San Francisco, CA - OTA - Page 102

A minor addition to Larry's note: The 4228 is highly directional, indeed. However, the need for a rotor is not axiomatic, as it depends on whether or not you can find a single direction in which to point the 4228 such that it can pick out a strong enough "primary" signal (which may actually be a reflection from something rather than the direct beam from the transmitter) for each of the stations of interest. You may find a single sweet spot and not need a rotor, it all depends on the minute details of your receiving site.

E.g., I don't have a rotor and I am not in line-of-sight with the Sutro tower because of the Belmont hills to my north. My antenna (about 5 feet above my roof line) is pointed upward at about 10-degree tilt at the sky above Mt. Sutro and I have a CM 7777 mast-mounted amplifier. This configuration gives me pretty reliable reception of most S.F. DTV stations, as well as Ch 54.x, 48.x, and 36.x to the east, nearly all of the time. I'm usually missing only Ch 20.x and 44.1, which are both at lower than average power, so far, and there seems to be no other direction from my roof in which they're received any better.

Thanks, Larry.

No, antennaweb.org for my address does not show KTEH 54 and KRCB 22 for me at all. It does show (in the BLUE area) 36, 67, 8, 14, 31.1, and 35, and only 35 in the VIOLET area.

Query: When you say "54.1 has exactly the same programming as 9.1," do you mean same programming at the same time ALWAYS?

Another issue: On two nights I have had trouble with channel KPIX 5.1 breaking up and showing a significantly lower percentage on the built-in signal meter than the other channels.

Question: If KPIX 5.1 comes from the same tower (Sutro?) as the other 100% stations, why does it alone seem to be troublesome when the others never are?

Yes, prezackly.
Multipath interference. The tower is much bigger than UHF wavelengths, so different transmitter antennas on the tower are different places to the UHF beams between there and your antenna.

I live in Sunnyvale just north of San Jose. A signal level below 35% on my Panasonic PC77U is where my reception gets sketchy and I lose the digital signal completely. Digital 54-3 (KTEH) comes in with a strong signal above 75% and provides audio content, but there is no picture, just a black screen. This is the only channel that does this. Anybody here who lives around the San Jose/SF area can confirm that 54-3 is or is not, in fact, broadcasting video on this channel? From the audio, it seems the 54-3 programming is the same as analog 9, but who wants to watch a weak analog signal? My TV is new, so I want to find out if it is my TV, or just no video signal transmission on 54-3. Thanks.

5.28pm, I am only getting audio on 54-3. Your TV is fine.

The digital transmitter for KGO has failed. They had a crawl on their analog channel saying that due to transmitter problems, HD programming is not available and will return as soon as possible.

I wanted to see the final show of "Duel", so I actually watched KGO analog for the first time in ages.

Larry
SF

[quote=DawnSun;12570949]Thanks, Larry.

No, antennaweb.org for my address does not show KTEH 54 and KRCB 22 for me at all. It does show (in the BLUE area) 36, 67, 8, 14, 31.1, and 35, and only 35 in the VIOLET area.

Query: When you say "54.1 has exactly the same programming as 9.1," do you mean same programming at the same time ALWAYS?[unquote]

I'm surprised to see the Monterey-Salinas stations in your list from antennaweb. If you had an antenna pointed south for 36 and 54 you might get more than expected! If you're not aware of it, I have a list of all the digital stations on my web site showing their transmitter locations... both the present line up and what it will be like after the analog shut down in 2009. You'll find it at: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html

As for the duplicate programming, KQED formed Northern California Public Television and brought both the San Jose and Watsonville PBS stations into their fold. The HD channels of all three stations, 9.1, 54.1 and 25.1 all simulcast the same programming from 5 pm to 6 am. They are off the air and show a blue ID slate during the other hours.

As TPeterson said, multipath is most likely the cause of your problems with KPIX-DT. The only way to fix that would be to move your antenna to a different location... higher, lower... or horizontal along the roof... or change to a different one.

I have three antennas on my roof - the CM 4228 on a rotor that I mentioned earlier, an AntennasDirect DB15 pointed upwards at an angle at Sutro Tower and a huge Antennas Direct D9000 that covers FM-VHF and UHF, also on a rotor - and I see different results from all of them. They're about the same height, but are separated by about 20 feet. Signals from the same towers produce different signal strengths on the three antennas. Some stations are better, some are worse. This could be due to multipath, location, type of antenna, or something else maybe... I don't know... but some of the differences are quite drastic. I have the feeds from each antenna coming into an A-B-C switch so I can easily change from one to another for comparison purposes.

I enjoy playing with the reception of radio and TV signals. It's part of my radio-TV-ham radio hobby to see what I can get, compare antennas, watch conditions change, etc. For most viewers, they could care less, but I find it to be a very fascinating adventure. I just wished I lived further from Sutro so I wouldn't have to put up with that overload of RF. It definitely hinders my reception of more distant stations.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Larry
SF

Did anyone else have problems with the center channel sound missing from time to time on both, or maybe all three football games yesterday? If not, I'm starting to worry that my AV receiver is starting to fail me.

