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Differences between Envy24HT and Envy24HT-S?  

post #1 of 32
2/2/04 at 8:11am
Thread Starter 
I was looking to pick up an Envy24 based solution, and was wondering the difference between the two HT varients. I'm trying to decide wether the extra $75 is worth it for the Revo over the Chaintech. This will be used for analog-in and optical-out only.

Thanks!

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post #2 of 32
2/2/04 at 9:34am
IMHO, save the extra $75. I have the Chaintech AV510 and it's great. I run it into my Sony receiver and Polk RM6500 satellites. Sounds as good as my direct connection from a DVD player.
post #3 of 32
2/2/04 at 11:36am
Just for playback of the usual formats, there's not a whole lot of difference between these core chips. Most of the difference in sound, at least in the analog domain will be be in the different DACs and opamps used between the expensive and cheap cards. I've got a Revo, and it sounds fantastic compared to any of the miscellaneous SB Live and Philips sound cards I've used in the past, but since I've not tried out one of these cheaper Envy24 cards (though I've been sorely tempted), I'm not sure how much audible difference there is.

Search out a thread on the Mad Dog Entertainer. It specs out very similar to the Chaintech you're talking about and when it first appeared on shelves at CompUSA there was a bit of a buzz since it could be had for like $20-$30 after a rebate (its only $50-$60 at retail normally, anyway). Cliff Watson grabbed one and ran some measurements on it. He wasn't impressed (though I would imagine it would take an aweful lot to impress him; the man has listened to more than his fair share of high end gear), but the did give out some data and spur some discussion, which quickly grew to encompass the Chaintech too.

Kensai
post #4 of 32
2/2/04 at 5:00pm
Thread Starter 
So basically I'm looking at VIA reference drivers instead of the M-Audio modified ones, and slightly inferior analog paths. The analog isnt particularily important as the sources I'm feeding it are crap to begin with (S-VHS/VHS and CATV), and the VIA drivers seem to be at least competant at their job. That's definitely more than I can say about any of the Creative Live and later drivers. :)

Cool, I'll drop the $30 and try out the Chaintech. Thanks for the input and pointing me to the other thread guys!
post #5 of 32
2/3/04 at 10:48am
Let us know how that goes. I've heard that the Via drivers will let you change which output is getting which set of channels (i.e. set the rear surround output as a duplicate of the stereo mains for a dedicated headphone out, etc.). I'd love to hear exactly what the drivers can do in that respect as those are capabilities I might be able to use, especially for the minimal cost.

Thanks,
Kensai
post #6 of 32
2/3/04 at 3:13pm
I have both a Revo and a Mad Dog Entertainer (which I bought at CompUSA for $20 after $30 rebate). I must say that I have been extremely impressed with the Entertainer. To my ear, the analog outputs sound just as good as the Revo, and the Entertainer has both optical out and in plugs (the Revo has coax out and no digital input). As far as I'm concerned, all you get for the extra $ with the Revo is fancier packaging and customized drivers (and I've had more problems with the M-Audio drivers than with the generic VIA drivers that the Entertainer uses).
post #7 of 32
2/3/04 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Kensai
I've heard that the Via drivers will let you change which output is getting which set of channels (i.e. set the rear surround output as a duplicate of the stereo mains for a dedicated headphone out, etc.). I'd love to hear exactly what the drivers can do in that respect as those are capabilities I might be able to use, especially for the minimal cost.
In 2 channel mode, you can set the 7/8 output to be a duplicate of the front channels. In 6 channel mode, however, you do not get anything out of the 7/8 output. I'm not aware of any way to customize the channels beyond that.
post #8 of 32
2/5/04 at 9:35pm
Thread Starter 
Mini-review time!

So, I picked up the Chaintech AV-710 (Envy24 HT-S), $27 off newegg. As always, newegg was great.

First, build quality. The card is essentially built nicely, except for the jacks on the back. They are of decent quality and have a nice feel to them, but they were put on kind of sloppily, so the back-plate doesnt sit flush with them. Also, I had to unscrew and adjust the back-plate as it protruded a bit too much and was getting in the way of installing the card. Also, the back-plate has a funny extrusion on it that bumps up against the back-plate of the card next to it. Annoying, but not life threatening. The card is in, just not perfect. I was also annoyed by the gold coloring that they decided to use on the back-plate. Everything else is silver colored on the back of my case, and then I've got this one ugly gold piece in a slot. Glad I dont have to look at the back of my case all the time.

