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San Francisco, CA - OTA - Page 158

post #4711 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muse View Post

TitanTV.com doesn't show golf at noon either day for 11.1. Am I right in assuming that Channel 11 is the same as 11.1, in TitanTV (NBC)?

Zap2it.com shows that Golf was on from 12-2pm today and tomorrow. Yes, 11 is the same as 11.1 although 11 refers to an analog channel that no longer exists.
post #4712 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muse View Post

The Oakland Tribune and S.F. Chronicle indicate that the U.S. Open golf first and second rounds are broadcast on Channels 11, 3 and 8 at noon, Today and tomorrow. ... Am I right in assuming that Channel 11 is the same as 11.1, in TitanTV (NBC)?

I can't speak to what TitanTV shows, because I don't have it. But KNTV's website says that they aired golf coverage at noon today:

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/station/tv..._listings.html

And it shows the same event on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.


Patty
post #4713 of 10437
I know some analog antennas were not level across the band they covered--that is, they peaked where the visual and aural carriers were. This would result in an uneven curve on a spectrum analyzer (any help on this theory, Calaveras?) and could be why KGO is replacing the antenna.

- Trip
post #4714 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEEPFRINGEGUY View Post

I just recently learned about the fact that KQCA/KMAX are multiplexing their signals into one single antenna. It's got me confused. KMAX (21) is higher wattage than KQCA (46) and yet I
get KQCA great; it's one of my best stations; but, KMAX (21) is only good late at night or early in the morning. I guess it's the 91XG. It has lower gain on the lower UHF stations and higher gain above ch. 40. I didn't think that the channel frequency within
UHF would make that much difference; but now think that this has a great deal to do with my KMAX issue...

A friend located about 5 miles from here can receive KMAX fine but not KQCA. A look on the spectrum analyzer shows KQCA is simply too weak. I don't know what to make of this.

Chuck
post #4715 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I know some analog antennas were not level across the band they covered--that is, they peaked where the visual and aural carriers were. This would result in an uneven curve on a spectrum analyzer (any help on this theory, Calaveras?) and could be why KGO is replacing the antenna.

- Trip

I suppose that's possible. My total off the wall guess? Their current antenna has been there for a long time and since every other antenna is being replaced, they're replacing theirs too so everyone has brand new hardware.

Chuck
post #4716 of 10437
Well, I was just asking since I think I remember you have a spectrum analyzer. I thought maybe you'd be able to see if it looked any less flat than normal DTV signals do.

- Trip
post #4717 of 10437
For any Bay Area folks in Oakland, I'm getting excellent reception with an old "rabbit ears" antenna that uses telescoping rods and built-in amp. (It was originally purchased from CCrane 12-15 years ago) The following stations are received with signal strength between 85-100 with the antenna inside a closet. Granted I'm not far from the transmitters, but the conditions are not ideal, with a lot of trees around.

Using a good indoor antenna should provide most Oakland residents with excellent reception.

2.1 KTVU-DT
2.2 KTVU-SD
4.1 KRON-SD
4.2 KRON-HD
5.1 KPIX-DT
7.1 KGO-HD
7.2 LIVWELL
7.3 KGOACCU
9.1 KQED-HD
9.2 KTEH-DT
9.3 WORLD
11.1 KNTV-HD
11.2 NBC Wes
11.3 US
14.1 KDTV-DT
20.1 KOFY-HD
20.4 Azteca
26.1 KTSF-D1
26.2 KTSF-D2
32.1 KMTP-DT
32.2 WorlsCh
32.4 WTV
32.5 NTD
36.1 KICU DT
36.2 KICU SD
38.1 KCNS
38.2 KCNS-2
44.1 KBCW-DT
48.1 KSTS-SD
48.2 KTSTS-HD
54.1 KTEH
54.2 KQED
54.3 LIFE
54.4 KIDS
54.5 V-me
60.1 KCSM
60.2 KCSMMHz
60.3 Jazz-TV
65.1 ION
65.2 qubo
65.3 IONLife
65.4 Worship
66.1 KFSF-DT
66.2 KDTV-DT
post #4718 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Well, I was just asking since I think I remember you have a spectrum analyzer. I thought maybe you'd be able to see if it looked any less flat than normal DTV signals do.

