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San Francisco, CA - OTA - Page 133

post #3961 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

From Broadcast Engineering
http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv...shutdown-0206/

... The new date of June 12 will add 84 days to the transition in order to assist viewers not yet ready. This also means that stations waiting until June 12 will also have higher electric bills and possible construction delays on permanent DTV facilities. As a result, Sutro Tower has just started a multimillion dollar project to add a new main and standby community antennas for most all stations. ...

Is it only me who think that it does not make sense? Why start a multi-million dollar project for an 84 days delay?
post #3962 of 10422
How was everyone's reception lastnight? My OTA on 5.1 looked great. No pixelation or macros of any sort. I see over in the Grammy thread, many people complaining about compression and artifacts last night.

The audio was OK also. A few of the numbers had some good seperation and the rear surrounds kicked in pretty well with some of the numbers with horns.

I didn't compare it with my Dish feed though.
post #3963 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelation View Post

Is it only me who think that it does not make sense? Why start a multi-million dollar project for an 84 days delay?

I think that "As a result..." is out of place. The stations at Sutro have been planning the antenna project for many years. They couldn't install permanent antennas for the digital stations on the tower due to weight considerations, so installed the temporary combined-use digital antenna they've been using for the past 10+ years. It's been their plan to wait for the transition, then remove all of the antennas for the analog transmitters and put up new permanent antennas for digital.

The project is already in progress. They're presently installing the new auxiliary antennas for digital and were supposed to start on the rest of the project in a couple of weeks. Now that part has had to be delayed for four months. The project was supposed to be completed by October of this year. Now???? Who knows.

You can see diagrams of the present antenna arrangement and the new antenna arrangement on my web site:
http://www.larrykenney.com/sutrotwr.html

Larry
SF
post #3964 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoizme View Post

How was everyone's reception lastnight? My OTA on 5.1 looked great. No pixelation or macros of any sort. I see over in the Grammy thread, many people complaining about compression and artifacts last night.

The audio was OK also. A few of the numbers had some good seperation and the rear surrounds kicked in pretty well with some of the numbers with horns.

I didn't compare it with my Dish feed though.

Looked great here! The microphones for the people talking and making announcements seemed to have more presence than some of the mics used for the singing, but other than that, it sounded fine. I watched KPIX on my feed from Dish Network.

Larry
SF
post #3965 of 10422
The deadline has passed for stations to notify the FCC that they will be shutting down their analog transmitter on February 17. (The deadline was 11:59 pm EST Monday.) We just searched the files for all of the stations in this area and found the following:

Stations signing off their analog transmitter on February 17 are:
KOFY 20 San Francisco
KICU 36 San Jose
KCNS 38 San Francisco
KION 46 Monterey

There was a notice that KRON digital would be operating at half power on channel 57 beginning January 5th so that they could modify half of their transmitter for channel 38. At the transition they will come up on channel 38 at half power, then modify the other half of their transmitter and return to full power on channel 38 at a later date.

There was another notice that KTNC would be turning off their channel 63 digital transmitter on January 12, so that they could install their new transmitter and antenna for channel 14. They said they would be ready to go on with the new facility on February 18. (With the transition delay and KDTV analog staying on the air until 6/12, it looks like KTNC will not have a digital signal on the air for four more months now.)

As of this time, President Obama has still not signed the DTV Delay bill. You can check the status of the bill at:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:S352:

(Just a thought: Can you imagine the craziness that will occur if the president vetoes the bill?)

Larry
SF
post #3966 of 10422
P.S. to my previous note... KOFY said they would be doing Nightlite service after February 17.

Larry
SF
post #3967 of 10422
Thanks for the update Larry. The only one of interest to me is KICU which has always been difficult on 52 but their analog signal is usually decent. At least I'll have something to check on the 18th.

Chuck
post #3968 of 10422
The Mercury News ran an article on the topic yesterday:

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_11640123

They mentioned KICU and KOFY, but not KCNS or KION.

