops this aint my thread...

carry on.

Awwww.......don't go away! It's all good....and anything that can closely mimic a Mirror's reflectivity (...if not it's 1/8" clear depth...) is another alternative to the use of "hard to apply" metallic paint. That amounts to being "Mo Bedder".

I've had many the opportunity to see the difference there is when a Mirror is employed with either a White, Gray, or Metallic Based Gray Top Coat, as opposed to a "flat" (no depth) reflective surface. With a White or basic Gray top coat, the difference amounts to a substantial increase in 3-Dimensionality, or in even more descriptive terminology, an enhancement of apparent "curvature" and it's subtle shadow depth graduations.

A "Flat" metallic Gray surface, or one that is simply a "Bright Reflective White" that underlays a Top Coat is either helping to retain the screen's reflective intensity by offsetting absorption and attenuation (White) , and/or enhancing Contrast by maintaining the degree of Black Levels the PJ is producing (Gray). Basically, as stated before by myself and many others, this amounts to retaining (...or producing...) the "PoP & Sizzle" we so desire to see from "The Big Picture".

For those who desire / need a screen of gargantuan proportions...one that exceeds the size limitation of a Mirrored application, the use of a Silver reflective base under a White, or very light Gray Top Coat, offers the greatest potential improvement possible over any "Single coat" metallic paint application. The simple physics of having the added layered depth of a semi-translucent Top Coat, as well as the separate contributing layer of varying Reflectivity underneath, allows such a thin surface to create more of an appearance of "depth" than otherwise is possible.

However, and it seems almost silly to have to point it out, there will be no one who can ever paint successive layers of a Clear to a depth of 1/8" to equal the "Gap" between a true Mirrored surface and the reflective Top Coat. That being so, there will never be a Screen application with the ability to effectively duplicate ad/or match the potential and performance of a correctly done Light Fusion Mirror Screen application.

Everything else.....they are all resigned to being "almost are" and "just about as good as". The one thing that still makes all those other applications "all good" is just how very much improved many other DIY applications have become.

And as in so many other similar types of situations, what you haven't seen or experienced, you cannot then apply that lack of knowledge to a comparison of what is known to you. So.....if a UPW white Wall, or a Black Widow painted Board seems better than you could have hoped for, then you can maintain that equilibrium by not exploring "The Looking Glass" equation.

Because if you do take a peek into the Mirror, you'll get lost in a "Wonderland" of virtual reality.

I'm late....I'm late.......

Off with his head!
post #450 of 452
The new thrater is going to be BIG So I need more that a 5 x 8 sheet.... I am not sure the bigger one is going to work either

SO I need to figure out what base I can use and if I can live with it now ....
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