Metallic Silver/ MississippiMud screen intructions - Page 4

Haha actually I've got a lot of experience as a photographer, I'm more worried about people pointing out the flaws that I'm sure exist in the quality of my projected image. Haha I see all of these shots going up and see people ripping them apart for the "unbearable" flaws (VB, SDE, etc etc), and I find myself searching for them in my movies. I mean, I know it's all in the name of helping each other optimize their experience, but man I'd be bummed if I find that I've got some irreparable issue with my image. (or one that'll cost me twenty grand to remedy)

Anyway, I'll be sure to take some shots next time I'm home.

I'm ready to proclaim my recent success with the SD/MM process. I posted some preliminary information about results with small samples in the Superplex thread a week or so ago, and at the time was only mildly positive. Well I further modified my formula and painted my whole screen last weekend, and all I can say (and the wife agrees) is WOW. A very significant improvement over white or grey(painted G24) blackout cloth. Much brighter and richer colors, somewhat better blacks, and perhaps most interesting and unanticipated is the improved detail in the image. Overall its a really significant improvement. Its better in significant ambient light as well as complete darkness, and no appreciable viewing cone.
I did go down a slightly different path than the 'official' SD/MM approach of CRMA/MissMan, but nonetheless have to give 99% credit to those guys for their groundbreaking work and incessant evangalizing . I have a bright projector (PLV70) so I wanted to have some grey in the screen because of my positive experience with plain grey screen vs white. I also had not really been able to see much difference, with samples anyway, of the MM topcoat on plexi with or without SM backcoat. Therefore I was interested to put more 'shine' directly in the topcoat, so used silver metallic in it, plus a little bit of grey tinted white. My final recipe consisted of
4 oz deep base
5 oz UPW
8 oz Pearlescent
4 oz silver metallic
0.1/48 of lamp black (resulting from some of the UPW being actually a G24 tinted white)
Sprayed with pressure fed (not gravity) HVLP gun.

I don't mean to suggest that in all or most or some cases that this is better than the original MM topcoat, but for me I thought it gave a more pleasing result, and perhaps might have some merit for other DIYers out there.
Sorry no screenshots will be forthcoming - no digital camera. But take my word for it - it really looks good and was well worth the $150 and the time.

P.S. I have to opinionate regarding the lazy newcomers who won't read the entire thread and want the solution handed to them on a silver metallic platter - GET A GRIP. Just try to imagine the time invested to develop the content behind all those posts, and then the time spent to communicate that content. Its amazing to think that someone could complain about merely having to read the threads.

I just finished a 2' x 4' screen using your original formula on Parkland Polywall. It is the best screen sample that I have ever made, but it sounds like your new formula may in fact please me even more. I intend to put it to the test in the morning.

One thing I do differently is I add a small amount of Floetrol (dries almost clear and probably has translucent properties close to clear base) because it thins and increases the working time before the paint tacks and can no longer be spread evenly with a roller. It also helps by greatly reducing the troublesome streaks usually found with rolling.

I am painting the textured side of the Polywall and I use two thin coats. I will not be coating the opposite side with SM, at least not yet. Plus no sanding required!

Good job!

Thanks a lot.

Richum,
When you say 'your original formula' I assume you refer to my post of 1/26, and my 2nd formula with silver in it?

I forgot to mention that I also used floetrol - 1 oz in the above mixture of about 20 oz total; thats about half of their minimum recommendation. I don't know that it was necessary, but it certainly didn't hurt anything.

I also wanted to mention an opinion, not a tested fact regarding use of SM on the back of the plexi: I'm inclined to believe that much better results could be had with true mirrored plexi or glass, at least if the back coat is having any affect at all.

I also want to mention that I did not see an appreciable improvement in SDE. I'm not particularly irritated by it in the first place, and the plv70 has pretty high resolution; regardless I would not attribute the big improvement in overall picture quality to less SDE.

Good luck to you!

And once again, thanks to CMRA and Mississipiman for their efforts!

Yes it was the post where you added SM to the basic formula. I don't have issues with SD as I sit far enough from my screen that it disappears to my eye.

My problem with the silver metallic backing is it tends to make the screen even more gray and while I want improved contrast I am trying to find a happy medium between brightness and contrast, trying to find the sweet spot so to speak, at least for my tastes. So I will test without it and if I don't need/want it why bother.

Hi Greg,
What is the brand of spray gun that you used? I am thinking of using a Wagner 1800...any thoughts on it?

