Was the Guy Kuo Shootout Fair - Page 2  

I'm also tired of hearing the dead pixel argument, I have got 'dead pixels' on two tubes of my CRT from an equipment failure, and it's not exactly cheap or retube either. Also sick of the price argument, a 9" crt aint that cheap in general.
I vote that we ban superlatives like 'night & Day' and 'No contest', 'Unwatchable digital' etc. when comparing these things ;)
What I am glad to see is a decent shootout between two well setup projectors by people who know a good image. I bet a lot of people are surprised that the dlp has a better effective contrast ratio on mixed light scenes!
Bravo guys for finally having a meaningful shootout, and letting the forum know that neither crt or dlp are king - both have advantages and both give gloriously images.
I think this bodes well for the future of dlp, and with any luck in a few years they will be 2K each!

Precisely. And odds are that it won't be a giant CRT at that time; at least not for me anyways-

Warren

Maybe I missed it in the other thread, but how many hours were on the CRT tubes? And how many hours were on the bulbs?

Is the color going to degrade quickly as time goes on with the bulbs? (OK, I guess if you can afford $12k for the projector, $400/week for new bulbs probably is in your budget too! :D )

Would the bulbs be adjustable to a basically consistent color high quality over a large period of time (say with less than 1/2 hr tweaking) per week of typical viewing, compared to the time involved with tweaking a properly setup CRT over a similar timeframe?

Regards,

Ira

Guy and Darin are both discerning bright people. I would certainly have no reason to dispute their findings and I certainly read and enjoy all of their posts and findings( when I can understand them). These two probably have done and written about some of the most objective work on this forum. But this time I'm sure they were drinking a magic mushroom cocktail to come to that conclusion and I think they are both totally full of **** !!!;) :D Just kidding.

Thanks for the effort , guys like you are the reason this forum is a powerful place.

Art

Well, I have great respect for the Faroudja 3000. I know at one point in time it was the best video out there, however that was then and this is now. I don't find the comparison to be be quite fair to use an analog source to a DVI source. I know several people who has HAD a Faroudja 3000, and now owns a tweaked HTPC. They claimed that there's a big difference between the two. The main reason being the elimination of an anolog source, keeping everything in digital with only an analog out for the projector, and this is similar to going SDI.

from what I've heard from several sources is that the newer 9800 ATI cards will easily outperform a F3000.

It would be nice if some of those folk who have replaced their F3000 with the lastest video cards would chime in with what they have reported to me when going the high end HTPC/MP-1 route.

I would like to see this done again, but with a high end HTPC. The reported noise on that thread (pixel forum) is a common issue with analog source devices, but is non existing on a properly tweaked HTPC.

Frankly..I dispute their findings-they are not gods they are giving their opinion-this opinion is clouded by the one crt owner who already has a foot in the digital camp.
As I have mentioned in their original thread-one of -if not the top dlp is compared to NOT the best crt-I mentioned to try the experiment using a G90 or a Marquee 9500lc ultra..or a Cine 9..ALL brighter with better blacks.

I think in this demo the dice were stacked in the favour of dlp and more about proving how good the 11k was.

I would like to read a comparison of Darin`s Sharp against a die hard crt enthusiasts crt-7" upwards.

If i was in the u.s. i would have been round there like a shot with the 1272 I had -which believe me, would have kicked that 11k`s a***..

In this flawed comparison-there was no hdtv on the crt,the black and shadow detail of crt was fleetingly mentioned...

So how was the 11k better? More detail in the faces...NO...artificial detail created by the pixel panel..

I noticed this when i sold the 12ht-which in terms of resolving power was in front of the 11k by nature of its 1366 x 768 panel..it looked blisteringly sharp...crt by comparison looked soft...until after a while i noticed there was as much-if not more detail-but it was more smooth due to NO artifacts being jumbled up with the pixels and presented as a facsimile of sharpness...

Where were the settings for this comparison/the screenshots?

