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Was the Guy Kuo Shootout Fair - Page 3  

post #61 of 500
Compression artifacts are something that should not even be in the mix when doing a "shoot out" like this. One would hope that the choice of DVD based material is of the best quality so that these outside variables aren't in the loop at all. Sure I see these lind of artifacts in poorly mastered DVD's, and on some compresses HD. Dish is terrible about this with ther demo loop. Every time the scene jumps to bright you can see them.
But in a well mastered DVD playing back through a good video chain, you won't see these artifacts.

But lets conside what was happening last night.

XG demo: DVD player, D-A output, cable, A-D in the scaler, D-A to output to the PJ. I am assuming that the 3000 wasn't hooked up to an SDI DVD player?? Lots of conversions and chances for noise.

Sharp 11K Demo: DVI directly from the DVI output of the DVD player. Everything stays digital domain.

Why wasn't the test run with the output of the 3000 sent to both machines??

This topic was started about to discuss if the test was fair. I for one don't think so.
That has absolutely nothing to do with what my feelings are (if any) on digital projectors. I try and be objective and as scientific as I can in my studies of video. This particular testing fails in that regard.

Terry
post #62 of 500
Quote:
Originally posted by draganm
Well the title of QQQs post was "was the Guy Kuo shootout fair?" , not was the Guy Kuo shootout perfect? I think it was fair and I'm a little saddened by the results. It means pretty soon all we will have left is nostalgia:(
You are right.
I have lots of respect for Guy. Without him and his vast knowledge and great set up procedure, my Nec XG 1352 would have been mediocre at the best.

On the other hand, the comparison would have been more meaningful and result were more reliable if set up was more carefully designed.
post #63 of 500
Apart from using different sources , and not necessarily using the optimum res on the CRT, I guess that 60Hz was used so not using the CRTs ability to do 48 or 72Hz for butter smooth panning?
post #64 of 500
Quote:
Originally posted by Chuchuf


Why wasn't the test run with the output of the 3000 sent to both machines??

This topic was started about to discuss if the test was fair. I for one don't think so.
That has absolutely nothing to do with what my feelings are (if any) on digital projectors. I try and be objective and as scientific as I can in my studies of video. This particular testing fails in that regard.

Terry
This was not a double-blind, single-variable science experiment, it was a real-life shoot-out between good digital technology and good crt technology. The Faroudja scaler is no slouch, and probably better than most of us can offer to a crt. The Momitsu all-dvi solution to the dlp was a no-brainer; it's a ridiculously cheap all-digital path. That's one advanatge of the digital side of this ledger. Each camp needed to use their own Babe Ruth off the bench, and yes it's too bad that we couldn't evaulate what an SDI-based dvd player into a max'd out HTPC could have done for the crt gang, but to say that they both should be given the same signal is unreasonable, at best. Heck, following your "let's level the playing field" approach, if I were a digital fan I would have screamed foul that the crt folks got days and days for set-up, but digital got only 15 minutes. Would that have been more fair, give the crt guys 15 minutes? No, because it's apples and oranges.

Don't get me wrong; I'm a Runco 930 crt owner that is trying to figure out how to get the best dvd signal to my crt, and is opting to spend between $1500 (HTPC with Immersive H3dII , HD-Aux and Mike Parker cards, using my SDI-modded dvd player) and $2500 (Lumagen Vison pro w/ SDI). I own a Momitsu ($199) and I'm hearing that the DVI digital path out to a DLP is SWEET? That makes me very frustrated....but I wipe away the tears, do the best with my crt today, and still believe this shootout smells pretty darn fair. My $.02.
Ted_B
post #65 of 500
No one questioned Guy's methods or results when CRT came out on top. I see no reason to question them now. But, I switched from digital to CRT because I saw a CRT in action and it was obviously superior. For me to consider switching back to digital, I would have to see it out perform CRT with my own eyes. That has happened yet, and until it does, I'm sticking with CRT.
post #66 of 500
Quote:
Originally posted by Art Sonneborn
I hope to have an open invite to Guy and Darin when my new HT is done.Even if they still like FPDDs better it could be fun. Bob won't travel this far even for what would be a weekend vacation at my home.:D
Sounds great to me. I'm under the impression that you will have one of the best setups around, if not the best. Depending on the timing I may have a different digital so I don't know if I will have something reasonable that I can travel with for comparison.

As far as those people calling the 11k a $12k projector you need to do some research or start using MSRP for all the CRTs also.