Ed

Ed,
I'm using a Husky HDS530 HVLP multi-purpose spray gun from Home Depot. Its was the $55 model; the cheaper $45 version at HD was siphon feed only; this one is pressure or siphon feed - you need the pressure feed for the thick MM material.
I don't know that specific Wagner model but I assume its an airless sprayer. I would be surprised if it would give as good of a finish as an HVLP gun.

Richum - your comment about the SM backing making the screen more grey matches my experience. I had made some samples with very thin coat of MM and they were too grey and dark because of the SM backing. Once I put on more topcoat that problem disappeared, but with the extra coats I couldn't tell any difference from the topcoat on plexi without any SM backing.
Thats why I think that a true mirror might provide a better chance of providing the 'light fusion' effect, even with thick enough topcoat to avoid the greying problem.
I should finally say that my small samples did not really do justice to the really great results achieved with the full screen. Therefore I don't fully trust my sample-based impressions of no difference between SM backcoat or not; it definitely could be that the SM backcoat is a contributor to the overall effect.

I've got a 6-gallon 3HP compressor.

Would that be sufficient for the $55 HD HVLP sprayer, or do I need a honkin' tank?

I painted the first coat of your mixture today and will put a second coat tomorrow. As far as the SM in this approach, my impression that it is of no benefit. Now the other efforts, MM SD variations I can understand what they are attempting.

You are right on when you say small test panels are not a good to judge any application. I have a smaller screen and a 2' wide x 4' high sample covers about 1/3 of my screen. I placed in the middle of my existing BO cloth screen and there was (to my eyes) about a 20 % improvement in contrast and color/sharpness. So 20% is a keeper for me.

About the Husky HVLP, what size (HP) capacity(CFM) compressor are you using with the pressurized gun? I may just need one of those, since I have a compressor, but it is only a 2HP direct drive with a 20 gallon receiver. Should be able to put up about 4 to 5 CFM if the pressure is not required to be too great. Oh and did you mean gravity feed or do they sell it in the siphon type at your HD?

Hi Greg,
I guess I will have to try the Wagner and cross my fingers that it would work...in the meanwhile, I am sourcing around to see if I can find other spraying alternatives...

Ed

MississippiMan,
Since I am a newbie when it comes to spraying techniques, why is it not possible to thin the mixture with distilled water to make it more easy to work with?

Ed

MM-
Your "Sis" is a little on the dark side. But the blue sky looks pretty vivid. I bet tweaking the white and black levels could make that sucker shine!

Richum
I'm using a 5 HP, 20 Gallon compressor. Its only 120 volt, so frankly I doubt the 5 HP rating because 15 amps @120 V won't make a true 5HP. When I was painting the full screen the compressor pretty much kept up - didn't loose or make ground. I would think that the smaller compressors mentioned would do the job; you'd just have to wait for it to catch up once a while. Think of the wait as built in run prevention . In any case, I have to emphasize that I am don't have extensive experience with or knowledge about this painting stuff; I'm just relaying my best effort at common sense based on my relatively limited experience.
BTW The tank pressure (max) in my setup is about 135, and I had the regulator pressure set to 55 psi.
Regarding the gun - it is indeed pressure feed, with the can on the bottom - not gravity feed. The gravity feed gun at HD was $75, and was described as suitable for low-medium viscosity, whereas the other model specified low-high viscosity.
Ed - regarding use of water or floetrol with the Wagner - if the model in question is an electric airless sprayer as is my old Wagner I wouldn't worry about thinning it. My experience is that it would throw the thick stuff with no problem; its just that the quality might not be that great, whether thin or thick. Like MM says, practice first.

Hi Greg,
Thanks! I will do just that this weekend....practice, practice, now where should i splurt on... ;-)

Ed

OK MM, I've got a screen up with SM on the wall and two coats of MissMud on top. While the silver is barely noticeable (looking at the wall from 5 feet away it looks white) when you walk up to it you can observe the slight grey shading.

So here's my problem, while I am geting the vibrant effects of SM/MM, black blacks and bright whites, I am seeing two issues - 1) a slight hot spotting in bright whites not unlike a lesser version of what you would see projecting onto SM; and 2) a decided lack of focus - better describe this - while I understand that the effect we are looking for is partly attributable to the two reflective layers, I have to assume the level of fuzziness I am encountering is not normal for the finished product given the number of raves. White letters on black have a significant shift, buy all scenes with detail (most notable when projecting HD) are just much "fuzzier" then they were, even projecting on straight SM.