Scott
post #3969 of 10422
Quote:


Looked great here! The microphones for the people talking and making announcements seemed to have more presence than some of the mics used for the singing, but other than that, it sounded fine. I watched KPIX on my feed from Dish Network.

KPIX is also available as a distant network on Dish Network for those that live in bad terrain or have a hard time getting their local signal. KPIX along with KTVT Dallas/Fort Worth and WGCL in Atlanta are available via All American Direct. In any case, since I live in Southern Stanislaus County (Newman), the towers from Walnut Grove seem pretty weak, however the towers from Auberry Mountain gets good reception, I'm able to watch the Fresno stations pretty well. But since the company determines where my physical location, I'm able to watch all the 4 networks from SF, DFW and ATL.
post #3970 of 10422
The FCC has released a complete list of full power stations in the US by DMA showing all of the stations that have already shut down, or will be shutting down, their analog transmitter before or on February 17.

There are two stations in this area on the FCC list that weren't in the list that I sent out last night:
KCBA 35 Salinas
KFTY 50 Santa Rosa

So the complete list for the SF Bay Area/Sacramento/Stockton/Salinas/Monterey is:
KOFY 20 San Francisco
KCBA 35 Salinas
KICU 36 San Jose
KCNS 38 San Francisco
KION 46 Monterey
KFTY 50 Santa Rosa

No stations in Sacramento/Stockton will be shutting down early.

The only station that will be doing Nightlight Service is KOFY 20.

For a complete list of stations nationwide released by the FCC this afternoon download this PDF file:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...A-09-221A5.pdf
Look for the stations printed in red. Those are the ones going off early.

Also, KFTY has submitted an application for a Special Temporary Authority (STA) to move their digital operation to their post-transition channel, moving from channel 54 to channel 32, on February 17. Personally, I don't see how they can do that with KMTP analog still on the air from Sutro.

That's the latest info.

Larry
SF
post #3971 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Also, KFTY has submitted an application for a Special Temporary Authority (STA) to move their digital operation to their post-transition channel, moving from channel 54 to channel 32, on February 17. Personally, I don't see how they can do that with KMTP analog still on the air from Sutro.

I know you mentioned in the other thread that they were 65 miles apart. I wonder how KMTP and KION-DT 32 are getting along at 95 miles apart? I took the 3 FCC coverage maps and overlaid them for KFTY, KMTP, and KION all on channel 32. I hope it's large enough since I had to reduce it a lot to attach it here.

Chuck
LL
post #3972 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

So the complete list for the SF Bay Area/Sacramento/Stockton/Salinas/Monterey is:
KOFY 20 San Francisco
KCBA 35 Salinas
KICU 36 San Jose
KCNS 38 San Francisco
KION 46 Monterey
KFTY 50 Santa Rosa

So Larry, if I were only interested in the present and post digital transmissions, will anything be changing on the 18th? Will I need to re-scan for digital channels prior to the real transition in June?

Thanks,
Scott
post #3973 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottndsky View Post

So Larry, if I were only interested in the present and post digital transmissions, will anything be changing on the 18th? Will I need to re-scan for digital channels prior to the real transition in June?

Thanks,
Scott

To be safe, I'd say yes. Why not?
post #3974 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I know you mentioned in the other thread that they were 65 miles apart. I wonder how KMTP and KION-DT 32 are getting along at 95 miles apart? I took the 3 FCC coverage maps and overlaid them for KFTY, KMTP, and KION all on channel 32. I hope it's large enough since I had to reduce it a lot to attach it here.
Chuck

Wow, I hadn't thought about KION's interference to KMTP. Your map tells a lot! So maybe KFTY will get the okay afterall.

Larry
post #3975 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottndsky View Post

So Larry, if I were only interested in the present and post digital transmissions, will anything be changing on the 18th? Will I need to re-scan for digital channels prior to the real transition in June?
Thanks, Scott

I agree with Bobby, do it to be safe. Besides KFTY moving, as mentioned above, KICU might request an STA to move from channel 52 to 36. I haven't seen one yet, though.