I watched most of the Raiders' game (brain damaged for sure) and the surround audio seemed a bit strange, as in too much crowd noise from rear channels, but I think there were no missing channels--at least, the announcers' voices were always there....

54.3 is just like you are seeing.

Since it's start it has been very intermittent.

I do not know if this is planned or just someone asleep at the switch.

Or perhaps just not monitoring the output of 54.x at KQED headquarters.

I agree that 54.3 when it is on is vastly better than the poor display my HDTV shows of KQED 9 Analog.

Latest missing video and (most of the time) audio on 54.3 has lasted for about a week so far, starting on the day Sutro DT (all Channels) was down all day and part of the next day.

It returned last time when I posted a message here many weeks ago, perhaps these messages will make it reappear.

Stephen H. Fischer

While the following list does not say, x.1 on all three transmitters is the same.

Current NCPB Digital Channel Line-ups:

KQED-DT
KQED HD - DT9.1 (5pm-6am) / Comcast 709 (24/7)
KQED Life-Encore - DT9.2 / Comcast 189 (24/7)
KQED World - DT9.3 / Comcast 190 (24/7)
KQED V-Me - DT9.4 (6am-5pm) / Comcast 191 (24/7)
KQED Kids - DT9.5 / Comcast 192 (24/7)

KTEH-DT
DT54.1 - HD Service 5pm-6am
DT54.2 - simulcast of KTEH Analog (24/7)
DT54.3 - simulcast of KQED Analog (24/7)
DT54.4 - V-Me (24/7)

KQET-DT
DT25.1 - HD Service (5pm-6am)
DT25.2 - Life-Encore (6am-5pm)
DT25.3 - World (24/7)
DT25.4 - V-Me (24/7)
DT25.5 - simulcast of KTEH Analog (24/7)

I spoke with a woman about the lack of video on 54-3. She spoke to a tech, then got back to me and told me that they are having temporary difficulties on 54-3 today. When I informed her that the video has been down the better part of the last week (as far as I know) she sounded truly surprised, and asked for my location so she could get this back to the techs. I'm sure those there who need to know and can do something about it already know, but sure wish they would get it fixed. If they can't display video, instead of playing the audio only, they should just run an audio notification of the state of affairs so viewers can be informed instead of left in the dark.

Adding my voice to this... Not sure how can KQED/KTEH engineers not be aware that they do not broadcast video on 54-3... Hope someone from PBS is following this thread and will do something about it...

IV

Thanks for replying. After further research by googling I found that the center channel loss is a known problem with my JVC 8030 AVC receiver along with the volume going down to zero occasionally which mine does too.
Sure looks like I need to upgrade to another receiver. Darn, I spend way too much money on this stuff. Thinking of the Onkyo 705 now.

[I posed this question on another thread, but it was ignored through 40 subsequent posts! Perhaps I can receive a quick answer here.]

My sole signal choice is OTA via a 20-year- old, sagging Radio Shack rooftop antenna. I'm amazed to receive about 40 stations, both analog and digital, on my very new 42PZ700U.

But I'm greedy. I want at least two more PBS stations that are both distant (weak) and in a different direction from Sutro Tower.

Question: If I replace the current roof antenna with a ChannelMaster 4228 (which I understand is UHF and is highly directional), will it nevertheless give me the analog (VHF) channels also? Or does UHF mean only UHF?

My VCR requires an analog signal and, also, sometimes the digital stations shut down for their own reasons.

You'd receive the VHF stations but the lower VHF band ones (2-6) are noticeably weaker than 7-12 are. The 4228 is progressively both less sensitive and less directional as you go down in frequency from the top of the VHF band. Depending on how strong those low VHF stations are at your location you may or may not find the 4228 acceptable for them on its own. (But this is a heck of a time to invest in a new VHF antenna in these parts, with the shutdown coming up in a little over a year)

The 4228 will do a good job with the higher VHF channels. It works well for channel 11, but falls off in gain as you go down in frequency. If you are looking for channels 2-5, it's not likely to work.

I have a 4228 in Rohnert Park, about 50 miles from Sutro, and I get KNTV just fine on channel 11. My analog 7 looks fine as well, so I expect that channel KGO will be just fine when they revert their digital signal to channel 7.

THANKS TPeterson and Gregg2.

And, Bobby, what do you mean about analog channel 7 when you say, "when they revert their digital signal to channel 7 . . . "?

Do you mean their digital signal will be a VHF station in the 2009 switchover? So we just may need a VHF antenna then also? I thought I'd be able to switch to just a UHF antenna and rest easy. Hmmmmmm.

Yes, KGO will move their digital signal to RF channel 7 after the analog cutoff. They will save a lot of money with the lower PG&E bills transmitting on 7 than 24. KNTV will be the only other major bay area station transmitting digital on VHF after the cutoff with their existing RF channel 12 service. Well, not the only one... KSBW will be on RF channel 8 from Fremont Peak and there are several that will be transmitting high VHF from Walnut Grove.

On a side note, my Winegard PR8800 in my Cupertino townhouse attic got great reception on analog 7, but 9 was terrible. Good thing KQED is not going to move down to 9.