- Trip

Oh, I missed that. Well the problem is that perfectly flat received digital signals are the exception in my experience. Seems like they always tilt up or down a few dB. KGO tilts down towards the high end here but it's a 2 edge path so it's hard say what's going on. I'll take a look when the new antenna comes on line.

Chuck
post #4719 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastmerc View Post

....seeking a new antenna so that I can once again receive Channel 7, KGO..... Why did they move when it was working fine.....?

Two reasons: branding... so that they can be ABC 7 on 7, and the cost of operation. It's saving them bundles of money on PG&E bills operating at 24 kW ERP than on UHF channel 24 with 561 kW.

Believe it or not, they have better coverage with their signal on channel 7 than they did on channel 24. You just have to have the equivalent VHF antenna to what you have for UHF to get the same signal or probably even better. They signal is getting out over 100 miles from Sutro. There have been lot of good reports from distant viewers.

Larry
SF
post #4720 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I attended the KOVR analog shutdown tour on June 12th. I learned a few things that may apply to the Sutro facility.

First thing is that I think it is extremely unlikely that the KGO antenna can be used for any UHF channel. I did find out that antennas can be stacked on top of one another. But looking at Larry's post construction diagram of the Sutro tower it looks like the KGO antenna is mounted on top with the KBCW antenna side mounted below it.

Another thing that can be done is for there to be a shared antenna. KQCA, KMAX, and KCRA have what they call a "community antenna." I've attached below a photo showing part of the combiner room for those 3 stations. The copper piping is all coax and the black stuff is waveguide.

So now perusing the FCC database in conjunction with Larry's Sutro diagram, the following could be possible. KPIX, KRON, & KTVU are listed with the same antenna height. They could be sharing one antenna. KQED, KCNS, & KCSM are listed with the same antenna height. The could be sharing. KMTP is listed at a lower height but with the KQED group on the diagram so I don't know what's going on there. KOFY & KFSF look like they might be sharing a side mounted antenna.

With so many stations on one tower, antenna sharing would greatly cut down on the number of coax pipes going up the tower.

Chuck

KGO will have a new antenna all to itself, atop the same tower. It can't share with anyone else since it's the only VHF station up there. VHF and UHF signals are not compatible. The new antenna will actually be 8 feet higher than the analog antenna its replacing, and it will have beam tilt, I understand, so maybe that's where they think the improvements will come from.

Chuck could be right on KPIX 29, KRON 38 and KTVU 44 sharing one new antenna, or it could be three separate panels. Likewise for KQED 30, KMTP 33, KCNS 39 and KCSM 43 on the other tower. I haven't heard anything on that. I'll do some checking and see if I can find out.

Larry
SF
post #4721 of 10437
Saronian... you're getting everything from Sutro. Mt. San Bruno and the South Bay, so you must be in a really good location. Your indoor antenna is doing super for you.

Larry
SF
post #4722 of 10437
Here's a dumb question:

I keep seeing people saying that Sutro is replacing the old "analog" antennas with new "digital" antennas.

From what I understand, there's no difference. The antennas are the same regardless. Or perhaps this is only true of receiving antennas, and perhaps transmitting antennas can be optimized for digital? Or maybe optimized for some of the new bands/freqs of some of the stations?

Or is this just improper terminology being bandied about? Perhaps just new/improved state of the art antennas to replace the older ones, period?
post #4723 of 10437
Technically, most analog transmit antennas can be reused for digital, but some of them are not level across the 6 MHz channel, (they peaked at the aural and visual carriers of the analog) and if you don't have a level curve, a station cannot be decoded as easily.

The other possibility is that the antennas at the top of the tower are tuned for certain frequencies and thus now that the channels have all moved around (for example, a KFSF-66 antenna is now up there wasting space) they're going to change antennas to optimize the use of space up there.

Or maybe they just want to replace the old antennas.

- Trip
post #4724 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

A friend located about 5 miles from here can receive KMAX fine but not KQCA. A look on the spectrum analyzer shows KQCA is simply too weak. I don't know what to make of this.

