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Why have a subwoofer shootout ? - Page 2  

post #31 of 1163
2/6/04 at 12:35pm
Craig ,

Your'e beginning to grow on me...

You show some class and a calm demeanor , sprinkled with a touch of humor. ;)





Now , for the hop head ,

You need to loosen up a bit , My understanding is that extreme loud and low bass can move bowels , (no joke ) a good dose of that and you might feel better , if not , a good laxative works for me.

PS. this is all in jest , and it is fun isn't it ?? :)....RIGHT CRAIG ??


BTW, had I known you guys were executives I would have shown more respect :rolleyes:

Big snow storm here in TO today could not get the car out of the garage ...plus fending off the pack of wolves out in the back , they want to eat my dog.

So , Thank You Craig and Tusky for the entertainment , on what would have been a boring day....EH,

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post #32 of 1163
2/6/04 at 12:44pm
Thread Starter 
We get them here, too... from people we call Southerners... "How can you STAND all that snow ? " ...

The only thing I am certain of now is :

1. Happy hour starts in 2 hours

2. I have two Hsu VTF-3 mark 2's to set up

3. See #1

Talk later !
post #33 of 1163
2/6/04 at 1:16pm
Craig,

Life is good..........no doubt!:D
post #34 of 1163
2/6/04 at 2:03pm
Quote:
You need to loosen up a bit , My understanding is that extreme loud and low bass can move bowels , (no joke ) a good dose of that and you might feel better , if not , a good laxative works for me.
Don't worry, I have a PB2+, that is an everday occurrence. :) I'm not tight in the least bit, my sub is though. Your first post wasn't in jest as far as I or anyone else could see. No matter, anyone has the right to change their attitude, glad yours went from sarcastic to joking, cause the bantering is getting old. Any new word from Adire Craig?
post #35 of 1163
2/6/04 at 2:37pm
Racing subs?

In 1983 for a promotional deal JBL setup an array of speakers with a significant amount of amp power behind them on the track at Talledega. A drummer would hit a head or a guitar guy a note and you could actually hear it go around the first turn and sometimes around the second. Fun experience.
post #36 of 1163
2/6/04 at 2:46pm
Quote:
Originally posted by tuskenraider
Don't worry, I have a PB2+, that is an everday occurrence. :) I'm not tight in the least bit, my sub is though. Your first post wasn't in jest as far as I or anyone else could see. No matter, anyone has the right to change their attitude, glad yours went from sarcastic to joking, cause the bantering is getting old. Any new word from Adire Craig?
I think tusken is saying he is regular. :D
post #37 of 1163
2/6/04 at 3:00pm
Thread Starter 
They sound great... and my first impression (this is not scientific... remember... happy hour is now 1/2 hour away) ...

They sound a LOT like the pb2+ ... deep, articulate, tuneful... the bass lines and drum from 2 against nature sound like they did last night...

And on the WAF rating... the boss says...

"Ok... You replaced one BIG black box with two almost BIG black boxes...

It is a tie... for last...:)... with the wife...
post #38 of 1163
2/6/04 at 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub
And on the WAF rating... the boss says...

"Ok... You replaced one BIG black box with two almost BIG black boxes...

It is a tie... for last...:)... with the wife...
Oh..that's right...you did not get the piano black. Or would that not have made a difference?

Do you have both VTF-3MK2's set up? How is your back?
post #39 of 1163
2/6/04 at 4:05pm
`Honey, that's some great Bass'
Ummmm!

E
post #40 of 1163
2/6/04 at 7:10pm
Thread Starter 
Either way, they don't match her hardwood floors...

and after carrying the pb2+ by myself, the Hsu's were actually a treat !

Tonight, while at happy hour, We listened to a live Quartet... Cello, Piano, Drum, and Sax... Could there possibly be a better set up than live music ?

To hear that Cello Player work... a really cool guy...

in the 60's, his band was Chuck and the Playboys... Great Stuff !
post #41 of 1163
2/6/04 at 7:36pm
I am becoming more of the cello fan. I have a couple of YoYo Ma discs that I really like.
post #42 of 1163
2/6/04 at 8:52pm
Thread Starter 
Blind listening is SO hard... We listened to both subs (from this point on... The pair of Hsu will be considered A sub) twice... at the same volume level, chapter 2...

Sub "B" was a slight "winner" ... it seemed a bit deeper, more palpable, and my wife, even noticed the swords were cleaner... Each night, the winner will be 100 points...