As far as using the same input devices, I'm sorry but it makes absolutely zero sense to purposely degrade the 11k's images because the CRT cannot use an all digital path. That is an advantage of digital, pure and simple. Yes, I think using a better scaler for the CRT is reasonable, but then you need to include the extra cost and inconvenience, IMO. I did not use the best source for the 11k. I believe that would be a Denon 5900 at a little under $2k (but with DVD-A and SACD thrown in). But I do believe I used the second best source as I believe that the Momitsu V880 beats TheaterTek from my PC. I haven't used my HTPC for DVDs since I got the V880 and it isn't just because of convenience. That is just a side benefit.

As far as only using the cleanest DVDs, I completely disagree. It makes sense to use all sorts of material, but saying that it is unfair to use an average DVD for comparison of two imaging devices is ridiculous, IMO. We'll try to do "The Fifth Element" in HD from an HTPC at the next shootout, but that in no way discounts that how these devices work with most DVDs is relevant to most people.

HEAT,

After the praises you've sung in the past for digitals and your stance now you have about the least amount of credibility of anybody here. You may have 20 years looking at these things, but you've already shown that you can't be objective and even admitted that. If the CRT blows away the 11k at the next shootout I will say that as people who know me will already know.

--Darin
post #67 of 500
Ted,

I am crying "foul" because the CRT in my opinion was not well represented. As technology has advanced so have our ability to scale DVD or NTSC or Pal material. Both in the form of scalers and HTPC's. I would dare say that a HTPC w/ MP modded Radion, and SDI or even DVD playback would have been a much more level playing field. I'm also impressed with the Lumagen, but have not tested the SDI option so I can't really comment on it (although I have talked to Jim and he tells me it works very well.
What I am saying is that the source should be a constant when comparing the quality's of different projectors. It was a big variable in this case and what we were really comparing was system setups and not the projectors. I think the JVC DVHS would have been a very good test (I believe that it was mentioned somewhere last night about how well the DVHS material looked on the 11K), or a HTPC to both setups. That way if there is something in the source that is affecting the picture it will effect them both in the same way.
I, for one am very interested in this outcome and would be willing to do the same tests here in Atlanta if anyone is interested. In fact we could set up something with a G90 or an XGLC.

Terry
post #68 of 500
I have considered selling my XG to replace it with a fixed panel because i am near finishing my HT and have two kids who like to run in the living room where beneath is going to be the XG hanging. That is horrifying as far as convergence and focus is concerned.

I have about 720 hrs on the unit so I can get a decent return on the unit. Then I will need to double the money and more to get a Sharp or something equivalent with HD2 chip. In one year I loose $6000 on the Sharp when I upgrade. Still I have to sit 15~16' away from my 9' screen. Then there is the lamp issue and so on.

In my way of thinking going to digital path would make sense only if everything else remain equal including the picture at least. Don't forget even today people do not buy DVD players that cannot do 0 IRE let alone living with absence of 10~20 IRE. Tell me If I am unrealistic?
post #69 of 500
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chuchuf
Ted,

I am crying "foul" because the CRT in my opinion was not well represented. As technology has advanced so have our ability to scale DVD or NTSC or Pal material. Both in the form of scalers and HTPC's. I would dare say that a HTPC w/ MP modded Radion, and SDI or even DVD playback would have been a much more level playing field. I'm also impressed with the Lumagen, but have not tested the SDI option so I can't really comment on it (although I have talked to Jim and he tells me it works very well.
What I am saying is that the source should be a constant when comparing the quality's of different projectors. It was a big variable in this case and what we were really comparing was system setups and not the projectors. I think the JVC DVHS would have been a very good test (I believe that it was mentioned somewhere last night about how well the DVHS material looked on the 11K), or a HTPC to both setups. That way if there is something in the source that is affecting the picture it will effect them both in the same way.
I, for one am very interested in this outcome and would be willing to do the same tests here in Atlanta if anyone is interested. In fact we could set up something with a G90 or an XGLC.
There is some validity in arguing that the source should be constant but not much. Are you aware that the HT-1000 was fed S-VHS? Does that mean the CRT should have been fed S-VHS? Of course not, then you would be crying foul even more. If one of the entire advantages of a digital display is the ability to feed digital all the way to the device, it seems fair to do that. Just as it seems fair to use a state of the art scaler with the NEC. Was the shootout perfect? Of course not. But it sounds like they did a pretty darn good job all things considered.
post #70 of 500
Dariin,