Sorry ..but it meant nothing....Ill throw down the gauntlet to Darinp...next time your in the u.k. ,come and see me-and WHATEVER crt i currently have -i promise will give that little fan heater a pasting!
:D :D :D

HEAT, with all due respect, Guy Kuo *is* a god. :)

But seriously, Guy has authored what has to be one of (if not *the*) most useful setup guides available to us for our CRTs. Add to that the design of the Avia setup disks and I think we have a person that completely understands display technology inside and out. I would never accuse Guy of any partisanship with respect to the technology used for display - he's in it for the results, no matter how you get there.

If these guys say the Sharp looked better than an 8" LC unit on most material, then I believe them. I saw some nice digital PJs at CEDIA this year and besides the black level and temporal dithering on pans (that *is* a deal killer), they looked great.

Having said that, I also wish there had been a 9" CRT there to compare with. I believe it was Guy who posted that it would take a 9" tube to widen the gap between the technologies. Now that would be an interesting comparison.

Cary

Are you actually suggesting that a 7" projector with no EMF will outperform an XGLC?

A "die hard CRT enthusiast"? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Kuo just about write the book on setting up CRT's?

Sorry, I posted at the same time.

I'll add one thing though that some may be overlooking.
He's producing and selling calibration tools which are used with both. It's not in his best interest to voice a conclusion which steps on a lot of toes.
I can't see any motive for it other than he just spoke his mind. He deserves some credit for that.

I agree and don't think there was any prejudice in the outcome. Guy knows what a good CRT image looks like and Darin has always struck me as being a person who is in search of knowledge. Some of us are just looking for the best image we can get and are totally technology agnostic.

Mike certainly makes a valid point here..

I'm using his MP-1 card with the Holo card - recently added SDI which gives a further cleaner image..

I don't see anything noise related other than the transfer itself..

I'd like to see a repeat shootout making both projectors be the best they can be - so HTPC/SDI for the CRT and same HTPC/DVI for the Sharp..

And the "holy focus' thing done to the CRT and colours tweaked on both etc etc..

--

Every CRT owner has to like the results in the shootout..

I have seen the Sharp 10K and it would be the digital I'd go with - I'm happy to hear that there's 3D image depth with the 11/12K as I didn't experience this on the 10K..

The way digitals advance and prices fall, you can buy a 2 year old Sharp 12K for $4k in 2 years which makes it pretty comparable to a decent used 8" CRT..or a brand new Sharp 16K (or whatever the model will be in 2 years) for a cost comparable to a used high end 9" CRT..

Keep those DLP advances coming..

"Technology agnostic". I like that, John. Has a nice ring to it.
Sounds a lot better than "projector biboy". :)

Then there's the technology athiest. The guy who's discoverd the whole bloody thing is evil. From Windows to projectors to telephone prompts to you name it. He knows that it's all just a big conspiracy. To rob you of your time, your money and your sanity.

Lets face it guys, the Fixed Pixel Display Technology is no longer just in our rear-view morror. It has just pulled up alongside and accelerating towards the finish line. If I read the post correctly the Sharp was using a lowly Momitsu while the NEC CRT had a pretty decent Faroudja scaler. I would like to think that running an HTPC to the CRT machine would give it the edge but wouldn't the same signal to the Sharp 12K also improve it's picture?
We still have ultimate black levels, price, and being able to sit at 1X screen width, but 2 of those will probaly disappear within a year. I figure I have 6 years left on the very clean tubes in my M8500, and after that I will look again at the whole projection technology picture.
will somebody please call NASA and the Air Force and tell them to join the 21st century?:(

I agree with you John..

We are after the best image - who cares what box it comes from..and I look at front PJ's as boxes - my CRT is in a box and a digital would be too if it makes any noise I can hear..

I read a little blurb in the current issue of Sound and Vision about a new display technology coming soon called SET..

It is a thin flat panel like a plasma that uses phosphours like a CRT - the 1st model is a 42" set..it sure got my attention - something that could give you the best that both CRT and digital have to offer..

Well I think theres a few people in here that are in the wrong forum!