Chuck

Now that makes sense to me. Because, according to Bob, KMAX is at 825kW; and as best I can tell, KQCA is at 600kW +/-. That's the way it should be!
post #4725 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

At the moment they are the only Sutro station on a tower top antenna. Let us know what happens tomorrow or Friday when they switch to the low Aux antenna.

According to the message scrolling across the top of KGO's broadcast they did the switch. If I do see any difference it's for the better, the signal comes in real strong. KRON is still really bad.
post #4726 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhiskers View Post

According to the message scrolling across the top of KGO's broadcast they did the switch. If I do see any difference it's for the better, the signal comes in real strong. KRON is still really bad.

I'm surprised to be getting KGO (7) here in Santa Rosa, if they have switched to the aux., which it appears they have. It's coming in very close to the cliff for me now; about 30% lower signal; but, it's pretty steady at about 22%. It's interesting, I wouldn't normally be able to "lock" it now at this signal level, but because I already had it locked when it was at a good medium strength, my tuner lets me view the station.
post #4727 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

OTOH, I find myself somewhat frustrated with the broadcasters absolute commitment to maximized analog up to the day of the transition. It's almost as though they weren't really serious about digital. Sutro (and lots of others) could have switched analog to their backup antennas last year and performed all this antenna work last summer and been maximized for digital at the transition. All the while they could have been pushing digital in their PSAs pointing out that their analog signals are reduced and viewers should be switching to digital now. Instead we have a situation where viewers are not getting maximized digital signals AND there's no analog as a backup. It'll be up to 4 months before stations are running their maximum post transition facilities. 2008 should have been the actual transition year with 2009 simply being the year that analog terminated.Chuck

Chuck, That is exactly what they should have done and it kinda boggles the mind that they didn't look at it this way. If I had been in charge I certainly would have done it as you suggest.

I suppose on the flip side, if even one station refused to go along with this plan, then no one would be able to do so.

I just came back from Helena, MT and up there most network stations had switched earlier in the year, probably the Feb. date with only one, ABC failing to make the switch even now. It is a much smaller market so I guess that each station could operate independently of the others. My daughter was a bit POed that not all made the switch as she had to connect her antenna directly to the TV, bypassing the converter box when she wanted to watch the unswitched channel. I advised that she could have installed a simple switch in the interim but she said she was just too lazy to do it.

Duluth, MN switched a long time ago. I gave my sis a converter box so they have been watching the expanded channels for some time now.

It could have been done here!!!!!!!!!!
post #4728 of 10437
I am getting KGO here in San Jose with my CM 4221 antenna now.
Although the signal is at only 57% on my Dish Vip722.
post #4729 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by chibi View Post

I am getting KGO here in San Jose with my CM 4221 antenna now.
Although the signal is at only 57% on my Dish Vip722.

Where in San Jose?
post #4730 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsdon View Post

Where in San Jose?

I am near Hwy 280/Saratoga ave. Zip code 95129
post #4731 of 10437
Here's a pretty nice set of coverage maps for the Sac. stations I came across in my travels:

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_...Modesto_CA.pdf

Here's S.F:
http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_...an_Jose_CA.pdf
post #4732 of 10437
Just noticed that KCSM is airing 1080i on digital channel 60.4, I don't know what the physical channel and subchannel is though. Right now it's just showing a continuous loop of the digital conversion promo.
post #4733 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhiskers View Post

Just noticed that KCSM is airing 1080i on digital channel 60.4, I don't know what the physical channel and subchannel is though. Right now it's just showing a continuous loop of the digital conversion promo.

Hi,

And the SE said they never would.

I am having trouble updating my tuners so I can capture a screen shot.

My poorest tuner gets 60.4 just fine.

Is the PSID good?

SHF
post #4734 of 10437
Well it's gone now, but didn't dream it and have the picture as proof. The last time I scanned was earlier in the week, so the channel must have been active for at least a few days. I noticed it earlier when they put up some SMPTE bars with a moving white box. I tried to tune in the channel with the HDHomeRun but it absolutely refused to see the channel even though the Samsung STB was tuning it in perfectly. I wonder if the channel was never intended to go out on the airwaves.