The other stations are already operating digital on their permanent post-transition channels: KCBA on 13, KOFY on 19, KION on 32 and KCNS on 39, so they won't be changing.

Larry
SF
post #3976 of 10422
A question related to the broadcast of digital TVGOS data in the Bay area, and its conversion for analog TVGOS devices using the DTVPal...if you don't know what any of that means, you can skip the question that follows...

Apparently, Gemstar has finally begun broadcasting the specific form of digital TVGOS data that the DTVPal can convert to an analog form of TVGOS data for devices that require it. At least they have in the last couple of days been found to be broadcasting that in several metro areas, because people there have just found that their DTVPals are suddenly operating in the special "TVGOS mode" that converts TVGOS data for use of analog devices.

Has anyone recently found this to be true in the SF area? I know that CBS 5.1 has long been broadcasting the normal digital TVGOS data...in fact people with TVGOS devices that will accept digital TVGOS data have found that they can get the data from 5.1.

The question, for TVGOS devices that require ANALOG TVGOS data, is whether anyone has recently found that their DTVPal now operates in the TVGOS mode for converting TVGOS data to analog form...
post #3977 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

As of this time, President Obama has still not signed the DTV Delay bill. You can check the status of the bill at:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:S352:

(Just a thought: Can you imagine the craziness that will occur if the president vetoes the bill?)

Looks like he signed it...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog_post/digital_delayed/

Scott
post #3978 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottndsky View Post

Looks like he signed it...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog_post/digital_delayed/

Scott

Yup, the transition delay is now official.

Today the FCC put out a list of stations that had requested to shut down their analog signal next Tuesday that they feel should NOT shut down. None of the stations in this area are on the list. The FCC report says that "we have identified 123 stations of the 491 intending to terminate analog service on February 17th whose early termination poses a significant risk of substantial public harm."

They have listed stations mainly where all or most of the stations in the market have requested to go off, leaving no analog service at all.

If you're interested in reading the details and seeing the list, check out these two files:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...FCC-09-7A1.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...FCC-09-7A2.pdf

Larry
SF
post #3979 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

The FCC report says that "we have identified 123 stations of the 491 intending to terminate analog service on February 17th whose early termination poses a significant risk of substantial public harm."

What a bunch of BS. I see Bakersfield and Santa Barbara on the list. I wonder if the FCC thinks these locations are going to experience a hurricane or similar incident where people's lives are at risk if they are not able to watch local TV.

Then they wrote: "Stations listed in the Appendix to this Public Notice may obtain reinstatement of the waiver necessary for them to terminate analog service on February 17, 2009 by certifying to the Commission, not later than the close of business (6:00 pm EST) on Friday, February 13th, that they will individually undertake the measures specified herein as a means of ameliorating the public interest harms that the termination of their analog service would engender."
So if you're one of these stations denied a 2/17/09 cutoff date, I suspect the next step is to obtain the waiver. Of course that deadline is 2/13/09, which keeps everyone as confused as posibble until the last possible moment whether or not they will be allowed to terminate analog broadcasting.
post #3980 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Also, KFTY has submitted an application for a Special Temporary Authority (STA) to move their digital operation to their post-transition channel, moving from channel 54 to channel 32, on February 17. Personally, I don't see how they can do that with KMTP analog still on the air from Sutro.

I'm surprised too but the FCC has granted the STA to KFTY.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....ion_id=1294628

It'll be interesting to see if channel 32 makes it over here better than 54. I hope my antennas are good enough so that KION and KFTY don't interfere with each other.

Chuck
post #3981 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I'm surprised too but the FCC has granted the STA to KFTY.
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....ion_id=1294628

Now that is a surprise! There's sure going to be a lot of interference to both KFTY digital and KMTP analog in the area between the stations. Your map, Chuck, definitely shows the overlap of those two signals, as well as KION to the south. (See Chuck's post above, #3973, for a look at his map.)