- Mike

I am new to HDTV, have no cable, satellite, etc. I am using the same VHF/UHF antenna I have used for years, and am quite happy with the digital channel selection and signal strength I get using the old antenna. This recent talk the past several posts causes me a little concern:




Perhaps in my ignorance I misunderstand, and am worrying for nothing, but will the antenna I use now, which presently gives me good signal on analog and digital, still give me the same level of reception after The Switch, or will signals be moving on to frequencies for which my present antenna will not work? Thanks for enlightening.

You shouldn't have to worry at all, Turbo. The stations will either be on the same channel they're on now or on one now used for analog. If you're getting good reception now, you will later after the analog shutdown.

KGO will be moving from 24 to 7, as has been mentioned. KTVU and KRON will be moving, but will be on UHF, channels 44 and 38 respectively.

For a complete list of where the stations will be AFTER the analog shut down, check the channel list on my web site. The top of the page has the present assignments, but below it, toward the bottom, is a list of where stations will be post February 17, 2009. You'll find it at: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html

DawnSun... you'll need to get a digital to analog converter if you plan to use that VCR in a little over a year. I wouldn't invest in a VHF antenna. The CM4228 should work fine for you for channels 7 and 12. If you need analog now though, I wouldn't get rid of your present antenna. You won't get very good reception on channels 2, 4, and 5 analog with the 4228.

If antennaweb.org or the other TV station locator... http://www.tvfool.com/ don't show channels 22 and 54 on your list, I doubt very much if you'll get them. The analog stations are very snowy and I don't get the digitals (23 and 50) here in San Francisco at all. By the way, TV Fool is quite good. It lists the stations by how well you should receive them.

Larry
SF

Thanks.

OK, the way seems clearer now. I'll keep this old antenna until the switchover in 2009.

Digital KGO 7.1: In 2009 I'll consider installing a ChannelMaster 4228 to see if I receive any extra stations. (And perhaps to improve on what I have now.) As I read these posts, the CM4228 will pick up digital KGO 7.1 when it moves from UHF 24 to VHF 7. So no need to add a VHF antenna.

Channels 22 and 54: TVFool does show these analog stations in the gray area. It also shows digital 54.1. So there is a chance at least that a new CM 4228 would receive them.

Channel 60.1: Can anyone explain a wee mystery? TVFool and AntennaWeb both show digital KCSM as 60.1, but I receive it as 43.1 (and 43.2 and 43.3). All the other stations seem to appear as their virtual numbers in my TV's scan. Why this discrepancy?

BTW, KCSM comes in very well. I'll have to resubscribe. (I bailed when they dropped us analog troglodytes some years ago.) I just wished they had classical music instead of jazz. Never was able to get into jazz, although I got close to liking Bix Beiderbecke.

The 4228 is very directional and in order to receive 22 and 54 you will need to install an antenna rotator to aim at their transmitters. If you are receiving KQED today on channel 30, it has the exact same programming as channel 54. There is no need to receive both. Channel 22 is a PBS station in Rohnert Park/Cotati as has similar programming but does not have anything in High Definition.

KCSM is unique. Their analog transmitter used to be on Mt. San Bruno. Their digital transmitter is at Sutro Tower. The landlords for the top of Mt. San Bruno would not give KCSM a short lease... they wanted something like a 20 year lease and the station had no need for more than about 3 years. The college wasn't able to afford taking a 20 year lease for a 3 year usage period, so they got permission from the FCC to move their analog station on channel 60 to the college campus in San Mateo where they run very low power. The station provided means for Comcast, Dish, DirecTV, etc. to take the channel 43 signal in place of the channel 60 signal. Since the signal on channel 60 is pretty much non-existant except in the city of San Mateo, they use 43 for their PSIP info and for TV listings.

KNTV channel 11/12 took over the old KCSM transmitter site and tower on Mt. San Bruno.

Larry
SF

I'm not picking up KGO D07-1, ABC channel 7 digital right now, analog OK. Anyone else, or is it just me?

I lost KGO-DT during the Capital One pregame show. They better get back on the air for the Rose Bowl!

I'm in Daly City, direct line of site nad I'm not getting 7-1 either

Hello,

I could use some advice. We use a directional antenna pointed at Sutro tower to receive digital off-air signal. It is whatever-plexed into our satellite coax. We tune with our DirecTV HD Tivo.

For months, we have been having problems tuning any of the KQED channels. Today we tried to troubleshoot the situation. When I first started the signal test, we had 13 peak signal of frequency 30, after we mucked with the direction, we have 0 on all frequencies. The weird thing is we are receiving many other stations just fine 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 7.1 even 14.1 which is coming from another direction.

So, where do we go from here? We really want to watch KQED-HD. If we can get this to work, we are probably going to dump the Satellite

Thanks!

Katy Franz
Sunnyvale, CA

I'm in San Francisco Richmond district. No over the air for KGO 7.1 either.

Katy, it sounds as though you happen to have your antenna in/near a dead spot for D30 caused by multipath interference. You'll probably find that moving the antenna laterally or vertically by a few feet will make a difference (although you may find that you've then lost some of the others that you now receive OK). The drill is to keep trying new spots until you find the sweet one that gives you the most of the desired channels.