Understand that what has now happened in Seattle is not an easy pill for these folks to swallow. I guess it's sort of like when Sam Oldsmobile (or whatever his name was) first showed up in Detroit with his horseless carriage and offered to race those stagecoaches. When his new fangled horseless carriage won the race, I'm sure the stagecoach drivers cried foul too. Probably said Sam was using high octane gas or something.
So go ahead and throw your HTPC in the car for the next one.
post #71 of 500
Quote:
So go ahead and throw your HTPC in the car for the next one
no. to be FAIR, have someone drag their CRT over to Darin's house. :D
post #72 of 500
I agree it dosen't make sense to send the same signal to both machines, but both machines should get the best signal they are capable of accepting. In this test niether machine got the best, the Sharp was fed a lowly Momi signal and the NEC got a high-quality but outdated scaler. I think the test was fair, but I would really like to see it done over with better sources for both. Wasn't there a third party there with a G70 and a very good HTPC scaling 1440X960 at 72 hz?
Maybe Darin would be kind enough to take the sharp over there and do the test over? We just need one more person to donate a Marantz DVD player to provide the DVI to the Sharp right?
post #73 of 500
I just noticed Mr. Steve Smith has already offered to do this back on page 2. GREAT, please do it soon as I did not sleep very well last night and have a headache today.:D Steve, I don't mean to put the pressure on you but thousands of us CRT Ludites are eagelry waiting for you to take back the crown:p
post #74 of 500
Seeing the efforts here by some to discredit the observations that Guy and Darrin are sharing with us comes as no surprise to me at all. It also doesn't surprise me that the question that no one is asking is whether or not the source feeds going into these machines were reasonable, and might be fairly representative of what people are using.

I'm sure that even if the NEC had a MP Radeon card and if the observations were not materially different then the complaint would be that the CRT was not well represented because the owner did not send it up to KBK in the Wilds of Canada before-hand to have him rebuild the entire chassis with his one-off mods.

--Jerome
post #75 of 500
Jerome your exagerating, only a couple of people thought the test was skewed and most of us just want it repeated with a different source. I am eagerly awaiting round 2 with the G70, this is actually better than Tyson vs. Holyfield and I''m hoping that neither Darin nor Steve get their ear bitten off.:D
post #76 of 500
Quote:
Originally posted by jsaliga
It also doesn't surprise me that the question that no one is asking is whether or not the source feeds going into these machines were reasonable, and might be fairly representative of what people are using.



--Jerome
That's what I was trying to say in my post above. The shootout was fair mainly because they chose their own technology's realistic sources, not Teranex's and Snell-Wilcox boxes. In fact, for the digital champ they chose a $199 source. If I said to you, "I'll go with a Faroudja 3000, not state-of-the-art, but no slouch; oh, here's 200 bucks, you go find somthing to use for your source" you'd cry foul, and for what looked to be good reasons.
Ted_B
post #77 of 500
The ironies continue. The hope of CRTdom rests on the much maligned G70! How many here would have said that a properly setup XG1352 could be bested by a Sony G70!
post #78 of 500
Quote:
Originally posted by draganm
Jerome your exagerating...
I edited my post for the PC factor. My use of the word "efforts" was not meant to be inclusive of everyone. It was meant in the plural, as in more than one.

--Jerome
post #79 of 500
Why not feed both projectors uncompressed progressive video from a high-end PC?
post #80 of 500
Thread Starter 
Because the best picture for a digital projector is a digital feed, otherwise know as DVI (digital video interface). You want to feed it DVI for the same reason you want to feed a CRT RGB.
post #81 of 500
Quote:
Originally posted by RobertWood
Besides, a friend of a friend went to New York state (about the same latitude as you) a week ago to pick up a car he bought off eBay. He rented a car trailer with fiberglass fenders. It was so cold that the fenders got brittle and started cracking. So they got out some duct tape to tape them together in attempt to save em. Lo and behold the duct tape froze and got stiff as as a board.
I didn't even know such a thing was possible. After hearing that, to be honest with you I'm actually scared to go north of the Mason Dixon this time of year.
Well Bob, I won't have anything to show except my now gutted theater until it gets a little warmer anyway. It was 35 today so I got my swimming trunks on.:D

Art
post #82 of 500
Quote:
The ironies continue. The hope of CRTdom rests on the much maligned G70! How many here would have said that a properly setup XG1352 could be bested by a Sony G70!
I think you're missing the point. No-one is questining the XG135, we are looking for a better RGB signal source than DVD player-cable-Faroduja scaler-Cable-projector. Maybe Guy Kuo wouldn't mind someone bringing a nice MP1 Radeon based HTPC over to his place to really give the XG something to chew on?
post #83 of 500
I'm gonna PM James Brown now, Art, and see if he's got a concert gig up your way in the spring. I'm remembering a while back he was saying he could fly a bunch of us to your neck of the woods in his private 707.