Larry
SF
post #3982 of 10422
I have KFTY on right now and they're running an announcement every 10 minutes or so about transitioning on the 17th. They haven't said anything about rescanning on the 18th though.

KMTP analog is almost non existent up here so my issue is how much interference will there be between KFTY and KION and if I'll be able to receive both, one, or neither.

This mornings weather is a great time to have OTA. It's snowing like crazy here at 2500' and the E* dish is useless unless I brush the snow off every 5 minutes. I get about 30 minutes on the Wildblue dish until I have to brush it off. OTA antennas are completely unaffected by the snow.

Chuck
post #3983 of 10422
I see that KFTY's website has big graphics that say, "The Bay Area's TV50 Digital 199." I assume the latter is their channel number on Comcast cable, but that might confuse some people when they begin OTA digital broadcasts on channel 32.


Patty
post #3984 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by wintertime View Post

I see that KFTY's website has big graphics that say, "The Bay Area's TV50 Digital 199." I assume the latter is their channel number on Comcast cable, but that might confuse some people when they begin OTA digital broadcasts on channel 32.Patty

When, and if, they do a channel scan they will see Channel 50-1 which PSIP will decode from Channel 32. No different than it is today except they are presently on Channel 54.
post #3985 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

This mornings weather is a great time to have OTA. It's snowing like crazy here at 2500' and the E* dish is useless unless I brush the snow off every 5 minutes. I get about 30 minutes on the Wildblue dish until I have to brush it off. OTA antennas are completely unaffected by the snow.

Chuck

Haha. Wow I never thought about how snow might affect those little dishes. Do they sell some sort of heater kit for those things to prevent that from happening? I suppose a radome of some type could be a help (as long it's of a shape that makes it hard for snow to collect on it)?
post #3986 of 10422
Larry,
Any thoughts as to why from Martinez
with my "deep fringe" antenna and 7777 amp I can get 2, 4, 7, 9, 36, 43, and 44 with the antenna pointed at Sutro, but can't get 5 or 20 at all? Five analog and 20 analog do come in but not great. Really strange is 44 analog is unwatchable but digital is perfect.
Lee
post #3987 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by slk230 View Post

Larry,
Any thoughts as to why from Martinez
with my "deep fringe" antenna and 7777 amp I can get 2, 4, 7, 9, 36, 43, and 44 with the antenna pointed at Sutro, but can't get 5 or 20 at all? Five analog and 20 analog do come in but not great. Really strange is 44 analog is unwatchable but digital is perfect.
Lee

Do you see anything on analog 19 or 29? There are stations on those frequencies in the Sacramento area, and those would conflict with reception of those two channels specifically.

- Trip
post #3988 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Do you see anything on analog 19 or 29? There are stations on those frequencies in the Sacramento area, and those would conflict with reception of those two channels specifically.

- Trip

I've been telling people on the Sacramento thread for months that this is their problem, especially with KPIX. I think people are unaware just how much co-channel interference there is. We just have to wait until June 12th.

Chuck
post #3989 of 10422
Never tried. I'm usually watching the Sac stations as they come in better, however KOVR still has digital problems and it would be nice to be able to swing the antenna around and get KPIX as a back-up. With this antenna I can get 12 analog out of Chico and others at far distances. (8 out of Reno and Salinas. When the skip is in I have gotten signals from Amarillo, Tx)

It's been my experience that when going from analog to digital carriers, your coverage area/range drops by half at the same power. I noticed the FCC is now allowing more "cell-like" antenna systems to make up for the reduced coverage area changes.
Lee K6LW
post #3990 of 10422
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby94928 View Post

When, and if, they do a channel scan they will see Channel 50-1 which PSIP will decode from Channel 32.

Yeah, I know, but I was wondering whether anyone might try to punch in 199 instead of 50. Hopefully not!


Patty
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