If people want to espouse the virtues of the Sharp 11k-then go in the digital forum...lets be realistic here-2 people with three TOTALLY unrelated technologies-different price levels -a top dlp...a not so top crt..a cheapo dlp-no synergy in source-some analogue-some digital...no pics...

If we are not to question because Guy says so-then shut down the crt forum and we can all move over to digital and the digital forum..

This comparison read like a Sharp 11k propaganda thread-albeit unintentionally..and im sorry,but im not going to deny my 20 years of looking at movies and different pictures-and setting up pictures to deceive myself that what i am seeing is wrong.
Robert has a dlp..Guy has a dlp i believe..so has Darin..im not saying that removes their objectivety but it surely adds some sort of bias to the mix?

Ive no doubt that digital is the future-im certain the ultimate picture though will not come from dlp..

Ive no doubt that maybe in 3 years time the best 9" crts will be bested-and great when that happens-but that time isnt yet-no matter how many former crt gurus defect to the dlp camp and then use the benefit of their "wisdom" earnt through crt to convince us that what we see with our own eyes is wrong..

A fair contest? Take the Sharp 11k-if we are saying it is the best dlp-im sure Darip thought that before the comparison-and compare it to the top 9" crt-well setup-with HDTV...

Then lets see..

I wont of course mention that its due to the "power" of crt -that whatever your opinions a ten year old projector can mix it with todays state of the art-however the shootout is stacked..

I wont mention thje price factor..

I wont mention that crt was king in its day...though dlp cannot say this now..

...oh,i have..

While I love my CRT, I am I'm glad that the gap is narrowing. It's possible that by the time my tubes need replacing in 3 or so years, that there will be a dlp that looks as good on a 108" wide , 2.35 screen, that allows you to sit 1 width away. Of course it will probably still cost >7 grand. So maybe one more set of tubes will be in order, but after that who knows? I'm all about the best picture for the money. Right now CRT gives me that. Some day a completly digital machine will.

The one thing that manufactures don't seem to have an intrest in, is improving bulb life. ~400 bucks for 2000 hours? Uggh! Of course they really don't have much of an incentive to improve this, as they make money off the consumables. :(

QQQ is truly the best there is at developing controversy, perhaps the bland is second.

I hope to have an open invite to Guy and Darin when my new HT is done.Even if they still like FPDDs better it could be fun. Bob won't travel this far even for what would be a weekend vacation at my home.:D

Art

if you go over to the digital forum and just mention crt, which is verboten you get censored, along with a good tongue lashing for daring to mention the "c" word, at least the digi-tal guys can come over here for some back and forth ...................

I'm with MP on this and would have to say (as I did last night) that there was a weak link in the video chain somewhere that was hurting the XG's picture.
As I read this last night I walked into my theater to see if I could see the "artifacts" that were talked about in the DVD playback. Mine is a lowly XG1100 (not even an LC) with an outdated HTPC and Radion 7500 with MP1 mods. In fact this particular XG has some video noise problems (above that of normal XG's) that I haven't been able to figure out yet. But that noise is in the background and can only be seen when all white is put up and only close to the screen. But alas that noise doen't help in picture quality and as I have seen many times before in MP's mods to the Marquee series, the reduction of that noise helps tremendously.
With all that I still couldn't see any artifacts on the 106" wide screen set to 10fL off the screen at 100ire standing right next to the screen with my glasses on. And in my case playback was by way of a media server with the DVD ripped to a HD. So what gives??
I think that if a fair comparison was to be done, you would have to have the EXACT same source available to all projectors showing on the same screen size. My suggestion would have been the JVC30K. It outputs both 720P and 1080iHD material. There are to many variables in this impromptu testing that fail the scruteny and scientific methods needed to produce factual results.
Sorry Guy, but I'm not with you on this one (not that it really matters). To many loose ends.

Terry

QQQ, I have not read your entire posting (only the initial inquiry for performance for the two technology camps), but I just wanted to say I will read this thread and offer that I posted a reply to the referenced thread in your post, which I have taken the time this morning to read. I think I bring up a couple of points I thought were valid, and also concerns of the comparisons conducted yesterday.