RE: projector source

I've fed both RGB and DVI from my Radeon HTPC to my DLP and I've fed RGB from it to my CRT.
Any combination of that will be plenty suitable for DVD. They all look very good. The difference is so subtle that there's not enough difference for anyone except the chronically anal to cry foul over. And then the naysayers won't have any grounds to naysay anymore.
post #84 of 500
Why do you all care so much?? If you like what you have, then that should be it...you all feel a need to prove each other wrong. Just pick something you like and be done with it!

I started with a digital and wasn't thrilled with dvd, then I got a crt and I'm not thrilled with HD...the digital was much better for HD! That being said, I prefer the crt for dvd's, but then again i never used dvi with my digital projector.

I guess it all comes down to validation, you all want to feel like you have the best. What's the point?

Ben
post #85 of 500
Quote:
I've fed both RGB and DVI from my Radeon HTPC to my DLP and I've fed RGB from it to my CRT.
Robert if they redo the test with a single HTPC as the source and feed RGB to the CRT and DVI to the Sharp and the DLP still wins I will lock my self in my HT and pretend the world outside has ended.:D
post #86 of 500
Well I can only speak for myself, Ben. But I'm reading and posting here because when I stop I have to go back to crating a Pacman in wood for shipping. That's about the most miserable part of my work. So I look for any excuse to take breaks. So far I've managed to turn a two hours job into an all day affair. Back to it.
post #87 of 500
Quote:
Originally posted by draganm
Robert if they redo the test with a single HTPC as the source and feed RGB to the CRT and DVI to the Sharp and the DLP still wins I will lock my self in my HT and pretend the world outside has ended.:D
I can see you all are gonna take defeat pretty hard. :)
So I suggest that instead of using DVI on the DLP, heck just use RGB for both (frankly both RGB and DVI look so good on a DLP that I really don't think that will make any difference). Or apply both to the DLP and compare both. If the DVI/DLP whips the RGB/CRT but the RGB/DLP does not, then let us know that too. The enquiring terminally anal minds amongst need to know. :)
post #88 of 500
Hey Robert, pack that damn PacMan! At this rate, it'll be next week before you get it on a truck!

I'm reading this thread only to see the comedy in action. If anyone here thought this day would never come (when a fixed panel projector was able to really show up a good CRT and perhaps be roughly its equal), they are nuts and should stay out of the conversation.

The biggest difference I saw in this was the price to me to get the image quality is still currently higher on the DLP side, as those units are not available yet in used form. Given my budget constraints, new is not an option, for either fixed panel or CRT technology. In another 12 months, when the 11k is available used, much of my issues with fixed panel projectors may be resolved...

But I'm happy with my current beast, and will keep it until it dies. I just retubed it, and see no reason to chuck it until I can get just as good of an image for about the same amount of money. Of course, I do need to factor in the disposal costs of my CRT, as odds are when I do replace it, I won't be able to sell it on ebay for $5!
post #89 of 500
What was the DVD player?, was it the same machine outputing component for the CRT and DVI to the DLP? Is the player a viable solution? What does it sound like?, what is the deinterlacing like? Can it do PAL properly? How many solutions do DVI at 50Hz? No good telling me DLP is better if it's only half a solution.
post #90 of 500
Well this discussion has left the track for quite some distance now.

I would agree with Terry on this subject.
I think that everyone can agree that the Faroudja isn't that bad on the other hand since the Sharp+Momitsu basicly have no A/D-D/A conversions it's a no brainer to guess that no or few artifacts would be present if everything is kept in the digital domain.
The sharp+momi.. is a valid solution and probably something that many will use or other solutions.
But for the sake of testing, why not choose an HTPC since it only involves one D/A conversion ?
Or a SDI player with a SDI Scaler.
That would to me make a more interesting test then comparing to some extent apples and oranges.

If it were a sound test no one would first take the output from a CD players output, put into a A/D converter then D/A it to a receiver/amplifier no matter how high end it is.
Then compare it with a CD-player take the Digital Output's directly into a amplifier and call it even. That would also make it apples and oranges.

I have all the respect for Guy and I can live with the non-scientific approach and instead choose a maybe-a-consumer-setup-approach.
It's fun to read about but I wouldn't call it a fair shootout which was the thread starters question.
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