I am hoping the solution is one more coat of MissMud, but given that the SM is barely perceptible now, I wanted to make certain that this is a normal part of the process and something that you have seen before with the intermediate coats. Anyway - you have done us all a great service - I will probably still be trying a LF screen, but I want to get this right first.

I believe in MM's posts scattered throughout the SD threads that you should put enough paint on to go just beyond seeing the reflective coating underneath. It sounds like you need one more thin layer, since you can see it barely beneath the MM coat. He also said you might want to thin out your last layer to ensure it doesn't go on too thick.

Of course, I have not made any screens at all, so this is all from what I've read in these threads. You can wait for his official response whenever he gets back if you prefer.

Darren

jsm-

I saw the exact same thing from the spray-painted side of my pseudo/quickie attempt at pre-Fusion yesterday.

The rolled-Kilz side continues to perform well, but the spray-painted side, even though it looks better when the PJ is off and lights are on, hot-spots and is out of focus. This is most evident when I view the green text from my projector's On-Screen Display (OSD, i.e. the setup menus). They're usually crystal clear, and since they're only green, they don't depend on convergence. I'll post a screenshot.

I suspect it's because the top layer isn't thick enough.

Right now I'm in the middle of setting up a tiny screen (4x8 instead of 8x12) with my older projector.

-Clarence

EDIT: Here's the screenshot. I forgot to take one with the lights on so you could see which samples were where, but it's obvious to me:

The bad (too thin?) spray-paint on mirror is the blurred section (starting at "JECTOR")



Rambling footnotes:
- This is from my older ECP3101, not my usual Marquee 8000.
- This is my first screenshot on a 4x8 test section of Formica laminate. Initial assessment: YECCH! Hotspotting everywhere! Look at the word "SETUP" at the very top center. The green text is glaring white!
- But again, the rolled-Kilz section of the mirror (look for the word "CONTINUE") looks brighter without hotspotting.

-Clarence

Ok, I should have checked back more quickly after posting that question, thanks for all the input. MM, I will PM you, probably in the morning, as it is a little late EST to paint and I've had a small work issue to deal with.

I should have mentioned, I am projecting an InFocus X1 from ten feet with an 80inch screen. MM, in particular, your screens look (very) light grey, mine does not, so I feel I may have screwed something here. Quick check, my MissMud is 2 parts White Opal, 1 part UPW, 1 part Deep Base, all flat latex.

Also, oddly, sometimes there are shots that are perfectly focused, and other times where it is clearly very fuzzy - I would go on a short limb here and say that it is tied into the brightness of a particular scene.

And Yes, I checked the focus.....................

MissMan,
How much would you charge if i (sent you my screen) to do all this to my screen and then send it back? would you do it?

Thanks
Chris

After a failed attempt at spraying my SD/MM mirror, I'm gonna stick with my SM/MM screen and I'm gonna redo it right. This time I'm gonna sand the heck out of it to get it glassy smooth and really work the 2 thin coats of MM to get the most out of the screen.

So let's not forget about this formula and application. Many of the benefits of the SD/MM but without the limitations of spraying and the expense of buying a big mirror.

But ultimately I do plan to respray the mirror for the full LFS effect. Just won't be until Spring when things warm up again.

yeah, this formula really is the stuff, two items of advice:

1) make sure your wall is entirelyl flat. I have traced the blurryness mentioned above to the fact that this current drywall is wavy (a result of removing the 6x8foot mirrors that used to be glued to it which I have mentioned in other threads). It's not that the wavyness creates a permanend bad picture, but certain wave lengths (toward the red) the light boucing around within the coating more (unscientific) and blur the image while others are crystal clear. Best example, the Sepia tinted "Evita" looks universally blurry, while the intentionally blue shifted "Payback" is sharp as a knife all the way through. White on black credits are the only exception to this rule.

2) When you sand a less then perfectly flat surface, don't let patches of pure SM show through. You will need too many coats of MM to cover those spots, hotspotting the areas that didn't need the extra coverage.

What happened? Is it something wrong with spraying MM on a mirror surface?
I'm planning to buy a mirror for my upcoming Dell-3200 PJ...

Problem was the spray gun I bought didn't work properly and I couldn't get an even coat without splatters of paint screwing things up.