So... Sub B ... 100 points...

And Sub A .....93 points...

They are REALLY close... and this scale is just my opinion...

And for setup, both have been calibrated with the AVIA disc, Audio Control Richter Scale 1/6 octave EQ...and a very carefully calibrated R/S SPL meter...

The SPl's as measured during what seemed fairly loud was between 82 and 103 db valleys and peaks...
post #43 of 1163
2/6/04 at 9:30pm
Cool Craig!

On the Hsus...the gain knobs are each in the same position?

And the subs, "A" and "B" are not in the same position right? More or less sitting next to each other? You're son is just switcbing the cable?

You can still hear you're own typing on the keyboard?
post #44 of 1163
2/6/04 at 9:40pm
Thread Starter 
1. yes... and the subs were calibrated so each is the same loudness...
2. They are both the same distance from the main listening area... about two meters...
3. My son is just switching cable... he is really into this, too... he loves knowing when we don't... of course, he also loves poker...
4. I take notes while listening... then type later...

and damn... these are GOOD subs...
post #45 of 1163
2/6/04 at 11:21pm
I mainly wanted to make sure you hearing was still OK and the house still on the foundation.
post #46 of 1163
2/7/04 at 5:11am
Thread Starter 
:rolleyes: ....

From The listening position, we only cleared 100 db a few times, and it was still fairly loud. The average SPL we listened to was about 94 db..... and that, more or less, is what we usually do...

I cannot imagine regularly listening at 105 db and up ...
post #47 of 1163
2/7/04 at 5:35am
Don't forget that if you are using the rat shack meter for measuring you would typically add around 3 dbs for the action flicks and probably 1.5 to 2 dbs for music bass to your measurements.

So you may be hearing more like 103 dbs when you see 100 on the meter during movie LFE. These peaks should correspond to around a 12-15 db below reference setting on your LFE. None of the subs should have trouble performing at this demand level.

The C-weighted fast setting will reveal the peaks best.
post #48 of 1163
2/7/04 at 5:47am
Thread Starter 
My audio engineer friend, Tony, calibrated the R/S meter to within 1 db of his Leap software. I spent about an hour on the phone with Dan Wiggins of Adire yesterday. He not only gave his nod of approval to the methodology, he is very familiar with the LEAP software, and he made an offer...

But first, You are right, we are using the C weighting.

Dan also confirmed that we are about 15-18 dbs below reference level.

His words (as close to a quote as I can get... and DAN, please feel free to correct me here.)... "Reference level means peaks at 121db, and those who listen at that level, in 15 years, will be deaf"

The way I set the level last night was fairly simple... I turned Gladiator until the dialog was normal... then switched on the R/S meter...

Conversation was 83 db
the peak bass SPL's during the Battle Of Germania were 103 DB...

This was with both subs... and at this level, you got the effect of room shaking, yet tight, articulate, powerful and visceral bass.

now... the offer from Dan ?

This Monday, I am ordering a PAIR of Dharman subs from ADIRE... The SHOOTOUT just got bigger...

He is sending them GRATIS... with the promise from me... If I like them, I keep them !...

THANK YOU DAN AND ADIRE... AND WELCOME TO THE SHOOTOUT !
post #49 of 1163
2/7/04 at 5:49am
In the blind world, it might be more accurate and easier if you simply rated each criterea for each sub on a 1-10 level with multiple people listening. In this way. Something about 1-10 vs. 0-100 makes it less daunting and you generally get better results. The only reason I say this is that we did a lot of testing when we were putting out customer satisfaction surveys.

The items of importance in a 'fair' assessment were:

1. # of different people
2. # of different samples (disks in your case)
3. # of different areas in question (extension, tightness, max spl, distortion)
4. Overlapping questions - ask 2 questions that are basically the same thing 2 different ways and average the response.
5. Range of possible values - 1-5 was the best but 1-10 allows more discreetness. 1-100 was too much and we had responses all over the place on the same sample from the same person. 1-10 seemed to work the best.

AND, yes, even though a generally arrogant post, just listening to the sub is a valid point. You'd be amazed at the differences - especially when you start getting around 100db.

Wish I had the money and time to do something like this. Sounds like a blast.
post #50 of 1163
2/7/04 at 5:57am
Thread Starter 
Since the purpose of this is to see how these truly compare to each other... maybe the first 3-4 listening rounds will be for practice...

That will allow for a (relative) consensus, and to give those interested a chance to give feedback, suggest discs, etc....