I'll read your post and the replies later today.

I was wondering how much better CRT's can get, I believe that the digitals can be super good right now and even better in the future, but have the abilities of CRT been fully explored?

Now a CRT has the ability to shut down the light output completely and yet I find CRT Guru's not taking advantage of this. I found it pretty easy to do with PowerDVD. I was able to go from good black detail in dark images with the tubes going almost off, to good details in dark images with the tubes shutting down completely. Made a huge differance.

What I'm getting at is a CRT will shine if it is allowed to, that's why us tweakers like them.

Deron.

This comparison should have been done with a HTPC for DVD with equal time in Hi def. Give me a break- feeding the 1352 and a 12K with some kind of junk DVD player.

The 80" screen size is favoring the DLP and the CRT was at disadvantage at this size as at 80" sharp has a good fill ratio for that size. Push it to 100" screen you will need more than 1.4xW to avoid pixel separation. While it is expressed that 1.4x(w) would be good for the sharp, I don't think our eye are as linear as we say.

Set up a screen size around 100" diagonal and feed the HTPC SDI based signal to the Nec and DVI to the DLP and will see a more reliable results.

I have seen a 10k in my very next door house, the difference is there. DVD at 960p with radeon 9500 pro is way better than his sharp. I know he doesn't have DVI but neither XG1352. Colors on Sharp 10k has a cartoons render, saturated but away from naturally rich.

It will be while the two technologies can be compared on equal ground including the price, screen size, seating distance and technological stability of fixed panel. That is IMO. p.s. One more, the nec had over 3000hrs on the CRT and who knows how long on the electronics and sharp just broken in with 100 hours, that can have contributed to poor showing of his Nec.

Thank both of you for sharing a test with us.

Don't give up yet. Unlike Mike Tyson, it looks like CRT is going to get a rematch and a chance to win back the title. And this time in the HDTV ring. At least according to a couple of the posts.

I would be very interested in this. As I posted in the other thread I notice a big difference in detail between a native 720p signal and a native 1080i signal. I don't think I would be happy with a native 720p projector when I watch alot of 1080i material but perhaps someone will prove me wrong.

It would be my honor and privilege to get to see the two G90's, Art. And to see your beautiful theater and meet you.
I've not yet seen even one G90.
But even without ever seeing them perform, I'm ready to concede that
no DLP can whip em. The only thing that could do that would be my AmPro 4600.

Besides, a friend of a friend went to New York state (about the same latitude as you) a week ago to pick up a car he bought off eBay. He rented a car trailer with fiberglass fenders. It was so cold that the fenders got brittle and started cracking. So they got out some duct tape to tape them together in attempt to save em. Lo and behold the duct tape froze and got stiff as as a board.
I didn't even know such a thing was possible. After hearing that, to be honest with you I'm actually scared to go north of the Mason Dixon this time of year.

I see lots of compression artifacts with my XG 1352 with most DVDs. Having said that, the artifacts show up only on dark clips not on any thing higher than let say 30IRE. That also depends largely on the DVD. Some are relatively cleaner.

There must be huge rock that some of you are living under.

CRT, as a commercially viable product, is basically dead. CRT technology has been around many years and is never going to get any better without more engineering investment. This is NOT going to happen.

Will the price of a new CRT projector going to drop sufficiently to compete with a digital. NO WAY.

On the other hand, unless you are in diapers, you KNOW the performance/cost curve for digital projectors will continue to improve, like every digitally based product that has ever been sold.

Outside of the video enthusiasts and hobbyists, the pluses for digital far outweigh those for a CRT purchase these days. That is FACT.

New and further advancement in CRT front projectors is dead, digital is the future. Enjoy what we CRT lovers have had and continue to enjoy and let it die a peaceful and respectful death it deserves. Long live the King-"CRT".

Bud, I'm so old I am wearing diapers again. :)

Well the title of QQQs post was "was the Guy Kuo shootout fair?" , not was the Guy Kuo shootout perfect? I think it was fair and I'm a little saddened by the results. It means pretty soon all we will have left is nostalgia:(