Software and drivers. I love them. They are so utterly plain that it's shocking. None of this gimmicky crap that you find in most other audio drivers like Circle Surround, Sensura, EAX controls, or any of the crap that I have no use for. I want all of my sound to be output exactly as the designer intended. I firmly believe that 2-channel sources should stay 2-channel untouched and the like. The drivers do the job that they are supposed to, and nothing else. How many speakers do you want? What level do you want them? SPDIF on or off? What do you want routed to SPDIF? That's it. It's refreshing to see a driver that doesnt suffer from sever bloat. The only thing I wish they did do that they dont is downmix multi-channel DirectSound sources (games) to Pro Logic II. That would be a desirable close second to a real-time DD encoder, while still staying in the boundaries of "keep the sound as it should be".

Audio quality. I have no issues whatsoever with the SPDIF output I am getting from this thing, and that is exactly what I wanted. Like everything else with thisi card, it does it's job as is should, what more do you want?

So, my ending thoughts? For the $27 I spent on it, I am quite pleased. Definitly better than any card I've seen Creative put out since the liquid-great AWE64. Are there better cards? Sure, get a Revo for $75 more. The only thing I would like on this card for future possibilities is an SPDIF input, but the MadDog Entertainer seems to be the exact same card with that feature added for $30 more. The $30 wasnt worth it for me, but it's good to know the option is there. So, if VIA adds Pro Logic IIx downmixing in a future driver update to meet Azalia requirements, I will be one happy camper. Otherwise this will be a well spent $30 to hold me over until somebody comes out with a good PCI real-time DD encoder capable soundcard.

Recommended.
post #9 of 32
2/5/04 at 9:41pm
Thread Starter 
kensai - that's a "no" to the dynamicly routable outputs. each one seems to be locked. this is definitly a no-frills driver. i still love it :)
post #10 of 32
2/6/04 at 7:57am
Good info, guys. Sounds like one of these may be replacing my broken Revo soon (the front and center/sub outputs seem to have physically broken; may have to look into doing an RCA mod on them if they're even still viable).

Most software DVD players seem to have settings for "external prologic" or "surround" 2 channel output that might fit the bill, at least for 2 channel DVDs and any audio files you can stand playing through them (or possibly use Zoom Player in media mode but with the audio filters from one of these programs doing "surround" mode). As for DS multichannel stuff there's nothing currently available I can think of that would do the trick.

Getting 7/8 to duplicate 1/2 would actually be useful to me. I would be able to have stereo and headphones hooked directly at the same time, or I could have two stereo sets running in "party" mode directly from the card which in my environment, would be very useful.

On last question . . . has anyone here been able to compare analog out from both the Mad Dog and the Chaintech? I'm leaning toward the Mad Dog right now as I can just drive down the street here and grab one and I may be able to find a use for the optical in, but really, if there's a noticeable difference between the stereo out from the 1/2 jack (usually they've got a different, better set of electronics on that output), then that would make my decision.

Kensai
post #11 of 32
2/6/04 at 10:07am
I ordered the Chaintech AV-710 from newegg, just like darklordjames. I'm reporting the same excellent performance as in that post. My only comment is that my card installed without any difficulty, without any tinkering and without any issues with adjacent cards (Dell computer). Straightforward installation, straightforward drivers, straightforward (excellent) performance, both from the analog and the optical output.
post #12 of 32
2/6/04 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally posted by milaz001
I ordered the Chaintech AV-710 from newegg, just like darklordjames. I'm reporting the same excellent performance as in that post. My only comment is that my card installed without any difficulty, without any tinkering and without any issues with adjacent cards (Dell computer). Straightforward installation, straightforward drivers, straightforward (excellent) performance, both from the analog and the optical output.
Does the card allow for bit-perfect ASIO output over S/PDIF?
post #13 of 32
2/6/04 at 11:56am
I think the question is, does it allow for ASIO at all? Do the Via drivers contain an ASIO driver?

Kensai
post #14 of 32
2/6/04 at 12:23pm
I ordered the av-710 as I have the logitech z-640 5.1 channel speakers. The card gave no issues installing, neither did the drivers. The drivers' included test tones were nicely seperated with the analog outs. On the other hand, dvd's rips, tv, mp3's, etc... gave no surround sound. I should clarify that. There was center and rear, but they were so quiet that I could barely hear them, even when turned all the way up. Keep in mind that the test tones for center/rear were plenty loud.
I don't know what the problem was, but I'm back to 2 channel onboard emulating 6 channel, at the moment. I still have the card, so if anyone can help, I would quickly try.
JJ
post #15 of 32
2/6/04 at 12:46pm
I don't know the answer about the ASIO output. As far as the surround sound, I'm only using it for 2-channel music, so I can't comment.
post #16 of 32
2/7/04 at 2:34pm
Thread Starter 
slight update:

another option is the Gainward Hollywood@Home 7.1. it seems to be the exact same card as the Chaintech AV-710, so there is potential for price competition between the two. if you are interested in the Chaintech one anyone, then see if the Gainward is cheaper :)

i still thoroughly enjoy this card!
post #17 of 32
2/9/04 at 7:03am
doubleJ,

2 channel is only going to come out 2 channel unless you matrix it up to higher. I believe there's a check box on one of the last tabs of the Via drivers to extend 2 channel to multichannel. I have no idea what tech is involved, though I doubt its anything particularly good like Circle Surround II or any sort of Dolby tech. Also, don't the Logitechs have like M3D or something you could engage to get a matrix signal to all your speaks? If all else fails, you can either plug in the 7/8 output on the card to one of the other inputs on your Logitechs to get a duplicate set of stereo channels (would probably sound better than matrixing, anyway), or you could just get a splitter adapter from Radio Shack or someplace that is one male minijack end to the front channel output of your card and 2/3 minijack female out to your Logitechs.

James,

I just noticed that Gainward card a few moments before coming back to this thread. Looks like it and the Chaintech should be identical with the Mad Dog being slightly more due to the fact that its got optical input. They all use Via reference drivers, so there's no difference there.

I did find one reviewer who had done enough homework to reveal a significant difference between the HT and the HT-S. They both support 24/192, but the HT-S only does that over digital. Anyone doing digital out only from one of these should be fine (in fact there's no cheaper way to do this). However, over analog, the HT-S only supports 20/48. This may or may not be a hinderance for folks just wanting decent cheap output since it should still be able to manage to not resample 44.1khz audio to 48khz and/or use kernal sampling (still, if this will do ASIO, then that would be the easiest way to be sure; someone with one of these cards should just grab ASIO out plugin for Winamp or, I believe Foobar has the option to output Via ASIO built in and check) to avoid Windows mangling the sound.

As long as the DACs on these things are decent, most folks with most equipment may not be able to hear a difference.

Kensai
post #18 of 32
2/9/04 at 7:34am
kensai...
I am using the matrixing in the speakers to emulate 5.1, right now with my 2 channel onboard. The issue was when I was when I was using a dvd that is 5.1, with the chaintech, which would need no emulation. The logitechs have a rear, front, and center/bass cord that plugs into the soundcard. Are you saying that if I hooked the rears physically to the soundcard, thus bypassing the amp and speaker controls, I might get rear to work, properly? If that did work, I would only be using the soundcards amplification, which I assume would be pretty soft. Also, the center doesn't have a seperate cord like the fronts and rears. That 3 ended cord goes directly into the center.
JJ
post #19 of 32
2/9/04 at 7:53am
If I currently use an onboard SPDIF out on my ABIT IC7 G, will I get any benefot from using the Chaintech opticla out, or are these two equal since I'm passing the data stream out to an outboard decoder?
post #20 of 32
2/9/04 at 9:30am
doubleJ,

I think your problem may be your software dvd player. You've got to make sure it can support software DD and/or DTS decoding and then have it set for 6 channel mode. TV and MP3s will not give you multichannel output without some sort of matrixing. Perhaps give some more detail about your software and settings for DVD so we can help more.

astro11,

There shouldn't be any noticeable difference. I know for a fact that for DVD, there will be none. All current software dvd players run through DirectShow, so you're going to get an identical signal. As for other outputs, such as CD, MP3, etc. I'm not exactly sure since I've never been able to figure out for certain whether all the resampling issues almost all consumer solutions have happen in the all digital path or if they only occur during the analog out path. I'm guess it happens much earlier in the processing chain, so there's a chance that the Chaintech will allow for a less mangled output signal, even via optical (the optical output hardware shouldn't be any different between the two, but the signal that hardware is being fed can easily be different).

Kensai
post #21 of 32
2/9/04 at 4:26pm
kensai...
I use powerdvd. It definately supports dd, although I may not have it configured appropriately. I assumed the soundcard drivers did everything required. With tv and mp3's, I know they are 2 channel only, but dvd rips with ac3 audio should have full channel seperation. At least that's what I've been told. I use media player classic for avi's.
JJ
post #22 of 32
2/10/04 at 8:00am
doubleJ,

As long as there is a 5.1 DD stream (DD is used for stereo alot these days too; apparently a better vehicle for delivering a DPLII compliant stream while taking up less space), you can get 5.1 out from a software player. Just because a player supports DD or DTS, it doesn't mean that it will decode them in software to give you 6 analog channels out. The software maker has to pay for a license to use the decoders if they're going to expose the full output (5.1), but not for simply getting at the sound and then downmixing it to 2 channels. Your soundcard drivers have nothing to do with the settings in PowerDVD. You have to go into PowerDVD's setup and insure that you have it set for 6-channel mode (which it may or may not do, depending on the version you have).