The KCSM website is difficult to navigate, they don't even acknowledge the Jazz TV channel exists, just the radio part (although what seems to be on the Jazz channel is just a slide with changing text and current temperature).
post #4735 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWhiskers View Post

Well it's gone now, but didn't dream it and have the picture as proof

Hi,

Yes, it is gone now 5:13PM (KCSM 60.4)

That's why I could not add it to my main tuners.

The future looks brighter, we may soon have more than just one PBS HD channel again.

I hope that when it goes live they will id it as 60.1 and not follow KRON!


SHF
post #4736 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Two reasons: branding... so that they can be ABC 7 on 7, and the cost of operation. It's saving them bundles of money on PG&E bills operating at 24 kW ERP than on UHF channel 24 with 561 kW.

Believe it or not, they have better coverage with their signal on channel 7 than they did on channel 24. You just have to have the equivalent VHF antenna to what you have for UHF to get the same signal or probably even better. They signal is getting out over 100 miles from Sutro. There have been lot of good reports from distant viewers.

Larry
SF

How can KGO drop the strength down to only 24 kW? What is ERP?
post #4737 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFischer1 View Post

Hi,
Yes, it is gone now 5:13PM (KCSM 60.4)
That's why I could not add it to my main tuners.
The future looks brighter, we may soon have more than just one PBS HD channel again.
I hope that when it goes live they will id it as 60.1 and not follow KRON!
SHF

Ironically, I just sent a detailed email message to KQED, because 9.1 is NOT EVEN INCLUDED in the TVGOS listings I am getting from the "legacy" stream via a DTVPal. (If you don't know what this is about, don't ask! You don't want to know...) I'm seeing this omission both on my Sony 250 and on my LG3410a, when I connect either to my DTVPal...It's ironic, because KCSM IS listed for both, as though it is the principal PBS station in the bay area...

But I am curious about whether anyone who knows what I am referring to IS successfully getting listings via the Pal for a version 7 TVGOS unit in the SF area!?

Thanks - Tony
post #4738 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEEPFRINGEGUY View Post

Here's a pretty nice set of coverage maps for the Sac. stations I came across in my travels:

Here's S.F:
http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_...an_Jose_CA.pdf

What is really strange is the last one regarding Ch2. It would appear that it would be the very hardest for me to receive up here in north Santa Rosa but it actually is the only one with a very strong, reliable signal coming from Sutro. I do get ch4 and 11 but not strong enough to count on for viewing.

I sure hope the move to the top of Sutro will result in better signals across the board. In the meantime I have Dish and Comcast basic so not lacking for 'stuff' to watch this summer.
post #4739 of 10437
Like many others in the South Bay, I lost reliable reception of KGO when the station moved from RF channel 24 to 7. I am in Cupertino, and was using a CM4228 8-bay UHF antenna and a CM7777 preamp.

Today I mounted an Antennacraft Y10-7-13 VHF high-band antenna just below the CM4228, and joined the antennas using the CM7777, as shown in the picture below. Now KGO is my strongest signal .

-Dave




LL
post #4740 of 10437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xn0r View Post

Here's a dumb question:

I keep seeing people saying that Sutro is replacing the old "analog" antennas with new "digital" antennas.

From what I understand, there's no difference. The antennas are the same regardless. Or perhaps this is only true of receiving antennas, and perhaps transmitting antennas can be optimized for digital? Or maybe optimized for some of the new bands/freqs of some of the stations?

Or is this just improper terminology being bandied about? Perhaps just new/improved state of the art antennas to replace the older ones, period?

Most of the "analog" antennas aren't any good because they're tuned to the wrong channels, not because they were used for analog. The antennas for 2, 4, 5, 9, 20, 32, etc. are all useless now, so they're being replaced by new antennas tuned to 7, 19, 29, 30, 33, 34, 38, 39, 43, 44 and 45, the channels the stations are now transmitting on.

Channel 7's old analog antenna worked, but it's old and while they're replacing everything else, KGO is getting a new one with the latest features. Once the project is finshed, I think everyone will see improved signals all the way around.

Larry
SF
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