Most of the listening will be from my wife, me, and a couple of friends who are promised anonymity...:)

There is no time limit, per se... getting this right so people have some sort of reference is what counts...

SO - Any opinions on what BPAPE has suggested ?
post #51 of 1163
2/7/04 at 6:15am
Well with no correction factor needed you would be even further below reference.

121 dbs makes the assumption of a full blow LFE signal peak and loud levels of re-directed bass with all speakers set to small. 115 db is the LFE maximum peak standard for subs without redirected bass.

I can turn off LFE with my receiver to just listen to redirected bass. IMO, a properly mastered DVD needing 121 dbs of LFE and re-directed bass is an extreme exception. In other words those rocks crashing to the ground in the Battle of Helms Deep make almost no sound with the LFE turned off.

Remember not all DVDs with strong LFE are necessarily sending a the max peak signal either. So even playing a movie at reference level may give you bass peaks less than 115dbs. This of course assumes a properly calibrated and level matched set-up.
post #52 of 1163
2/7/04 at 6:52am
I have a fairly small Home Theater (14x12) - is there any point in spending the extra $200 on a SVS PC Plus 25-31 or will I just be as happy with the PCI?
post #53 of 1163
2/7/04 at 7:30am
I think Craig just answered his own question as to "Why have a subwoofer shootout?"


You can't get a much better deal on anything than "Gratis"


LOL!


More subs = more fun :)
post #54 of 1163
2/7/04 at 11:59am
Thread Starter 
Although the Gratis part is only if I return them... if I keep them... I pay for them...
post #55 of 1163
2/7/04 at 9:40pm
Thread Starter 
Titan Ae is SUCH a great disc for testing out a sub system. In today's listening, both subs were great again. Sub "B" again was somewhat deeper and more visceral. It seemed to have an extra 1/2 octave of deep bass... though either sub was really good, and better than we got from the 25-31 pc plus... or any other sub before these two.

And some total SPL notes... most of the dialog scenes were in the 82-86 db range, while the power bass scenes (the ice crashes are the best known) hit 105 db.... which may be closer to 106 db (even with the calibration from the LEAP software, we really should not discount the extra actual db's as mentioned by TRC)... Both subs had the same SPL level... but "B" seemed a bit deeper...

On the Sanborn Disc...(upfront, 1992) ... both subs did everything VERY well... lots of both bass drum and guitar... though not as deep as Two Against Nature... still very revealing... We could not tell which was better between "A" and "B" ... which is not too much a surprise, this disc is not nearly as difficult as the Titan Ae was...
post #56 of 1163
2/7/04 at 10:00pm
craigsub - Is sub B the same each night or is your son switching the A/B identy on you as well.
Seems like you might begin to `get to know A & B' after a time if they are the same each night.
Sorry if I'm confused, but you seem to I.D. the B sub as the same sub for 2 nights(even if you don't know which brand)
E
post #57 of 1163
2/7/04 at 10:09pm
Thread Starter 
My son and I talked about this quite carefully... he is 12 going on 33...:)

When he sets the subs each night, we listen... make notes and leave... then he switches, and we make notes again...And "A" and "B" can be different subs each night...

It may well be that, for example, last night "B" meant the Hsu's... and tonight..."B" meant the SVS... I will not know until we are done... say in two weeks...

He has a chart started for each night... which was "A" or "B" each night...

Of course... When all is done, We may have preferred each sub half the time... which would either mean they are really close, or I am tone-deaf... :p
post #58 of 1163
2/7/04 at 10:26pm
Thread Starter 
I typed "again" for sub "B" ... I can see why you might think the subs would be the same each night... which would make for a "near-sighted" rather than blind test.... He is supposed to just "wing it" and pick which one each night...
post #59 of 1163
2/7/04 at 11:10pm
This is pretty cool.....can you do updates more often, kind of like a play by play? LOL

Are the VTF-3MK2's set up in max extension or max output? How many ports open on the PB2+?
post #60 of 1163
2/8/04 at 5:26am
Craig,

As luck would have it I am in the market for the subs you are reviewing. I agree with CS chang you play by play and feeling as you listen to the subs with various movies and music is very interesting and helpful. I would think their would be some benefit in having your son make the "A"/"B" switch during the same night so that the listeners do not get in somewhat of a perceived pattern when the calls are very close.

With your initial sub setting were there any needed differences in subwoofer level or receiver setting for either level or frequency cut off?

Thank you for the time and effort you are putting into this. RICK
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