Anyone out there try to get ASIO out, analog or digital, from any of these cards yet? I've been hunting down reviews for these cards, and while none of them mention anything new, the opinions seem to show the Gainward card basically being a piece of crap, the Chaintech card being a solid midrange card with some limitations, and the Mad Dog to be really quite good, even though they all seem to be basically the same configuration. Another problem with looking at these reviews is that most are published by gaming/performance/mod sites, and none of the reviewers are using anything better than higher end Logitech or Klipsch PC speakers for their subjective tests (so obviously not the same audience that we tend to represent here).

Kensai
post #23 of 32
2/10/04 at 10:03am
Thread Starter 
Tell me how to get ASIO out (and what it is) and I will go and try it right now, as long as it is spdif compatible. i refuse to hook up analog cables. :) my initial assumption is that ASIO bypasses the windows kmixer (kmangler?) on a side note, are there other options to bypass kmangler? thanks!

regarding reviews, from what ive read and the pics ive seen, all three cards seem to be *exactly* the same (except for the mad dog's extra spdif in) and quite possibly made by the same manufacturer. they all seem to use the WM and VT1616 chips, so the reviewers opinions that the Gainward is crap, Chaintech good, and Mad Dog excellent seem to be wildly off base. frankly, the PC hardware sites that are reviewing these (and the audigy 2, as the 48k resample is rarely brought up) arent equiped or experienced enough to give a reliable review. another example is that i have seen reviews that say DD/DTS are impossible with these cards, and we all know that is a flat oout lie. this is of course my opinion, but i would like to think it is an informed opinion.
post #24 of 32
2/10/04 at 10:05am
Thread Starter 
speaking of reviews, lets all start posting links to reviews for these cards in an effort to make this something of a difinitive source for Envy24 HT-S info. suddenly i wish i could change the name of this thread to better reflect what has evolved to.
post #25 of 32
2/10/04 at 10:58am
Thread Starter 
http://techreport.com/reviews/2004q1...r/index.x?pg=1

based on the pictures in this review of the Mad Dog, and the Chaintech AV710 sitting in front of me, I can confirm that they both use the exact same DACs. the VT1616 for the first 6 channels, and the WM8728 for the Back Surrounds. through the drivers, analog stereo can be routed through the superior WM DAC. appearantly it has finally been confirmed that the only difference between the Mad Dog and Chaintech is the addition of SPDIF in for $30 more on the Mad Dog.

about the review above. this is easily the best review of an Envy24HT-S based card I have seen yet. there are actual objectively tested measurements, plus he used his girlfriend for a blind subjective test of the DACs. of course this review comes out immediately after i make the statement that all reviews of the Envy24HT-S so far are crap :) i'm glad to be proven wrong though.
post #26 of 32
2/10/04 at 11:24am
Review comparing the Revo and Audiotrak's Prodigy 7.1 (both are Envy24HT cards) http://www.techconnect.ws/modules.ph...t&id=57&page=1
post #27 of 32
2/16/04 at 7:32am
BTW...
In case anyone cares, I got 6 channel working with my av-710/z-640 combo. Kensai was right. It was all software of choice. I was using PowerDVD, which had multichannel out via spdif, but not analog. It was only a 2 channel version. I got a copy of WinDVD multichannel with the soundcard and it works great. Next, I use Media Player Classic for avi's and mpg's and I got 6 channel working for Ac3. Of course, mp3 and 2 channel avi's don't play on all speakers, but that's not much of an issue.
Thanks for the help, all.
Secondly...
Did anyone define whether onboard spdif would be as good as these envy's for DD passthrough? I'm mainly referring to the Abit IS7 mobo, although, my Soyo K7Dragon+ has spdif, too (cmedia 8738).
JJ
post #28 of 32
2/16/04 at 8:24am
You know, I had posted impressions of the Entertainer (with some comparison with my old Revo) on Friday. Any idea what happened to my post?

Kensai
post #29 of 32
2/16/04 at 11:51am
Looks like I am going to pick up the chaintech.

Are their any reviews of it?
edit-found one
http://www.short-media.com/article.php?122.0
post #30 of 32
2/16/04 at 11:56am
Looks to be the same gear as the Entertainer I just got. I'm happy with it.

darklordjames has the Chaintech, and I don't hear him warning anyone off yet.

These all use the same Via reference drivers, so there won't be any differences there to worry about.

Only problem I'm having right now is that I can't seem to pass an AC3 stream out via optical. I'm using WinDVD4 filters via Zoomplayer (which was working via SPDIF out on my busted Revo just days ago) and I just can't seem to get it to work yet. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Kensai
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